The LoCo Experience
The LoCo Experience is a long-form conversational podcast that dives deep into the journeys of business leaders, entrepreneurs, and changemakers in Northern Colorado. Hosted by Curt Bear, Founder of LoCo Think Tank, the show brings real, raw, and unfiltered conversations—where guests share their successes, struggles, and lessons learned along the way.
LoCo Think Tank is Colorado’s premier business peer advisory organization, founded in Fort Collins to help business owners gain perspective, accountability, and encouragement to grow both personally and professionally. LoCo chapters bring together business owners at all stages of the journey into professionally facilitated peer advisory chapters, led by experienced business veterans. These groups provide a trusted space to share challenges, seek advice, learn togethter, and support each other’s success.
The LoCo Experience Podcast extends this mission beyond the chapter meetings— bringing the wisdom, insights, and stories of local business leaders to a wider audience.
Our triad mission with this podcast is simple:
Inspire through real stories of resilience and success.
Educate by sharing valuable business insights.
Entertain with engaging, unfiltered conversations.
If you love “How I Built This” and the free-flowing style of Joe Rogan - but with a Northern Colorado focus - you’ll enjoy The LoCo Experience! Our closing segment, "The LoCo Experience," asks guests to share their craziest stories — and we get some doozies!
It’s a passion project with purpose, and we invite you to listen, follow, and share, and maybe consider sponsoring. Know someone with a great story? Nominate your favorite business leader for an episode!
The LoCo Experience
EXPERIENCE #222 | Focus, Innovation, and Customization with Murph McIver, Founder and Software Architect at Xeo Software
In this episode of the Loco Experience Podcast, I welcomed Murph McIver into the Studio. Murph is the Founder and Software Architect at Xeo Software, and moved his family from Honolulu to Fort Collins in 2021. We discuss what brought them here, the unique attributes of Fort Collins, and the vibrant business culture. Murph shared insights into his company's founding story and mission to help businesses automate and scale, especially those that have unique needs that off-the-shelf software cannot address.
We delve into the complexities and future of AI in software development, emphasizing its potential to level the playing field for custom software solutions. The conversation transitions to personal reflections, where Murph highlights his focus on lifestyle changes influenced by dandapani’s book - “The Power of Unwavering Focus” and his personal commitment to making significant life enhancements through the power of concentrated thought. I’m sure you’ll enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Murph McIver.
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Music By: A Brother's Fountain
In this episode of the Loco Experience Podcast, I welcome Murph MacGyver into the studio. Murph is the founder and software architect at ZEO Software and moved his family from Honolulu to Fort Collins in 2021. We discussed what brought them here, the unique attributes of Fort Collins and the vibrant business culture. Murph shares insights into his company's founding story and mission to help businesses automate and scale, especially those that have unique needs that off the shelf software cannot address. We delve into the complexities in the future of AI and software development emphasizing its potential, the level of playing field for custom software applications. The conversation transitions to personal reflections where MPH highlights his focus on lifestyle changes influenced by Dan Dani's book, the Power of Unwavering Focus, and his personal commitment to making significant life enhancements through the Power of concentrated thought I'm sure you'll enjoy as I did my conversation with Merck MacGyver. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm here today with Murph Mc Iver, and Murph is the founder and software architect at. ZEO software. You got a nice hat too. I like that brand. Oh, thank you Kirk. Yeah. Um, thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing time. It's a pleasure to be here. So, um, we met each other, what about a year ago now? A year and a half, I forget. Yeah, yeah. Probably about that. Yeah. You, you, you offered to take me, show me around, uh, downtown. Yeah. Old town. We a nice walk. Yeah. And you were relatively new to town from Where did Yeah, so we moved from Honolulu. Oh, that's right. Yeah. And, uh, my wife retired from the military. I followed her around, uh, through her military career. So she retired. Yeah. And we could've lived anywhere in the world. I was like, New Zealand sounds neat to me, but she wanted to be closer to la. Okay. And, uh. We picked Fort Collins and I'm so glad we did. I love the, uh, the bike trails here. I feel like it's well governed. Yeah. Um, and the schools are just phenomenal. Why would, did she want to be close to LA for family reasons or? Yeah. Yeah. Her family's there. Okay. Gotcha. Don't actually wanna live in la but she, she wanted to one short flight away, but I, I told her I'll leave anywhere you want baby, but not la I told her, you'll see your family more often if you live here in Fort Collins.'cause when you fly there, they'll be guar, they'll be guaranteed to see you. Right. Yeah. If you live there, you can go a whole year before you see it. Right. Yeah. That's the way life is sometimes. Well, that's cool. Well, welcome to Fort Collins. Glad for, it's always nice when interesting people move here and, and choose it from all the places, you know, that's where it gets that choice city kind of, it, I I, I felt tremendously welcome here. Yeah. And, and, uh, I, it's like a jerk free zone. I, I, you know, I've lived here for, for two and a half years, almost coming up on three years, and, and everybody's just so nice here. And I, I love the networking culture. Um, it, it, it. I, I wish networking was like this everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. People wanna uplift each other. Yeah. It's like when you get here, people're like, oh, how are you doing? Who are you doing? What are you up to? How can I help you? Exactly. Who can I introduce you to? So who, who can, who can I introduce you to? Like who do, who, what does ZE software do for who? So, um, ZEO software, we build custom business applications and we help businesses automate and scale. And so the, the, the key kind of businesses we're looking for are, uh, innovative businesses, businesses that are doing things a little differently. Okay. Uh, because when they're doing things differently, the Offthe Shelf software, uh, is not a great fit and we can, uh, build. Given that a hundred percent solution that where the software works, just like the business works. Mm. Mm-hmm. And then they're better able to scale the company. And that's where you see the huge ROI is when they're able to grow the company because they don't need to hire more people. Mm. Now is this like a ERP kind of solution or it depends, so they use normal QuickBooks and things like that, or? Yeah, so I think in, in the business world today, there's so much great off the shelf software from accounting to CRMs and, and all these other things. So we, but we can do custom software and so when I get a client, the first thing I do is sit down with them and understand what data is it they're working with. Mm-hmm. And then architect, uh, make sure I, I can architect the data and that enables me to, uh, deliver software that works just the way. Uh, the business works and, you know, it's funny, uh, but one of the things that we start off with, it seems so low tech, it's just a glossary. I can't tell you how many times I've come into a business, especially, you know, business has got a few people. Yeah, yeah. And different people in the business will use different words to talk about the exact same thing. Right. And so by starting off with the glossary, uh, and using that to build the database around the vocabulary and the language that the people already use, uh, when you get to the point where they see the software, they don't have any questions because it works the way they would expect it to work. Yeah. It is already used in the vocabulary. Interesting. Are these physical businesses a lot of times, like, um, you know, building things or selling widgets or services, or is it online clients more? Oh, it, uh, typically, yeah. Larger companies or generally service companies are, we, we find there's a lot more variability with service companies than with like manufacturing. Sure. So we, we tend to. We, we find a lot of our clients are, are in, you know, providing a service. Um, so like for, like, for example, one of our biggest clients is providing automotive service. They deliver, uh, automotive service to fleets. Okay. And they, they dispatch their trucks to the fleet parking lot at night when the fleet's not in use. Okay. So that the drivers can just focus on what they're doing when they, when they show up in the morning. Okay. And, uh, the software we wrote tracks all the vehicles, all the maintenance schedules. Okay. Um, uh, all the invoices that are being generated, we push those invoices into QuickBooks. Sure. Um, we tie into, uh, some off the shelf timecard software. Mm-hmm. And, um, because our system knows the, the, uh, cost of the parts that are going in the vehicle, we know the labor rates. Oh wow. And, uh, we can generate reports immediately after the shift to show exactly what the margin was on that shift. Oh, wow. And, and that's really where you get the big ROI. With these systems is the dashboard, right? Is having those real time performance metrics available to the managers Yep. So that they can react in real time to what's happening in their business. Hmm. Yeah. And if, if Joe's killing it out there, you can have Ask Joe, well how, how he's killing it so good. Right, exactly. And try to find more Joes or help Joe be a trainer or whatever. Interesting. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like there just isn't like a necessarily a process, you know, like it's a manufacturing company, then there's, you know, the raw materials comes in. We do this stuff to it, we sell it, but it's, it's a little more probably. Industry niche. And so there's softwares that are made for the manufacturing industry Exactly. That really fit. And we were talking about ai. I mean, I think, I think, uh, really AI is gonna have such a huge impact on the software industry. Sure. And what it's doing is it's driving the cost of developing software down. Mm-hmm. Because now coders are going to, uh, be seeing 10 and 20 times x productivity as they learn to implement these AI tools in mm-hmm. In their processes. And I'm really excited being a custom software developer because, well, I gotta tell you, for, for years, Kurt, I've always felt like I've been playing second fiddle to the SaaS companies because they're, you know, larger and it's a higher risk, higher reward. They just monthly subscription deal going right. And stuff. