EXPERIENCE 213 | Zak George, Head Coach and Owner at Zak George Landscaping

My guest today was Zak George, Founder and Owner and Head Coach at Zak George Landscaping, LLC.  ZGL - as the trucks around town say on the side - is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year!  Zak has a strong history of growth in the Residential and Commercial Construction and Commercial Maintenance segment, plus a substantial snow removal operation to keep some of the guys busy in the winter.  

Zak has an interesting business model in that he relies heavily on long term HB2 Visa employees, who return seasonally - mostly from Mexico and Guatemala - and we discuss his concerns about labor force in 2025, and how ZGL was almost taken down by an HB2 shortage in 2017, amid over-reliance on seasonal workers.  Zak has a big beard and a big heart, is a fellow Rotarian, and is a joy to have a conversation with - so I hope you enjoy, as I did - my conversation with Zak George.  

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My guest today was Zach George, founder and owner and head coach at Zach George Landscaping, L-L-C-Z-G-L as the trucks around town, say on the side is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. Zach has a strong history of growth in the residential and commercial construction and the commercial maintenance segment, plus a substantial snow removal operation to keep the guys busy in the winter. Zach has an interesting business model in that he relies heavily on long-term HB two Visa employees who return seasonally, mostly from Mexico and Guatemala. We discussed his concerns about labor force in 2025 and how ZGL was almost taken down by an HB two visa shortage in 2017 amid overreliance on seasonal workers. Zach has a big beard and a big heart is a fellow Rotarian and is a joy to have a conversation with. So I hope you enjoy as I did my conversation with Zach. George, let's have some fun. Welcome to the Loco Experience Podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy. And through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. My guest today is Zach George and he is the head coach at Zach George Landscape. Welcome Zach. Thank you. Thanks for having me in. So, um, just about everybody in Northern Colorado has seen the ZGL trucks running around. Um, maybe, but for those that don't really know what that means. Sure. Do you wanna just kind of set the stage, uh, what are you guys up to? Yeah. Zack George Landscaping, uh, celebrating 20 years, starting this month. Oh, congratulations. Um, yep. Started in 2005 up here and, um, just kind of been working timeless landscapes. And you didn't even mention that when I booked you for this podcast. It's kind of wild. Yeah. 20 year anniversary, like just totally lined up. Yeah. Yeah. So I worked out pretty sweet. But, uh, yeah, going on 20 years and, um. Really just, uh, doing a lot of growth and, um, just keeping, keeping going. And commercial, residential install maintenance, we're 50 50 maintenance and construction. Okay. And we do high end residential construction, commercial construction, and then commercial maintenance. Okay. Yeah. So no residential maintenance. So pretty near, um, kind of the same. General market offerings as, uh, one of my previous guests. Yep. Uh, the linns. Yep, yep. Most scalable landscape companies kind of take that same path. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of the recurring revenue model plus, yes. Um, good project work.'cause we can Yep. We don't wanna maintain crappy projects. Yep, yep. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, um, and like, what's your market territory? Uh, we do the occasional job in Cheyenne and then we sprawl down to Longmont. Okay. Uh, foothills out to Evans. So kind of a decent square. Yeah. Kind of the, the northern Colorado where all the people live footprint. Yep. Yep. Don't go south of Longmont much occasionally for a certain client. Yeah. Um, do a couple jobs in Steamboat. Couple jobs in Estes Park. Yep. Kind of that just gives you a reason to go up to Steamboat for more. Uh, it's, yeah. It's not bad at all. I don't mind. I happen to manage those projects when we go up there. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, and, and what's your like team? Uh, I, I don't have any. Are you? Yeah. 30, 50 guys, uh, depending it goes up and down. Seasonal, probably peak season we're a hundred. Oh wow. Okay. Yep. We run about a hundred at full staff, guys and gals probably. Yep. Full gamut of people running about 45 visa workers now. Oh wow. Okay. Um, so we, you just, at the end of the day, we can't make the lawn the grass grow in the winter months. Yeah. So we need seasonal people to come in, help us. That gives us a legal workforce. Yep. And it allows us to, um, and have guys that just show up every single year. And do you help them with that and stuff too, or is that they they kind of go get the process? Yeah, it's a, it's a Visa program. Um, it doesn't save us any money. A lot of people think that the Visa program is cheap labor and it's, yeah. It's ultimately more expensive, but it's about client experience. So how do we give better client experience every single year instead of trying to hire new people every year and stuff like that? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you'd be surprised how many commercial clients are like, I want the truck to park here at the exact same time. I want it mowed every Friday. I want it looking like this. Mm-hmm. You have to stripe it like that. And in order to do that, you need guys that are consistent and understand the work. Right. Well. Communication systems that helps everybody know what we're supposed to do. Yeah. And, and the grass grows no matter what. Right. So we gotta make sure everybody shows up to work every single day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Um, and so, so you've got different teams, I imagine, like, uh, a truck with a trailer and four guys is kind of a normal maintenance or service team, or maybe install teams. Yep. And then certain amount of office admin kind of. Yep. So we use, um. We use two, two man teams all the way up to four or five man teams on the maintenance side, depending on the size of the properties and the routing on the construction side, we found that three is the smallest and we go up to five or eight depending on how big the commercial job is. Um, and the location vicinity of that. And do you do mostly in-house, like your, if there's heavy equipment that you need to dig big holes and things like that, you're doing it or are you contracting some out? Yeah, we don't sub out much. We use a few snow subcontractors and, um, a few other small skills that we don't do in-house. Concrete masonry, stuff like that. Yeah. But for the most part we do, we do a lot of it in-house, A lot of the pavers, planting, irrigation systems, all that stuff. So this is the man stuff for, for your whole property? Yeah. The irrigation or the, uh, the, the world of landscaping's a little bit like the mechanic world where in the eighties you just kind of pulled up underneath a tree and worked on your car and anymore Yeah. Everything's really automated and really high tech. And you know, we're using electric mowers and automated mowers and electric, uh, equipment. And so it's, it's pretty high tech stuff. These irrigation controllers require pretty smart people to run them. Mm-hmm. Um, we're using central control, well planning the amount of water and there's probably sensors that you gotta program and stuff like that, I reckon. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts to it, so it's really takes, uh, people with a lot of, a lot of smarts and uh, yeah. That passion for the industry is, is the water one of the biggest challenges, like moving the water to the right places to make the, make the landscape do its thing, you know, ultimately Colorado people love green grass, right? Right. So we Well, and green plants, green plants, plants you with, with wood chips in between is okay too. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. So, you know, and, and there's been kind of a, a target on our back as an industry for the last probably 10 years, really trying to Why are you planting all this grass? Save water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a resource we can't make more of. So, um, ultimately we're seeing more moving and they wanna see, uh, less water consumption. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's, I mean, it's expensive too. Even 15 years ago in Colorado, it was a lot cheaper to fill your bathtub than it is today. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that, I don't know if you've seen in Southwest, uh, Fort Collins, they're looking at 30% rate increase per year for the next five years. Oh, really? Uhhuh. Oh dang. Yeah. Infrastructure's not cheap. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So, so you've got a number of both service and, and construction teams out there. Then what's the rest of of your business model consist of? Kind of the ar, AP kind of billing, office management stuff, maybe some sales? Uh, yep. Um, you know, I like to ultimately find people that are passionate about the industry as well and let'em just do their thing. So we've got, uh, managers that, uh, oversee. The entire maintenance team, the operations team, hr, um, accounting, things like that. And then we have a couple sales guys Yep. That do, uh, design, um, design work, design sales. Oh, cool. Yeah. So they're both kind of designers plus sales reps. Yeah.'cause they're selling their project anyway. Yeah. You're ultimately Oh, that's way better than having like a, just a sales person that's like, let me connect you with our designers. Yes. Ultimately, yeah. Yeah. Sorry to say. Yeah. It keeps you, they're ultimately the point of contact from the start of the project all the way to the end. Yeah. And clients like that, right? I mean, that gives them a face and someone that they know and they can trust and work with them all the way through the whole project. Sure. Um, we also have account managers, commercial account managers. Okay, sure. And those guys, uh, happen to have three guys right now and they. They massage those relationships with our commercial clients and ultimately make sure that, you know, if we're under contract on something, people get what they're looking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just had Pete Galey on, he had a janitorial business. Yes. Uh, you know, Pete maybe. Yep. Yeah. Um, and kind of a little bit similar, right? Like especially on the service side, the maintenance side. It's like, well, what do you want? I can make your grass look perfect and I could cost this much, or, you know, whatever. I used to think that, uh, what we did was difficult until I met Pete and he told me that all of his people were in at night. Right. He's like, all my work gets done in the middle of the night. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's a whole level of complexity that I never thought about. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. But otherwise there's a little bit of a customization to every maintenance experience. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's ultimately what we do is we try to sell people. Not sell, but we, we offer the ability to customize a plan. And I think that's the difference between, you know, a local service versus a national service is we're not a one size fits all, and we just kind of, we'll allow people to adjust based on their needs and fit their budget and we'll, we'll make up a plan that works. Yeah. Well for them ultimately, um, like when you've got these designers selling projects, like they're estimators too, basically, right? Yep. Like they've just built enough experience, probably almost an apprenticey kind of thing for a while. Yeah, yeah. We ultimately have to take'em in, um, usually. We like'em to have a little bit of industry experience before we just kind of take'em in, because you gotta really know the ins and outs of the, uh, of the industry and it's not something you want to dabble with. So we want people that understand the industry know what they're getting into, and then we kind of start to teach'em and educate'em on, you know, some design principles if they need some tuning up on that. And then we teach'em how to do the estimating. And we use an all encompassing software for our organization from the time they make a phone call in until the final invoice. It's all tracked, uh, time, labor, uh, materials, equipment, pos, everything comes in and outta one. So the nice thing is we've kind of set it up to help them in work in their favor where they can, um. Uh, you know, use this software to help them. Yeah. And so is this an industry specific software or something that you've developed over time? It is, it's more tailored towards, towards our industry. It's a software company outta St. Louis, Missouri, and they built this software originally for a landscape contractor out there a long time ago. And it's morphed into landscaping. And then they also do some, uh, port of entry stuff and some other things, but Oh, interesting. They ultimately tailored this one software specifically for the landscape industry. Oh yeah. And um, it's not cheap, but it ultimately helps us keep everything organized. Yeah. Well I imagine that's. Like the customer journey can be, especially when you're talking residential or commercial. And who's the decider, who signs the contract. Yeah. And ultimately what it does is it gives us history too, right? So we can see past invoices, we can see when services were completed. We can see who did the service time of day, the service was done. Um, and so, you know, as, as there for a while when labor was an interesting factor for a lot of organizations yeah, we, we had to be able to plug and play as, as people shifted. Mm. And um, this gives people history so we can go back to, since we started and ultimately pull up how much everyone spent on what and where and how. Fascinating. Yeah. Warranty items, it's helped us clean up a lot of things. And that's almost your whole source of knowledge for the whole team. Yeah. Like I imagine you might use QuickBooks or some other systems. In the back of the house. But as far as all your employees are concerned, this is my thing. Yeah. Yeah. I would say 80% of the organization runs out of there and then we have some kind of side, side softwares and some other things that we use as well. But that's where majority of everything happens. Yeah. And it's cloud based too. So when Covid hit, we were able to pivot really fast and everyone could work from their truck work from home. Yeah. Any place you got wifi? Yes, sir. Interesting. Yep. Made it happen, huh? Yeah. Well, and you were probably essential'cause the grass keeps growing. Grass grows. Yep. Doesn't stop. Um, on the like leadership side, what's your kind of leadership team look like, if, yep. So our executive leadership team, there's four of us. Um, we have an HR manager, our operations on the construction side, and then, um, our, uh, our, our, uh, operat customer service delivery almost on that maintenance side. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense. Yep. So the four of us kind of run the whole organization and HR is really such an important thing.'cause even though you've got a lot of returning people, they're still. A lot of hiring and Yeah. Yeah. It's tough to do every year. Yeah. You got, uh, your hiring, your, uh, recruiting, you know, compliance, you know, with all these new rules and regulations too. You got sick days and all these things, paternity leave and stuff, paternity leave. Yeah, it's crazy. So hrs really kind of helped us. He came on five years ago and he's really helped us kind of elevate the organization. Right. Well, and understanding what your input costs are. Yeah. You know,'cause ultimately you're kind of a labor selling and design organization, right? A hundred percent. We sell labor. Yeah. So the full, full ticket price, you know, it's not just their$25 an hour kind of thing or whatever. Yeah. But it's also this and this and this and this. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You know, we wanna retain good talent too. So ultimately you need good benefits and you need, you know what, you gotta have all the things. Yeah. And that's ultimately where, where he comes in line. And he does a great job. He's, he's more of a COO for us and really, um, helps just train the organization, move the organization in the right direction and keep us going. So when did you start Zach? George Landscaping? 2005. So that's 20 years. 