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and, and, but now I think with custom software. Is gonna be in the ascendancy because the reason people go to SaaS is because the cost is lower. Yeah. Not because it's better.'cause they're selling so many copies. They're selling so many copies. Right. And it takes, it costs them pennies to, to start up a new client on the software that already exists. Yeah. But when you can rapidly develop custom software at a lower price point, right. You get a much better fit. Oh, I bet. In the app world and stuff too, like it used to be, if you wanted somebody to build you an app for your business, whatever that is, it would be a couple hundred thousand dollars. Exactly. Or maybe a million. Just depends how things go. Right. How many things you wanted to do. But now that could be. 30 grand or something like that. Exactly. Right. For exactly right. Huh. And that, that's what I'm really excited towards is, is I'm really pushing my company towards, uh, uh, the concept of mass customization, which I first heard from Bill Gates back in like 95 mm. His book The Road Ahead. He talked about how, um, the ability to, he was using the example, I think in, in, in terms of jeans or something like that, right? Where you could like, take the measurement, send it off to a factory, right? And if they're automated enough, you could get, uh, you know, a pair of jeans doesn't cost any more than any other pair of jeans, but they're made just for you in terms of the color. And, and maybe, you know, other aspects makes my butt look what I bend over. So, um, but now I think we have the opportunity to really, uh, complete mass customization, uh, with custom software. Hmm. Because the, because the cost of the software is going down, we can really, uh, basically set up a factory that is gonna enable us to rapidly deliver custom software. So how do you, you have a mostly overseas team, is that Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. All my employees are, and I'm the bot India. Okay. Oh, all in one place. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so these are long-term employees, most of'em and stuff. Are they, how do you equip them to use these AI tools to, you know, it, it's a, it's a challenge to deliver value. Yeah. It's a challenge. The, uh, the culture over there is not as innovative as, as the us. Okay. And, and, um, in a way I think that really helps me because I'm an American manager managing these Indian employees. So, um, I feel like we get the best of both worlds. But, um, but, but basically we're, uh. Buying training materials. Right. And a matter of fact, just yesterday, boot, you have time, right? Just yesterday I told my employees the last two hours of the day, I want you guys just focusing a hundred percent on ai. Don't do any, don't do any work for our customers for the last two hours. Wow. Um, because we, we have got to complete this transition to AI coding, and there's, we have no choice. We have no choice. Can you trust it? The, um, no. Like, because sometimes GR and Chad, GPT just lie to you, you know, they're like, oh yeah, bill Clinton was president in 2017 or whatever. You're like, no, sure. That wasn't true. Um, no. You can't trust it. Um, yeah. But what you can do do is, but you can debug it. You can, you can learn it. Well, the, the, the, uh, what, what you're talking about is, is a little different. The, when we talk about writing software, there's just a lot less variability. And, and it's, it's something to see how good Chachi PT is with the English language and how much variability is in an English language. But when you look at computer code, there's just a lot less variability. Sure. And that enables, like when the language models kick out computer code, it always compiles it. There's never any syntax errors. Hmm. Right. So, um, so, so that's, that's nice right off the bat. Right. Right. But that could give you a false sense of security. Um, but I really think that the new unit of knowledge that's really important is the prompt, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How do you prompt the AI to, to consistently get you the results that you want? Yep. And you know, we have, uh, there's a number of different stages that software goes through as we go from the architecture to the finished product. Yeah. And the key thing that we need to do is figure out precisely how to prompt it at each step. So that we get, uh, consistent results and when we find a prompt that works, we're gonna keep it right. And then the question is, can we use an ai, like, so using AI to come up with the prompt, right? Right, right, right. Um, and, uh, so, uh, so, so anyway, that's, that, that's where we're, that's where the industry is headed. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a bunch of software companies out there. All the big companies are looking to, to completely automate this. Right. Um, and, and that is just hugely threatening to my company. And so that's why I feel like we have, you know, we either surf this wave or get crushed by investing 20% of your guys' time in it. Exactly. Huh. Yeah. That's an amazing, but, but maybe the, the agility of. And the innovation of a smaller company can rule win out. I don't know. Well, I, I, I'm counting on it. Yeah. What choice, I dunno what else to do. I mean, we can live not nearly as exciting on my wife's military retirement, but, uh, um, yeah, there's, um, yeah, we, we, we, we gotta push forward on this. Yeah, I like it. Um, let's talk about your, uh, experience in Fort Collins so far. You said you have been a bike rider pretty consistently? Uh, yeah. Yeah. You know, um, yeah. I, I've gotten out here on this blue sky trail, so I do mountain biking and the road biking. Okay. And, um, I love these, uh, I love these trails. You know, I love riding on the bike trails. I'm a little scared to get on the road. Right. Just'cause I, you know, yeah. Most of us have been damn near hit a few times. Yeah. But, uh, the bike trails are phenomenal and I'm just so. Proud to live in a city that spends money on the bridges and the tunnels. So the, the, the, the bike trails don't intersect with the, with the big roadways. Yep. Yep. Uh, it's phenomenal. And then with the mountain biking, I mean, we got Lori State Park. I mean, I, I'm, I'm just getting into that in terms of really exploring these, these bike trails and stuff. But it's phenomenal. We'll have to have another walk and talk because I, uh, I was a lot more into mountain biking a few years ago, but, uh, it's a, it's, there's a lot of great trails around. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been up to, what are the trails? Up to putter that are off leash? Do you guys have a dog? Uh, no. Um, and no, I have not been up on those trails. Um, anyway, I forget the, the, anyway, there's two trails that are legally off leash dog Okay. Trails. Okay. Uh, that are also really excellent mountain biking trails. Okay. Uh, and so if you've got like a dog that's got wheels, it's a great way to run your dog, uh, legally. Okay. Alright. Sounds good. Sounds good. Well, you, you've had almost three years in Colorado Now. You don't have a dog yet. Uh, we had one, but, uh, sorry. It drove my, my wife a little nuts. She was, she was a, um, a golden retriever and she was the sweetest golden retriever you'd ever want to have. But just the hair was just, you need a golden, you need a doodle. That's what you need is a doodle, a non shedding golden retriever. Yeah, that's it. That would be a better bet. But yeah, the dog was driving my wife nuts and my wife was driving me nuts, so I'm like, the dog's gotta, yeah. So how did you get into custom software? Like, what was your journey? Um, did you work in industry for a while and then started your own thing or what's that look like? Yeah, so when I was, uh, when I was going to college, I, I read, um, uh. The road Less traveled by Scott Peck. And it had such a powerful impact on me. And I thought I wanted to be a, a psychiatrist, well, a psychologist. Um, and so I, I started down the road to become, um, a psychotherapist and, and psychologist. Okay. Yeah. And, uh, and then when I was in grad school, I got a chance to work in a group home with people with serious mental illness, including like major depression, bipolar disorder, yeah, yeah. Schizophrenia. Yeah. Yeah. And then I just decided that I did not wanna be a psychologist, but I had already, uh, kind of signed up with the military and they'd had, based on my desire to be a psychologist, they'd already put me in this Medical Service Corps and I, which I had no, you know. And so they said, well, now you're a healthcare administrator'cause you're not getting your PhD, you're gonna be a healthcare administrator. I'm like, what is, what is that? Right. I had no idea. Which is basically like a, a, a manager. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. Just in organizer, the whole healthcare, keeping track of data Right. Was a big part of it. Right. Okay. So, um, so in 98, um, I was stationed at Triple Army Medical Center in uh. In, in Hawaii. Okay. And, uh, there I was, we had 1100 nurses in the hospital and I was in the nursing department, and I needed a, they needed a database to track all these nurses and, and who, who reports to who, when does their, uh, you know, basic life support certification expire. Right, right, right. And, uh, where are they working? How many, you know, how, how many people, how many patients are on that ward? How many nurses? What are the ratios? It was just, uh, so that, so that's where I cut my teeth. And, and, but it was really fortunate because there was a reorganization in the hospital. Mm. And about 60% of my workload just disappeared off my desk. Okay. And, and there was only one other guy who knew it in the hospital that my workload had, had, had plummeted, but he wasn't my boss. So, so I, you know, it was like a Tuesday afternoon and I'm like, I, you know, my email box is clear and I got like nothing to do and I, you know, I had this book on Microsoft Access. Okay. And I'm like, I'm just gonna plow through this book. Yeah. And I had the time Oh,'cause you were, you were doing this data handling, but old school style. Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, the, the key thing? Yeah. So we, we, we were using Microsoft Access. Yeah. I mean, that was a tool that I had readily available. Now, the IT department for the hospital, of course they wouldn't touch access, right? Because it's a desktop application and people kind of, it, people could look down on it, right? But the cool thing about Access it is it does allow for rapid application development. You can, you can build applications very quickly with it. Okay. And, um, but. But that's where I, I basically trained myself. I mean, I, I did have a few week long courses. I, I, I, I took, uh, well, I took a, uh, one college class in Excel and Okay. And access, and when we got to the access part, as soon as we got into it, I, I was like, I, I just knew that this stuff was for me. I, it just, it just clicked with me. Yeah. And the teacher, I'm like, he's going so slow. I just went through the course and, you know, I was like, teaching the other guys, right. This stuff should work. So that, that was my first introduction to, to databases and then we, you know, and you're like a 23-year-old guy or something. I was a little older than that. Yeah. Yeah. Probably my late twenties. Okay. Yeah. Um, almost 30. And, uh, and, and so I just, I just developed this expertise and access. Sure. And, um, after three years of that and, and you know, going through the books, teaching myself how to code when I got out of the Army, I'm like, I'm just gonna be a freelance database consultant. Huh. And, uh, so that was fun. And then, uh, I had a buddy of mine. Was it a decision to leave the Army, or, um, oh yeah, definitely. It was always a short term. Yeah. No, it was, I'd never intended to retire from it. Yeah. It was always, uh, well, I enlisted back in, in 90, uh, back in 1990, like a few weeks before Saddam invaded Kuwait. Okay. And that's a, that's a fun story, but, um, but yeah. Um, you wanna go there? Oh, sure, sure. Why not? Why not set the stage? Oh, so, um, so, you know, when I, when I was, uh, when I was going through high school, I thought I would go into the Army.'cause I had three older brothers all went right into the army as soon as they graduated high school. Okay. I, I'm like, I thought that's, it was just an assumption everybody does that. Yeah. And so I, I was gonna join the Army and my dad said, no. Uh, I want you to go to college and you're smarter than your brothers guess. Well, they'll probably listen to this and they'll be like, yeah, he kind of is. Well, the, uh, so, so I went to college, but I didn't have the discipline. Oh, I, I was really undisciplined. And so I ended up dropping a class and flunking out of class. And your dad's like the army? No, that, so anyway, so that didn't work out. Then I got a job at a restaurant. Right. Okay. And so I was like, partying, having a good time, you know, I was like 19, 20 years old. Sure. And so I did that for a while. And then, um, and then I, I, I was working in this restaurant and I, I was bartending and, and waiting tables. And then the manager comes up to me and she says. She says, you know, I think, I think you could be a manager, a restaurant manager. And it just scared, it, scared the crap outta me because I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm not going. That means be this is a temporary thing, right? So, uh, a week later I decided to join the Army, and then it was like, boom, I was, I was outta there and this is right before. Like the sad saying exactly the first one, right? July, 1990. Yeah. When I, when I joined. So after, so when you join, so when I was in basic training, I mean, you have no access to media, you had no access to newspapers or anything. Right. And so the drill sergeant's coming in and like, oh yeah, Saddam just invaded Kuwait and you know, there's chemical weapons there and so you need to take this chemical weapon training very seriously. Oh gosh.'cause you get one little drop of this stuff on your skin and it's gonna kill you. And you might be heading off there as soon as you finish here. Exactly. And some of my, some of my classmates, some of the people I went through basic did go right off to Yeah. Uh, go right off to war afterwards. Um, so yeah, that was a, that was a real wake up call. So, um, what I tell young people is that, hey, if you wanna think about joining the military, just make sure you're willing to go to war.'cause that had, that thought had never come into my mind. Like, this was for college, right? Yeah. Vietnam was the last real thing that our military had been involved with. Exactly. Exactly. Interesting. So, um. Yeah. So, so yeah. Don't join the military unless you're ready to read it. Ready to go warm. Yeah. Did you see live action? No, I didn't. No. Thank goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, I was ready to, I, I, I remember, have a very distinct memory sitting under a tree and be like, you know, they, I could, they could, they could send me over there and I could die over there. And I'm like, and um, I made the decision and I said, that's what happens. That's what happened. But, um, fortunately I got sent to California instead of Kuwait. Right. Which I was like really, really, really glad for. Yeah. So then you take this kind of found skill with access. Yeah. And, and, and then like. Well just become kind of a freelance software consultant at that point. Almost. Exactly. Exactly. And this was back before Google and Yahoo was the search engine. Then Yahoo. And my buddy, he had studied their, their, their algorithm and he told me exactly how to submit my, um, business to Yahoo. And when I followed his advice, when you put in like Microsoft Access help into Yahoo, my website was the only website that showed. Oh my gosh. So my, you know, it was just like, wow. It was, it was, it's like you're dominating Google search. Exactly, exactly. Crazy with that, with that one submission. So that was really fortunate.'cause it, it, it, you know, I got a lot of clients got, got a chance to kind of learn, learn business. Did you hire people right away? Not, not right? No. It took a, it took a year, like a year or two later. That same fella, uh, his name's good buddy of mine. He just moved to Fort Collins in September. Oh, fun. Um. But, uh, he, he had a contact in Omni Bond India who was doing the employee leasing. Okay. And, and he's like, you gotta check this out. It's only$200 a month per person full time. And I was like, I'll take two. Right? You know? And that was, that was, uh, that was back in 2002 or 2003, I'm not sure which, but right around there. But it was before you could talk to people. It definitely before video, right? Oh, over the internet. Right? So the, the only real time communication you had was instant message chat. So we would use like Yahoo Messenger and we would like type back and forth and these guys were not expert typists, right? I could type like 60 words a minute or whatever. I'd type my sentence and I'd be like waiting for them to type back. And, um, but. It was really valuable, uh, really valuable to be able to learn how to work with people in India without paying a, a, a, a big salary, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they would be like, Hey, this is, we're, we're behind schedule. I'd just keep going. Like, this is gonna take twice as long we thought, I'm just keep going. Right. Just don't stop. Right. And, um. But really the, the, the key thing I learned over a process of years was how to communicate software to requirements to them. Yeah. In a way where they don't have any questions, right? Yeah. They know exactly what to do when they follow the instructions, they deliver software. That's exactly what my customer needs. Yeah. Well, and exploring what your customer exactly needs then becomes the crux of the climb. Right? Like if you can learn really well what your customer really needs and explain it really well. Well, the, the, I would say it's almost easier to know. Well, it's easier to know what they tell you they want. That's, that's one thing, right? Because what they, what they actually need might be different. Oh yeah. That's a big part of the job is identifying that these conflicting requirements, they tell you they want this and they want that, and you're like, they don't, they don't match. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, uh, but that's a separate issue. But, but once you figure out what you want the software to do, being able to communicate that to the programmers. Is is is really valuable. Yeah. And that's, uh, I think that that's probably one of my core skill sets is being able to communicate software requirements in an unambiguous way. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. And then. Kind of just continued the, the journey from there without too much change was, was Access a cornerstone for a long time? Um, it sounds like it no longer is No, no. I don't touch it these days, but years since I've touched it. Um, no. So yeah, so we transitioned away from, from access to SQL Server and, and because SQL Servers also a Microsoft product and um, and then we transitioned away from desktop applications'cause they're a pain to support Right. Especially if you're working remotely. Okay. Right.'cause people are like, I'm having this issue on my computer and I'm like, oh my, I'm like, this is crazy. We go to web, then all I have to do is make sure that it's working on the web server. If they can't pull up a, if they can't pull up CNN, then it's not my problem. Right, right. So it was very clear delineation. So yeah. So we, we, we, we transitioned from Yeah. Um, my guys basically never did access. Oh, okay. We pretty much, yeah, we, we transitioned to Secret Server. Server very quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would, I, I could do that. I was so fast. It would just, it was crazy. I'd get these applications, I could knock it out in like six hours and the whole application would be done. Um,'cause access, access, when you, when you become an expert in it, you can develop applications like incredibly fast. Hmm. Yeah. Like when you say develop an application, that's like a, a, a case model, like pulling the data out of these. Places and, and giving that kind of dashboard effect kind of thing that you're looking for or what? Um, or the searchable It's searchable more. Oh yeah. Well, so, so Access is a, you know, a relational database tool, right? Yeah. So, so you can, uh, you, you can structure the data the way you want, right? You can say, look, we want to track people, we want to track, uh, you know, these vehicles. Well, those, those nurses is what I was thinking about. 1100 nurses. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, so yeah, the, the, uh, and that's where the software architecture comes in, right? Mm-hmm. Is understanding how do you set up the tables, right? What, what's the nature of the data that is, that's the software architect. That, that, I mean, is, is really my, my core skill and probably the, the thing that I'm, I'm, I'm best at, I'm thinking about like the, the Colorado Secretary of State Business Search database and stuff, right? Oh yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. It's got all these different data points and it's searchable by different keywords and, you know, different cities and regions and all that. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's structured data right there. And relational databases run the world. Hmm. I mean, everybody loves to talk about, you know, the new cool stuff. And if you were to go talk to a bunch of computer science, uh, college students, relational databases would not be on the top of their list. Right. Sexy things to learn new stuff. But they, but they run the world. Hmm. They really run the world. I mean, every time you go to check out at the grocery store, it, it's, that's all relational database stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, the SKU number, the price, the, you're gonna generate the ticket and calculating the sales tax, all that stuff. Oh yeah. And we just expect it all to just kind of work. And it does, I mean, it's, it's reliable technology. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Um, so like from your perspective. Things are changing rapidly. AI is bringing down development costs and making customization of software a more approachable thing for more companies. It's, it's going to reduce the cost of developing software across the industry for every software company out there. Yeah. For SaaS companies or for custom. Yeah. It's, it's any, yeah. The, the, uh, the, except for the people who, for the poor people out there that don't know that they need to learn this stuff yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, no, it, it's, to me, I think this ai, uh, revolution is equivalent to the industrial revolution in terms of the impact it's gonna have on society. I, I personally feel that AI is a more important invention, if you will. Even if it requires the internet, it's more important than the internet. Hmm. To me, it's, um, it, it's an absolute game changer. It's gonna change our society in ways that we cannot foresee right now. So. Yeah, one of the, I was just thinking about like West Virginia coal miners being laid off and people saying, well, I guess they should learn how to code. Um, and, uh, but, and'cause that was a really safe career choice for a long time to be a software coder. Yeah. Right. And you can make, you know, 80, a hundred,$200,000 a year being a coder or whatever. And now that's probably unsafe, you know, it's, or only, but only for, probably for fewer, there'll be one, one fifth as many coders, but they'll be using AI tools. Uh, much. Yeah. It's really hard. It's really hard to predict. Right. It's really hard to predict. But the key thing is, is that the cost is gonna go down. Right. And so as software gets cheaper. There's gonna be more of it, right? Supply and demand. I would think so, yeah. Right. So there'll be, you know, the software's just gonna get embedded into more and more areas of our life, I think. Huh? But where else can you put it? Like this microphone stand, doesn't need software. Well, like my, my buddy man, when he goes to the gym now, he, he takes chat g PT with them. He's like, Hey, I just did, you know, three reps at 50 pounds. Mm-hmm. Uh, what, what, what should I do next? Right. Mm-hmm. And, which I don't think is a, is a great use of ai, but Right. Um, but it will be, and, and as Theis gets smarter Right. You know, they're, they're gonna have more and more context to, to answer those questions. One of my friends was just telling me how he uses it for cooking. Yeah. Recipes. Hey, Chad, GBT I've got. Broccoli, asparagus, you know, carrots, chicken thighs and mozzarella cheese. Can you pull me up a quick recipe? And that, that's, it's a great idea. And, and personally, I would tell anybody that to use it as much as you can because using AI as a skill. Hmm. It's, it, don't think of it as, as just, uh, something that it, it's not magic. Right? Yeah. Yeah. When you, when you understand what, uh, how it's built, what an, some questions it can answer really, really well. Yeah. Yeah. Other questions? It can't, and the more you use ai, the more you'll understand where it can, what, what questions it can answer. Really ask value. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and will that change over time? I think probably too. Well, as the AI gets better. Yeah. Um, but. Well, for, for where we are right now, I think I, I, I, you know, people, I mean, you take bookkeepers, right? Uh, you could look at bookkeepers, you could look at, uh, legal assistance, right? Um, AI is gonna impact all you look at. I mean, the poor people who work in call centers, they're like, they're on the chopping block, right? For sure. Yeah. And so when you, when you put a call center out of business Yeah. AI knows all the instructions for that device. Exactly, exactly. I mean, it can do the voice, it, it has, it's gonna have libraries of how to answer all these questions. These call centers are going away now. I don't know what those people are gonna do. Yeah. Um, that, that's, that's my concern is, is I really see AI as having a big impact in terms of impacting the labor needs. The, the, the, the labor force. And, and yeah. And it, the, the advancements are coming so rapidly. They're coming so rapidly that, um, we don't have much time to react. Like take that person to the call center, like, you know. Um, maybe they still have a job today. They need to go back to school right now. Yeah. And figure out where they're gonna retool. My buddy of mine's a massage therapist. I told him You're in good shape, right? Yeah. Um, you know, the nurses have more job security than the, than the physicians. Now. The physicians, when you look at what, what parts of their jobs are gonna be automated, it's gonna be reading the akg, EKGs, um, uh, and, and, and other, you know, reading x-rays and things like that. Those, those are applications where AI can really excel. Yeah. Whereas the nurse, you know, doing that injection, you know, she has much more job security. So I think it's important for everybody to think about, uh, how, what, what role AI is gonna play in their field. Right. And if you're a bookkeeper, for instance, I love, I love this example bookkeeper. Yeah. Please. Um. I mean, a, a lot of, you know what, what if, if bookkeepers are looking at transactions and learning how, you know, they understand how to put that transaction into accounting system. Yeah. That's informa. You know, that type of knowledge can, is, is readily, uh, doable by ai. Right. Um, and so my message to bookkeepers is learn how to use ai. Right. That's how you prevent AI from crushing you. Yeah. Is learning how to use it and being the guy who, who goes to your boss and says, Hey, I can, I can do more bookkeeping because now I understand how to use AI to do it. I don't wanna raise. Yeah, exactly. Right, because your productivity is going up. Yeah. Yeah. If you use it effectively, but then, I don't know, it's a, it seems like a potential trap for humanity of. And I guess not because, we'll, probably just like the writing of those prompts, right? Getting more creative of writing really good prompts means that humanities should continue to expand itself. I just worry that if we don't have to think anymore for ourselves, we just will stop thinking. Well, um, yeah. So let me, let me, let me tell you this story, right? So, uh, we had this road work on harmony, right? Yeah. Just a, just a, a week or two ago. Um. Google Maps. Alright. I'm taking my son to his, his lesson. My wife's in the car. Yeah. The Google Maps telling me to take harmony. Right. I'm like, I'm not taking harmony. You can't trick me. Dumbass. Right? So I get on Trivi, sure enough, man, I hit a roadblock and we get up, end up getting there even later. And my wife is like, you shut, have listen to Google Maps, right? When you, when we have systems that are smarter than we are, we're gonna, you have no choice really. But to listen. I mean, if you don't listen, you're making a poor choice. Yeah. And so you basically lose your agency just by having access to a system that is smarter than you are. And as that continues, um, the, when, when we're, when we're. Not the ones that we're not, when we're not the smartest people in the room. Right. You lose your power. Right. Right, right, right. And, uh, you fast forward 10 years and people are gonna be asking ai who to vote for? Well, who controls the ai? Right. You know, that's what policy decisions should we make if we don't think. Yeah. And so, um, so I'm really concerned that, that we lose our agency. Um, so you're, you're, you're a little scared too. Oh, and it's, well, you know, with a Chinese curse, may you live in interesting times. Right? Right. We live in very interesting times and, uh, no, I, I mean, I'm grateful for, for every day. And, and, and to, to be able to see this unfold before me, I is, is just a, it, it's such a, uh, I don't know, I don't know the right word, um, right. Calamity. It would probably not be the right one, but it, it is very, very interesting times that we live in. And, uh, now, uh, one would think that we could thrive as a, as a species because of this. Huge amount of applied leverage. Right. Like even the internet one would think. And it has, I would say that humanity is thriving a lot better than it was before the internet came along some, right. I don't know. Ish. Well, I, I've thought there's less people starving on a gross basis. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no doubt a percentage wise.'cause we've got a little more people now too. For sure. For sure. No, I mean, uh, to, to me, you know, an analogy that, that I, I think, I think the homo sapiens, I mean, we're, we're approaching the end of our species actually. You do. I do. Yeah. And, and the analogy analogy, like, we're here to create this AI thing almost. Well it's, it's, it's gonna be smarter than us. Right. If it's not already right. Yeah. It's not, it's not as smarter than us right now, but it will be. And because the list of things that computers do better than people is only getting bigger. Right. Right, right. Um, and, and, and to me, I see an analogy. I, I was fascinated to learn this theory that, uh, homoerectus uh, a precursor species to humanity. Okay. Yeah. Um, domesticated fire. And when they, once they domesticated fire, that, when, when they learned how to cook, they were able to get more calories from their food. Yeah. Yeah. And that, uh, prompted a larger brain. Right. That basically turned'em into homo sapiens. It turned'em into homo sapiens. Yeah. And that was the end of Homoerectus. And they, they lived on this planet for 2 million years. Interesting. Um, yeah. So, um, so I, I, you know, I'm, I'm con I I, I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen again. Yeah. Yeah. And what that new species is like, is probably what it takes a village to decipher, I suppose. Yeah. And whether it's biological or, I mean, I, I don't know. Yeah. I, I mean, uh, you get all these, well, the same thing about homo sapiens though is even if, like, I guess that they would just change or die out Right. Or whatever, because like we can just. It's like I got YouTube videos right now where people just go live in Alaska and they can like hunt moose in the wintertime and smoke some of it and they, you know, they don't really even need all this technology stuff to have a fulfilling life. Sure. No. Right. Or, you know, living in a beach house on the shore at, in Costa Rica, I catch one fish a day. I'm a pretty happy guy. I'm good. Right, right. No, I love that. I love that. So it's an interesting, and that doesn't power the stock market. Right, right. Or, or, or buy jet liners. Yeah. Or put on, you know, Taytay concerts. Yeah. I don't know. It is an interesting thing, like, I suppose you do move into something else. Um, but it'll be a few, few generations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, definitely. Uh, quite a few unless, probably, unless, unless AI just killed us all. Thanks. Thanks for making me. Bye. Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. Um, I'm feeling like, uh, we could take a short potty break Okay. And then come into the later segments. And we're back. Um, so what I was thinking about just now was that, you know, if you look at like, the history of buildings and people and stuff, like in China, tell who the bosses of the. Seasons were based on who had the biggest buildings and stuff like Google, right. SpaceX has got a pretty big place these days and stuff, right? Sure. And, uh, and in the past it's been churches, you know, when they built those huge cathedrals and stuff like that, but that was like 8% of a nation's resources for Right. A hundred years. Right. And so there was, those were the bosses of the world, the hospitals that we've been building, the university buildings we've been building lately. Although it seems like it's gonna take some trickery to be the bosses of the world for the universities for the next a hundred years. I don't know, like with that super smart ai, like what do universities really do? It's, it, it's, uh, well, I tell you on that, on that point, I, I, I love, uh, learning from from GPT. I don't know. Have you ever had a conversation with it? Like, yeah, I use Rockmore personally, but, okay. Okay. Yeah. Um, but it's super fun. It it is. Exploring even deep topics and whatever else. Exactly, exactly. So I love going out for a walk and just having a, and, and asking it, you know, what I need to be doing, how this technology works, what I need to be studying, what these different words mean. Interesting. And, and, and just diving in, um, yeah, I mean, it is just such a wealth of knowledge. I mean, it feels like everything that's ever been learned is in these tools, right? Yeah. And you ask the questions, it, it, it, it if, again, so are those the next bosses of the world is like the AI companies, whether it be open AI or whatever, it, it, because that battle's not settled yet either, right? Like, who's the boss of the bosses? Right. Right. No, it, it, it, that's a good question. I don't know the answer. I don't know the answer, but, so do you use chat a lot? Is that your primary go-to? I do. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Um, it seems like what my team favors the most as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I appreciate it and I appreciate the different models that they have. Um, yeah, the different tunings kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to be honest with you, I still feel like a beginner and, and, and I imagine everybody listening to us feels like a beginner. I mean,'cause this stuff is just changing so fast, right? I mean Right. Uh, there's, there's new models coming out all the time, new co I mean, the, the applications are increasing. Yeah. Um, everything is just changing so quickly. Right. Well, and it's all free. Uh, they're not free 20 bucks a month or something for Chad GD Pro free for a hundred bucks a month or something. Right. Like, it's compared to Comcast trying to charge you a hundred bucks, 150 bucks a month for their selection of TV shows that you gotta just sit there and slog through, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, and, and in terms of the value, I mean, I don't, for me, I can't afford not to spend that money. Sure, sure. Um, makes sense. Um, what would you do if you were a kid these days? Like if you were that. An 18-year-old kid that your dad was telling to go to college in those days? Like what? Like, well, my, my, I've got, my, my older son is 17 years old. Okay. Yeah. And, and I've been telling him, uh, I, I've mentioned him a few times that look, you know, uh, he really needs to study this ai, but he's not, I maybe he, maybe he feels a little overwhelmed. Yeah. Um, but, uh, but he's not, he's not jumping on the bandwagon. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to do his own thing, so I gotta, I gotta give him that space and let him do his own thing. The royalty comic book authors too. Well, and my other son is playing bassoon, you know, and, and saxophone. I'm like, oh, that, that, you know, great. Go for it. Yeah. They can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, and people, people wanna have that human connection, right? Yeah. You see somebody playing the music up on stage. I mean, that's, yeah. That's different than just having to come over your headphones. Totally, totally. Yeah. It could be the most amazing music ever over your headphones, but. If you've actually been to a concert Yeah. By that musician, it sounds all the better. Exactly. Yeah. It really does. Yeah. Let's talk about your family a little bit. Sure. Um, where did you find your wife along the way? Yeah, so, uh, it was after I got outta the military in 2001. Uh, it was a few months later, um, that, that I met her and, and she was at Tripler at the same hospital that, that I had exited, exited from, but I was still living on Oahu. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, so we met online and, uh, and yeah, she's, uh, she was just so beautiful and a physician and, and, uh, you know, we started from that. We fair. Um, and, uh, yeah, we just hit it off. She's, she's, uh, Punjabi. Oh. And, uh, so she was, she was, uh, uh Oh, so's part of the Indian Connect too. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. My, it was so funny'cause, uh, one of the, one of the thought leaders I follow, he's, he's, uh. He believes in reincarnation. He's like, you were an Indian in a prior life. Right. Of all these you don't have a residence. Exactly. Exactly. That's cool. Yeah. So we were actually, um, married in, uh, in Chunga, in, in India, in, uh, Northern India. Oh wow. And then we did our, our honeymoon up in Shimmin, the Himalayas. Okay. And, uh, so that was, that was good. Pretty neat that back in 2004 we got married. Um, yeah. What a different experience as far as, uh, being able to be there, you know? Oh, yeah. Like, and, and be connected to there. Yeah. As well. Kind of. Now I've always been fascinated by India. Um, they're both their, what do I say? You know,'cause they had I guess the blessing of British colonization. Yeah. Even though it was probably felt kind of yucky for a long time or whatever. Right. But nowadays, like it, without that, they would be a much different place. Yeah. I probably wouldn't have employees there. Right, right, right. Because they wouldn't know English. Right, right. Which I've never learned, and they wouldn't have entered the modern world nearly so fully as a, as a nation kind of. Yeah. Yeah.'cause they modern modernized probably even faster than China in some ways. Yeah, yeah. Although not really because they, they had that foundation of industry and of kind of organization that the British brought there. Uh, it's such a, it's such a blessing and a curse. Kind of a, a element of, of history. Yeah, for sure. So, um, then you have two kids. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, so yeah, the, uh, Benjamin and Julius, so the older one is 17, Ben and Julius is, uh, 14. They're going into, uh, ninth grade and their senior year at Fossil Ridge. So you guys had a few years of being married before the kids came along and you were traveling elsewhere, places from Hawaii too? Yeah, well, we, we had decided to have kids and um, and then my buddy, uh. His wife had just delivered and he said, you gotta come over to the hospital. So I went over to the hospital. He let me hold his, you know, brand new infant child. Okay. And when I got home, I'm like, honey, you gotta get back on the pill. No way. I have not ready, I'm not ready for this. It was really, it was a huge reality, reality check there. And that was a really good decision because after we left Hawaii, we went to Germany and we lived in Germany for two years. Okay. And. If we had had a child there, it just would've been really difficult because we had no family in there. Um, but without the kids, it was great. I bought the BMW on the Audubon. Yeah, exactly, man. Going out to nice dinners. You're married to a doctor, right? Oh, we, we drove, we drove all over, all over Western Europe to, you know, from Amsterdam when you traveled London, Paris Oh, cool. And Italy and, and Austria. And, uh, and, and it's tough to do that when you have a child in tow. Yeah. So, so that was a good two years right there. Nice. And then when did you actually start your family? Um, yeah, so she, she got pregnant in, in Europe and then we moved to Maryland where Ben was born. Oh, okay. And, uh, yeah, he was born at Bethesda, uh, Naval, uh, medical center where the president is treated. Sure, yep. Yep. And uh, and then we moved to San Antonio, and that's where Julius was born. Okay. So we lived in San Antonio for five years. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, what an international and multiregional. Family. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you've had splashes in the east coast, kind of right in the heart of where all the things happened, right? Yeah. And then checked out, were you in Oahu the whole time? In Hawaii, I guess? Um, yeah, so, so I, I, I, I first got into Hawaii in 90 98 and I lived there till 2005 when we went to Germany. Yeah. And then, um, and then, and then her career ended up taking her back there in 2015. Okay. Um, and then we thought it would only be for three years, but, uh, it ended up being another seven years. Oh, wow. So that's, uh, that's kind of where all the stuff is happening in Hawaii though. Did you guys sneak off to the quiet islands? Not a whole bunch. Not with, with the kids. It's just, uh, you know, it's a little different. I mean, it's, it's probably more like a regular life like. Americans think about you got skid and cool and school and baseball games and Yeah. You know, there's still beaches and snorkeling or whatever if you want to, but it's a different Hawaii than most of us think about. Well, Hawaii is, there's a dynamic there that, um, and I don't fault anybody for this, but the locals, you know, so much of the population of Oahu in particular, and that's where I spent all my time. So much of the population there, maybe 20% is, is affiliated with the military. Right. And these are people who come for two or three years and then they leave. Right. Totally transitory. Exactly. And so the locals, I think outta self-preservation kind of wall them off. Yeah. You know, it'd be like, you know, you do your thing, we'll do our thing. Right. And, um, yeah. So, so that's the dynamic there. Um, the, the, I think the thing I found most difficult about living there is just the fact that you have to get on a plane to go anywhere. Yeah. Even to the next island. Even to the next island. And there was a ferry service that was running in Hawaii for a while, but that got shut down. Um, the rental car companies, the airlines didn't like the ferry service. Oh, right. So they all ganged up against it. We took a ferry from, uh, Maui to Le Lena. And what year was that? Uh, 2023. Oh really? Yeah, we were there for our 20th anniversary. Oh. Huh. So we just flew in and out of awa. Oh. I had it. But otherwise Okay, okay. Oh, so pretty recent. Okay. But yeah, there was a, it was a nice little short ferry, you know. Okay. But yeah, it was, well in Laa is itself kind of a, some sort of a monopoly. The whole place kind of, I forget who has it, but yeah. Only a few people kind of control that whole island. Yeah, yeah. No, the, the, the politics there, the leadership is not, well, I, I all, lemme just say this is that being here in Fort Collins, I feel like the city's really well run. And I, and I appreciate that. Yeah. And where did you grow up? Grow up? I, I grew up in Maryland. Oh, you did? Yeah. In West, yeah. Uh, town called Westminster, Northwest of Baltimore, Maryland. Okay. Interesting. That's a, uh, for some reason it feels like you got a bit of a southern twang. Maybe that's the time in Texas there or something. No, that's Maryland. Really. It's different. Few people pick it up, but you got a good ear. Um, that's interesting. How is Maryland like? Um, well, yeah, yeah. Growing up there, I mean, I, I had a great childhood. Um. And, uh, you know, I, I don't know, it, it's kind of tough for me to answer that'cause I, I, I pretty much spent my whole childhood there. So, like, in terms of how it compares to other places, I'm not, I'm not sure, you know, in terms of, of growing up. But, um, but, uh, no, I have fond, fond memories of know I had a good childhood. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Tell me about your kids a little bit. What were there. Yeah. Um, yeah, so, so, uh, so Julius, he, he, uh, he, he, he's definitely into the music and, um, okay. And it was a, it was a few years ago when, when I offered to take him to get his hair cut, and he's like, no, thank you. And it's been the same answer ever since. So he is got, he's got long hair. It comes down to his shoulders now. Gotcha, gotcha. And, and me, I've always had a tight military cut. And is he a, like bass guitar or He is drums or just, just bassoon or The bassoon. Bassoon, yes. I'm sorry. And now he's, he's switching over to a saxophone. Okay. So he's, he's gonna be, um, he, he, he's gonna be participating with the Fossil Ridge Marching band and he's putting the time in for that. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. And, and he, he makes his own res on the b with the bassoon. Oh, you have the double res. And, and, and it, it's interesting. Um, but there's not a good supply of those in the marketplace, so. Huh. So he has to like, make his own res and he, he, we got him the tools and stuff, and, and his bassoon instructor actually taught him how to make, um, make the reads. That's fascinating. He might be a craftsman of some sort. Maybe he'll, uh, make violins or bassoons or something someday. Yeah. Well, he also enjoys computer games and, and he was actually interested in learning how to code. So, um, I started getting him into teach him how to, to write some C sharp code. There you go. So, so that's good. And then, um, Benjamin, uh, yeah, he's 17 now. He's, he's smart. And, uh, I got him into chess. So he's got a, he's got a chess instructor now. Oh, okay. And, uh, he plays, plays a pretty good game of chess. Oh. And, uh, it's funny, like I did too, like when I was 10. Oh, okay. And now when I play anybody that plays it all, it's like, it's. Just me crying, you know, quickly. Really? Yeah. Because people like learn all these different approaches and if you do that, like, I don't know, it's, it's cool how kids can play and learn and it isn't just kind of the, the logic of it. Like, it seemed like it was when I was learning. Yeah. Well there's, uh, well, I, I could talk about chess quite a bit. I, I, I, I had, um, an objective to be, become a chess master Oh, really? For, for years. Okay. And, uh, I just actually just gave up the game in September. Oh, really? Yeah. Um, I, I, I gave it up to put more time towards my business. Okay. And. Well, really the, probably the bigger reason is I felt like I was giving it more than it was giving me Mm. Because I was studying for hours every day. Wow. And, uh, well, that are, or that are just playing games and too many of Right. Right, right, right. But, um, but yeah, there's, uh, and I guess you didn't become a master. No, no, no. I, you might come back to it. You never know, but, well, it, it's the, the, the, the knowledge and being able to see the patterns. It's not like riding a bike when you take time away from the game, you get rusty. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. You gotta, you gotta keep that edge sharp, huh. With constant study. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. I wouldn't have thought that, I would've thought that it was like ingrained almost. And those patterns. Yeah. I mean, so it's not like I'm a beginner. Right. Right, right, right, right. But, but if you wanna like, keep that edge, stay at the sharp edge. Yeah. If you, if you gotta, if you wanna keep a sharp edge, you gotta study every day. Interesting. Yeah. You got it. I've enjoyed podcasts with like, grandma, chess players and stuff like that, of them talking about. How they think and stuff, but it doesn't really compute for me. Right?'cause I don't think that way, at least not in chess. Well, it just, it just takes, it just takes hours of practice every day. I mean, to get to the level where these grand Masters are playing, you need to be studying six hours a day at least, you know, to be able to play at that level. And it just, every day for the rest of you, I mean, for as long as you're playing competitively, right? That seems like more of a retirement activity, but probably you're a little slower when you're older too. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. No, it's, it's, uh, easier to play. Well, when you're a little younger, did your kids get good enough to beat you and that's why you quit? Um, no. No. I can, I can still beat'em. Okay. That's good. That's good. On a good day. But, uh, I don't know how much longer that's gonna, I have to, I have to work at it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm not studying. He, he is. Right. So he's getting better and I'm not, so, so, you know what he's gonna do as his next step? He's, he's not graduating. He's gonna One more year left. Yeah. Yeah. He's got one more year left. Yeah. And, um, I don't know. I don't know. He doesn't know what he's gonna do. I don't know what he's gonna do. And. Um, but you know, when I look at the route that I took from dropping outta college, enlisting in the village, bartender, restaurant manager, wannabe. Yeah. And then going to school and then Yeah. Coming back into the army and then figuring out what I want. I like, I was like 29 years old before I figured out I wanted to do databases. Yeah. So, I mean, my wife is, my wife was the complete opposite.'cause she went from high school straight into college, straight into medical school, like didn't miss a beat. Yes. Um, and so we're, we're very much opposites in that way, which is a very traditional pathway for some really smart Indian kids. Yeah. We're a little bit like, I, I hate to be a stereotype, but that's a, you know, a common trajectory. There's a lot of amazing doctors that have Yeah. Gone for the education path, you know. Well, well, yeah. She just, she just has tremendous discipline and, and so I just admire the hell at her for that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, more so than me. Do you wanna play the game? Sure. Pong ball game? Sure. So your job is to, oh, sometimes there's a prize you didn't bring a prize to today, did you? Did not. We'll make the prize be a$25 gift card to Silver Grill. Alright. Uh, that works. Uh, because I think that's, is that, did we meet at Silver Grill? No, we just had copy that now. Yeah. Well, and you can buy me lunch at some too for covering here. Okay. Alright. So pick three balls. Okay. And then one, uh, one of the answers to one of these questions is going to win somebody that, oh, you have to actually keep the numbers. I'll let you hold'em. Okay. Um, gimme your first number, please. All right. First number is three. How do you approach work life balance? Well, it sounds like giving up chess is part of it lately for you. Um, yeah, for me, work life balance is never, um, I I I've probably balanced more towards life than work. Yeah. For the most part. Uh, um. So, um, try to stay sharp and you communicate with your clients and with your team and Yeah. They write the stuff. So, so I, you know, I'm, I'm a believer in, in systems theory, constraint theory. Mm-hmm. And, and any system, there's gonna be one component that has the least throughput in that system. Okay. And my goal is to never be that component. Okay. I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, because when, yeah, so, so, um, I don't avoid responsibility Yeah. But I apply it directly when needed. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, making sure I got enough people in India that can do the work and, and, um, uh, yeah. Keeping myself out that not being the constraint. Yeah. And, and, and being able to delegate and, and, and trust people and I, that, that's been huge. Um, yeah. So I've, I've got the, the team I have in India, I, I, uh, uh, I'm just so blessed to have them. I've, I've got like, right, you've got like a super, super power over there. 11 people over there. Okay. And, um. Uh, eight of them have been with me for more than 10 years. Wow. And most of the rest of are, uh, have been with me for like more than 15 years. Oh, wow. So, uh, so we had to, we just have a deep, long lasting relationship and everybody knows their job. And, uh, a lot of times the emails come to me and they go to India and I'm, I'm just like, my guys got that. And I don't even have to, I just, I, I just un uncheck it and, and move on. Yeah. Yeah. And then they handle it. Have you always been the rainmaker for. Yeah. Your company. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to do all So finding the relationships and the, the demand Yeah. Side. Well, I, I've been really blessed that way'cause I'm not any kind of genius marketer or anything. Right. But when we get a client, uh, we keep'em for a long time. Yeah. Uh, like most of my clients have be with me for more than five years. We have one client that's been with us for 20 years, and we've only been in business for 24. Wow. And, uh, so having long relationships with my clients too has been very important. So. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my, my clients understand us, my, my employees do and Yeah. They understand your clients. Right. They, they know what to do and, and, and so I, I am able to, and they, and then they're working at night. Right. And so, right. It's, it's, so, I'm, I'm asleep When they're working, it's not like, here's a deliverables. Exactly. Oh, those look great. You wake up in the morning and you're like, oh, the donuts have been made already. And Yeah, I just, I'd never thought of it that way. The benefit of that, like, time to make the donuts. Oh, the donuts are made. Yeah, exactly. No, when I come in, I see all the emails and you know, my, my branch manager, he, he, he, all my clients know him by name and he writes'em back and he's like, this has been done. This has been done. Yeah, exactly. Oh, dang. That's really interesting. Yeah. What a fascinating lifestyle business model that you've been Yeah. Entertaining. I, I, I think, um, but I think I kind of went too far in that direction. Mm. And I actually had a fellow in, in, in, uh, San Antonio I worked with for 10 years. Okay. And when I moved here from, from Hawaii, we had three and a half months where our stuff was like stuck at the port in San Francisco, trying, waiting to get it to, to Fort Collins. But I actually took a couple months off of work and, and he was able to run the show. Yeah. And what I found after that experience is that I really enjoy the engagement that I. I really, I enjoy the stimulation, the intellectual stimulation. And now I'm at a point in my life where I'm really pushing the business more. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and so I'd say overall I manage a work-life balance very well. Yeah. Cool. Next number. Alright. 24. What's the most durable business relationship you've had? Oh, yeah. That, that would have to be with, uh, equine Network. Well, it's actually the, the company, it's actually a brand US rider. Okay.'cause, uh, I've had that client since 2004 and, uh, the company's been sold twice and and they're still a client. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Um, and is it a personal relationship or they just know that you're the software guy? When we need stuff for our, so yeah, it's a custom CRM. Okay. And so we, we wrote a CRM that enables the members to join online and renew their membership. Okay. And, um, and they, they have some, you know, they had some rules that they put in, like, yeah, yeah. You know, hey, we, we can have associates, but only one of'em can be a spouse and the other ones can be children, but once they hit 25, yada, yada, yada. Yeah. So you got these rules. So, um, you know, over the years, the, the, the system has just evolved, right. And as it's grown. The opportunities have grown. Sure. And then they innovate and they're like, Hey, we want to this, wanna this, do this, this, and this, this, this. Yeah. And, and, and that's really what's worked for me is having companies that grow as clients. That's cool. Because as they grow, their needs change. They wanna respond to new opportunities, new challenges. Yeah. And we can respond rapidly. Well, and, uh, selfishly, not selfishly, but like there's no off the shelf, nothing that can do all the things that you've built for them now. And, and all their customers, like are familiar with the interface. Right. Right, right. They all know it's security. It's like, it's broke. Don't you know? Why would you go and fix it? Oh, I've got a, a business development strategy for you is, is find companies that are kind of like some of your existing customers that are using crappy Yeah. Websites and technologies now and just offer them more of a. More like Bob has over here. Right, right, right. Well that's kind of like the SaaS model, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. But you want a little customization on each one, otherwise, yeah. Why wouldn't they just buy it? Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Last number. Okay. The last number here is, uh, hold it. This one? Yep. 26. 26. What's your go-to way to unwind after a stressful day? Uh, I loved going out for a walk at night. And when, when, especially when the stars are out. Hmm. I mean, I live down by twin silo and, uh, okay. You know, when the, um, I, the stars are out, I, I love going out for walks at night. Yeah. And I've done it enough to where, uh, let, lemme share this. Is, is, uh. I had a realization one day. Okay. Um, because I would always go out at the same time at night. Okay. And I'm used to seeing the constellation there. And then I noticed that the constellation was in a different place a few months ago. Yeah. And I had that sensation of moving that the earth was moving. Right. And I knew the direction the earth was going through space in the same way that when you are in a car and you watch the tree goes by, you know, the car's going in the opposite direction. Sure. And um, and now I'm at the point where when I look up at the night sky, I can see the planet's in motion. Like I know when I see Mars, I know it's headed. Oh really? Uh, and you know, if you're facing South, it's headed to the left. Yeah. Um, and, and be able to, you know, see the, uh, basically be able to visualize the orbital plane. Yeah. Um, by being able to see kinda some of that data visualization you were talking about earlier in your life. Yeah. Well, it's more of, it's just about having the imagination. Yeah. And when you, when you see the planets and the planets basically always show up in, in pretty much the same Yeah. Yeah. Between the same set of stars. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and it was somebody kind of like you that originally noticed like, oh, Vita just goes along this track here, actually. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and it's actually not a flat earth, the sun out there. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. That's, that's what I really enjoy is, is understanding the way, the way the earth is spinning, the way the, the planets are going across the sky, the, the moon and, and yeah, I just, so that's, that's how IAnd, that's pretty cool. We go camping quite a bit up at Red Feather area. Oh, I love it. Which is great. Star watching up there. Yeah. And we've definitely noticed like. Oh, there's like, what's that? Uh, Orion's belt. Belt. Ryan's belt, yeah. Is always an easy marker for me to find. It's like, sure. Well, it's here. It was just over there like it seemed like a few weeks ago. Like, what's, why is he moving around like that or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I don't know if I'm accurate about that, but even the planet's moving around and, and whatnot, but I haven't What built a working model of it in my head. I've noticed. Yeah. Right. So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a consistency. It's a progress consistency, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I go out for a walk just about every night. Yeah. Cool. Is it like a 9:00 PM kind of thing after those guys? Well, that's, you know, I love winter time. Properly dark, you know, because six seven o o'clock at night, the stars are already out. I don't have to say it because I, I like, I like to wait until it's so cold. Right, right. So, yeah, in the summertime you gotta stay up late at night and I'm trying to like, keep a regular bed schedule, you know, getting sleep at a regular time these days. That's interesting thing. You're like, well, I gotta get my star walk in. Yeah. That's cool. Well, we're gonna have that be the prize. A, a nighttime walk. And I think I would encourage, uh, my wife and I used to do it on a pretty regular basis, you know,'cause that was the time when we finally had enough time to take the dog for a walk. Okay. We're old town Fort Collins, so we don't get very great stars. Yeah. Too often. Yeah. Um, a little more, a little more light, uh, pollution down there. But, um, it is something. Have you ever, have you ever, um, walked around this city during a snowstorm at night? Yeah. It's like it's lit up the whole, there's like so bright there. It is. So bright. It feels like it's daytime, which is, so when, when they came out with the LED lights back in the day, they were like, oh, we can save all this money. But ultimately they just made every city way brighter. Yeah. Uh, in Fort Collins is one of them too. That's why it's so bright. Yeah. They've got all these street lights that shine down. Right. Uh, especially and then when the snow is fresh snow on the ground, it's like the whole town just glows. It just glows. Exactly. No, exactly. No, it's pretty cool. No, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm a big fan of like dark space places. Right? Yeah. And, and, uh, so anyway, I get their newsletter and I think I, I sent'em some money, but in terms of participating more concretely Yeah. With the dark sky movement, yeah. I'm not there. But it's definitely something that I have that, that carries my sympathies. What are your, like big driving passions? Um, oh, well my, my passion absolutely is focus. Okay. Um, so I had an experience, uh, back in 2017 that was, uh, very emotional for me. Uh, and I found myself just, uh, in my mind going back to that experience over and over and over again, hundreds of times a day. Okay. And, um, and, and that gets distressing. And I remember thinking to myself, well, when I'm dead, I won't have to think about this anymore. Yeah. And it was a painful enough experience that I went and looked for a solution and I found it. And IFI found it with a, with an author, a speaker, thought leader, uh, Don de Ponti. Okay. And, um, and, and he published a book back in 22 called The Power of Unwavering Focus. And so, um, so I read that and, and that was not my first introduction to him. I actually met him back in 2015. Um, and then I, he had online courses and he has an app and I went through and I did all his courses and things like that. Okay. Yeah. Um, and, and maybe that coursework that I did on the app kind of like laid the foundation, but it was something about that book when I got that book in 22, that, um, it really changed my life profoundly. And I, I can't believe it's only been two and a half years since I got that book, because it feels like a lifetime ago for me. Really?'cause I've changed that dramatically. Yeah. Um, but what, what he says basically is that the key to life, the secret to life is being able to concentrate. The key to life is being able to control what it is you think about. Yeah. And he provides, he just lays out the Hindu philosophy for. Learning how to control where your awareness goes and what exercises and what practices do you implement in your life to control that. Sure. Yeah. And, um, it's, so, so that's my passion. So after, um, so I've read the book, uh, a number of times. I've been on two retreats with him. Okay. Most recent, most recently in March. Yeah. I met up with him in Cambodia and Malaysia. Okay. Um, and, uh, the book changed my life so much that I. Bought a hundred copies of the book to give away. Okay. And, um, if anybody wants a free copy, well that could have been your gift here, actually. Oh, well, that'll be your gift instead of$25 Silver Girl. Sure, sure. It'll be both. Well, for anybody, for anybody who wants a copy of this book Okay. They could just look you up. Send, send me a postcard. My address is 5 6 0 3 Falling Water Drive in Fort Collins. All right. 