20 years. We just talked about that. Yeah. Um, so. Like a hundred ish people, peak season. Like what's your like, growth place from here? Do you just get more market share that box that we were talking about? Or do you go to other communities and offer, or do you just like try to stay the same size and yeah. Know what that look like for you? I think it's, you know, it's interesting. That's kind of been the journey the last couple years is what does that look like, you know? Yeah. We, it was five years ago is how do we get to where we're at now and now it's kinda what's the next step and where's the real growth gonna be happening in northern Colorado? You know, for us, I see us probably, uh, picking up more market share in the Longmont area, uh, on the maintenance side, probably also in northern Colorado on the maintenance side, construction's pretty agile. They can move and shake and go wherever. Mm-hmm. But that maintenance, you gotta be close to your destination every day. So ultimately they'll, they'll probably start to just continue to pick stuff up. Do you maintain stuff that you haven't built? So you're open to that? Yes. Yep, yep. We do a lot of maintenance on stuff that wasn't built, you know, and the HOA model, um, has only been around for about 40 years or so. Right. And so that kind of whole model's pretty new the metro district's even newer than that. And so, uh, we do, we do everything from car washes all the way up to. Huge, huge, you know, HOAs complexes, green metro districts, different things like that. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yep, yep. So there's a lot of opportunity probably just capturing, like I was thinking to myself between, between you and Lindgren, there's a couple of kind of bigger companies. Maybe there's some big nationals or is there, what, what else is the competitive landscape? Yeah. The, the big nationals are definitely trying to play in our area. Um, they've tried a couple times in the past have failed. Okay. Um, our market's just not quite big enough one, I remember one of'em, uh, read something. Yeah. Valley Crest. Valley Crest, yes. Yeah. They tried hard a few years ago. Yeah. That was their second time. Oh, is that right? Uh, yeah. They, they, good job. I love David Goliath's stories. They, they tried to come back in. They want come back in a third time. Okay. Okay. Um, but they're kind of doing some restructuring right now, so we'll see what happens. They're distracted by other. And their stock's getting all kind of chopped up. Right? Uh, and they're, they're, they got a whole new CEO and they're trying to shift and, and do things well, and they have to be all concerned about all that kind of stuff, right? They do like actually being strategic about how do we enter this market, like that's low on their list. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And they, it's really interesting. Their, their stock prices are driven by things that don't. Increase client satisfaction. Right. And so it's kind of on, it's kind of interesting from the outside how important talk more, uh, because that sounds like there's some business insight there. Yeah. It's, you know, at the, we're a service level organization, right? We're a service industry and we wanna ultimately make sure the client's happy. And what they have to do is they're not worried about the client, they're worried about their shareholders. Sure. And so they ultimately are trying to drive shareholder value and stock pricing. And so what's important to them isn't necessarily what's a winning recipe for clients and that can have some backlash. And so we're kind of seeing it up and down the front range that, you know, they'll have a real strong presence in one area and then they may lose some of that presence. And yeah, they're good in, they're good at some of the things that they do, um, but then there's other things on the maintenance side that they probably leave. Yeah. Leave some of the market open. Then outside of that, there's probably. Lots of five and 10 and 20 person companies out there that do mostly service in some like construction or whatever, but they're maybe a little more affordable, but less dependable kind of thing. Is that kinda the marketplace or, yeah. You know, we're seeing a big hole in the middle right now. Okay. Um, that, so it's onesie, twosies, and then the biggies. Yes. Yeah. From my perspective, you're kind of seeing that under five seven and is a good number, and then you're seeing big, you know, over 50 people. Interesting. Um, that middle just gets real hard. That was probably the hardest years for us, was that lots of overhead managers and you just don't have enough revenue to cover it all. Right, right. And so you've really gotta push through that ceiling through either acquisitions or big growth plans or the right people or whatever that looks like to kind of get there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanna zoom back to that period in your life at, at some point, but, uh, yeah, like, so to refocus on the looking ahead part like. So capturing some more market share. Yep. Um, but if it's just a couple of bigs and onesie twosies, you'll have to either geographically expand or just be satisfied being, you know, a dominant business and looking for other things. Would you ever add other services to your client collection? Yeah, I think for us the, you know, we've kind of figured out what's. What works and what goes well outside of that, we'd start playing in other people's market, whether it's tree care or some of these other things. Right? And that, that just gets super hard for us. So right now it's probably a three-prong approach for us. One, can we squeeze the turnip just a little bit more? Tighten up on what we got? Yep. Grow with our existing re