8 0 5 2 8. Send me a postcard with a line or two about why you wanna focus and I'll send you a free copy of the book. I like it. I, uh, there's a book I've mentioned on the podcast before. I think it's David Engle, and it's the Brain. And it's kind of that same, like we have this neuroplasticity and we, we build ourselves ruts and stuff, but when we focus and concentrate our thought, then we can kind of get out of those ruts. And it's also a garbage in, garbage out kind of a world. So if you're just. Doom scrolling and not intentionally learning new things and stuff. Like you just don't have the raw materials to work with to have good concentration and thought and focus. Everybody has the, uh, has the, uh, we have the mind for it, right? The, the, the brain. And we all have the same kind of hardware, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it, it's just a question of, of of what practices that, that we live in. But, uh, what, what Don Deponing teaches is that when you repeatedly visited the area of, of the mind with your awareness, if your awareness is constantly going to one idea or one thought, that area of the mind becomes very strong, becomes magnetic, and it pulls your awareness there. And, um, as you stop that, that area of the mind becomes weaker and less magnetic and less, less of a pull on your awareness. Hmm. Um. And then you're able to, uh, to, to, to, to, to focus on, on what you wanna focus on in life. So, so was that, was that part of the contribution to the decision on leaving chess behind? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But the, the chess thing has just been, just been one, one brick of many in terms of ways that I've changed my life. Yeah. Um, like I had a, a nervous habit as a child, and, uh, and I guess by the time I was about 15 years old, like, like since as long as I can remember, I had this nervous habit. And when I was 15 it, I started getting embarrassed by it. And then I was like, okay, I wanna, I wanna get this under control. Okay. And I, so I, I fought against that habit in my entire life, but it wasn't until I got the book that I put the final nail in the coffin. Hmm. And so, so that's, that's, can I ask like, where you choose your fingernails, but but yeah. Chew on my fingernails. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And if you look at my fingers, you'll see they're little, they don't look like everybody else's, at least not well, when I see another fingernail biter, I look at their fingers. Like, you, you bite your fingernails. So even though you stopped a long time ago, it's, they still kind of Oh, yeah. Look different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. The nail, the nail doesn't, it's not attached all the way to the edge of the finger. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like being scolded for two of my fingernails and stuff or whatever, but I never had a problem with it. Yeah. I just blow off my parents like, whatever. Yeah. I'll do what I want. That's interesting. So, um, and it just kind of allows that, it sounds like meditation in a lot of ways, right? Well, meditation is, um, is a way to practice concentration. Yeah. Um. So, yeah. Meditation is, yeah. It's a, it's a part of my practice today and, and it's, but it, it's, it's just one piece. Okay. Um, he really recommends like, you have to like, change your whole lifestyle because if you're only me, if you're only concentrating while you're meditating Mm. What are you doing for the other 23 hours of the day? Right. Right. And so what, what he teaches in the book is that what, what he advises is like almost every minute is accountable. Exactly. And, and he said, you, you, your goal is to be able to choose what you're thinking about every moment of the day. Yeah. Um, and that might sound exhausting, but I. As he says. Um, when you, once you learn how to concentrate, when you spend people time with people who are distracted, you find them exhausting. Yeah. Because they're bouncing around. Yeah. Or people that are really stressed out, or people that are anxious all the time and they just can't, well, he talks about this specifically is anxiety and fear that a lot of people, uh, live in fear and they constantly are thinking about that. Yeah. So that's the part of their mind that gets strong. Yeah. And, and pulls their awareness there. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Um, so have you studied Hinduism and such as well? Are you, um, is your wife No. From that perspective, or do you guys do anything? No, she's, she was raised Sikh, um Oh, oh, okay. Um, but yeah, all the, well, that's one of the things I really appreciate about Don Pontis book is that it's completely secular. Right. He, um, mentions in a few paragraphs here and there, what he believes. Yeah. But that's not the point of the book. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but. Absolutely. The book is based on Hindu philosophy. Yeah. And then, uh, I'm reading another book now. I actually got a a, a book club, um, um Cool. When we're reading, uh, Napoleon Hill Think And Grow Rich. Oh yeah. And his book is actually has, uh, a lot of Hindu philosophy in it as well. Oh, is that right? The similarities between Hill's Book and uh, Don Deon's book are, are profound. Matter of fact, Don Ponty told me he's been studying Napoleon Hill's book for three. Is that right? For three years. Oh, interesting. He's been studying this book. Well, I read that Think and Grow Rich, but like 20 years ago or something. Right, right, right. Like, and I don't think I was, didn't have my head quite right for it at the time. It's, um, yeah, it. Uh, well, I, I can say that, that, that my interpretation of Hill's work is based on, you know, everything I've learned with Don Deponte and, and it's Right, uh, hill, which was about a hundred years ago, right? When Hill, yeah. I came out in 37. Okay. Yeah. Not quite came out in 37, so 85 or something. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, so, no, I'm really passionate about that and I, I mean, I'll just list off, I mean, a couple other things to help me with is it, it, I used to drink more than I should. Mm-hmm. And now I don't. Um, and I, and there's just been a whole bunch of things. It's just, I, I, I'm a, I can listen to my wife much better. I'm much more focused with her. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Um,'cause I, I got in a habit of, you know, just like Uhhuh Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about something else. Right. Uhhuh and not realizing just how disrespectful that is. Right. Yeah. And, uh, so over the course of years, I've, I've, I've worked on that and now I think, well, I don't know if she'd agree with me, but sometimes I feel like I'm being a better listener than she is now. Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. Um. What else would you care to share? Oh gosh. You've been a local think tank member for a few months. Yeah. Here. Yeah. No, so I'm really, really excited. Kinda joined during a transition of a chapter. New leadership. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm really grateful for that.'cause I've been in other peer groups. Okay. And I'm just a huge fan of peer groups. Um, and I'm still in touch with, I mean, I was in a peer group in San Antonio from about 2011 to 2015, and I'm still, I still got two clients from that group. Oh, that's cool. Right. And, uh, so, um, and then I was in EO for a while, but no, the peer groups for anybody that's thinking about joining a peer group, I mean, if, if we're running a business, there's no substitute. Well, I mean, Napoleon Hill coined the mastermind term. Right, exactly. Exactly. And so that's an interesting, uh, and it's really important to stay focused on the positive elements. Yeah. You know, if, if a peer group becomes kind of a complaining session place. It doesn't function well. Yeah. It has to be a place where you're growing and learning and intentionally like prodding each other to put your heads in the right places. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I think that's a really important point, Kurt.'cause not all peer groups created equal. Right. For sure. And, and, and, uh, I've been in groups that weren't a good fit. Um, and it's not like I stuck around. Um, you, you gotta make sure it's a good fit for you. Yeah. And, and there's there's gotta be that right. Chemistry and that. Um, yeah. But when you get in a good one and you've been in, especially when you've been in for a year or two, and your peers know your business and you know them and you trust them and you can be vulnerable in front of them and you can bring your toughest issues. Where else are you gonna get that you're not gonna get it from your spouse? It's a special place for sure. Yeah. You know, because they don't, you know, it's just, well, they don't understand it nearly as Right. And they're not, and, and so, so you're with people from the, that they're running their own business. It's a different business, right? Yeah. And they, they, they bring a perspective that, that you're not gonna tap into otherwise. Yeah. I think you're right. Well, thanks for being a part of it. I'm, I'm glad we found a, a good chapter fit for you. Yeah, me too. Me too. Um, what would you say your most, um, like pivotal decision or change in business has been? Or is it right now? Oh yeah. Is the changes over the next 24 months for. For your business, kind of the most greatest season? Yeah. No, I'm super excited from a business now.'cause I, I tell you, I always like, I I, I think I mentioned this a little earlier, I always felt like I've been playing second fiddle to these SaaS companies and now, right. I feel like with ai, the, the, the playing field is level. Okay.'cause now I'll be able to bring software solutions at a similar price, or, or no, it's not, it's gonna be a little bit more than SaaS, but it's gonna be a much better fit for my clients. Right. And I really think Kurt, I mean, I've been doing custom software for, for 24 years plus. And, and, um, and they're really gonna struggle to find any one software that sells that scale. Yeah. Right, right. Like,'cause it would be better if it was just a little bit more Well, their, their business model is all about selling the same piece of software to every company out there. Right, right, right. And making it, you know, adding all these features and, and, and buttons and, and, and, yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and whatnot. And, uh. Yeah, they're, they're not gonna be able to leverage AI to, to the extent that I will. Yeah. And that, that's why I feel like the, the, uh, custom, custom software is in the ascendancy. Yeah. I dig, dig it. I dig it. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you spending some time with me today. Absolutely. An enjoyable conversation. And, uh, you know, I wish you very much, uh, I, I, I'd like nothing more than a David versus Goliath, uh, victory for David. Okay. And so go get those SaaS companies, get that market share back. I will. I, I'll focus on it. All right, well, got speed. Yeah. Focus on it. That's right. Oh yeah. And Shaka. Alright. Thanks Kurt.