uh, sources. Ultimately as our team, as we believe that our desire or demand for our. Services is higher than we can offer right now. Mm. Okay. So we can grow through that way. And then, uh, possible acquisition, you know, there's this big baby boomer push, right? Sure. Everyone's looking at retiring. Well, if you're one of those seven employee landscapes firms and you're 62 Yep. That sounds pretty nice. Yep. And some guys, you know, have been running really good businesses for 30 years. Yeah. And, um, they just never got real big. And they're good with that. And they still have good accounts, so. Right, right. Yeah. The acquisition is never off of the table for us. Yeah. Well, in, in some cases you can even give'em a soft landing. They can have a job for a while. Absolutely. And stay busy, you know? Yeah.'cause I know we're so healthy now. Yeah. Right. Like when me and you were little kids. 62 year olds were pretty old. Yeah. Now they're like going to Acapulco and stuff like that. Yeah, totally. You know? Totally. And they, they don't necessarily wanna sell their business at 62 and just be like on the golf course all the time. Yep, yep, yep. They wanna still keep contributing, right? Yeah. But they just, they don't wanna carry some of that risk and they probably make great account managers and Absolutely. Things like that. Maybe designer sales people and stuff like that. Yep, yep. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yep. Have you worked with, uh, Hines Irrigation at all? So we've worked a little bit with Hines. We've done some of their work. Yeah. Um, you the installer for some of their designs? Installers, some of, yeah. So they typically get picked up. What I see is they get picked up by, um, the architect, firm, engineer firm. Yep. As a leg for a major project or some sort of project. Yep. And then we'll come in under the GC level or the hard bid level. Here's the specs that and pick it up. Yeah. Heinz put through or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Great business man. They've been around a long time. Seems like he's a really interesting philosophical guy as well. Yeah. Okay. Um. So, yeah. Anyway, I digress. Nice, nice, nice. Yeah. But, uh, so, so yeah, I think that makes sense. And then like, how old are you? 44. 44, 45. Oh, you look, you look as old as me, kind of was. Just'cause you're hair. I'm 50. Okay. I'm getting there. Sorry. You know I'm getting there. Yeah. You've been, so you've been running this thing since you were. Just a puppy kind of, yeah. 25. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Some hard years. That's what you're looking at. Yeah. Yeah. What was the, what was the impetus? How did, no, I don't think so. You look, you look pretty, pretty young underneath that beard, but, uh, the beard adds 10 years usually. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me look a older, uh, so how do we get going? Yeah. We, um, when I started, I grew up in east of Colorado Springs. I was in the tree business, worked for a land, a nursery down there. Oh, okay. Went to CSU, graduated, had no idea what I wanted to do. Um, and came up here, worked for another landscape firm for a short stint, and just thought, man, there's gotta be a better way to do this. Huh. And, uh, here we are. Just, here we are. Yeah. 28. And so, like, what was the first steps? Like, did you. Uh, just like make a flyer, knock on doors, like steal customers from your boss. Like luckily, no, none of that. None of that. Luckily my dad, uh, my dad was kind of a, a business guy himself. Okay. And, uh, he worked for Midas for 30 years and, you know, he had seen what's good marketing, what's bad marketing, and Hmm. They gave me an old farm here locally, uh, in Colorado Springs area. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that's where you started, Zack Sarge, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then I, we popped up here right after, um, right after my wife, now girlfriend. At the time she was going to school, she wanted to go to CSU. That's how we ended up back up here. Okay. So, yeah. And, uh, so you kinda went home after college at CSU and went to figure it out. Dad helped you kind of. Get something off the ground. Yeah. Yeah. So Dad kind of gave me, here's an old farm truck, it's worth a couple hundred bucks. Yep. And here's$400, uh, to run an ad in the Colorado, one in Fort Collins. Yeah. And you can have these old shovels. Yeah. That's pretty much what happened. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then it was kind of just, uh, you know, keep, keep the foot on the gas. And you already had the skillset from having worked for this, uh, tree farm and stuff, or parts of it? Parts of it, yeah. A lot of it was over promising and then delivering. Yes sir. Yeah. Yeah. That was totally what it was. It was, I had some of the skillset along the way. Yeah. Learned some of it, but it ultimately needed, uh, much more honing in, let's put it that way. So 2005 was still a pretty salty time. There was probably an. Over demand and under supply of landscape construction especially. Yeah. Like the housing market was in that oh four to oh seven ish time burning pretty good. Yeah. You know, when I first got started red, I didn't have much of a name and I was a transplant, so I didn't know. Right. I didn't know realtors, I didn't know other contractors. I didn't know GCs. I didn't know anybody. And so as a transplant, you kind of just are grassroot in it, right. Getting it going. Yeah. Yeah. So nowadays you got enough connections you can, you can put things together. Were were you like residential focused at first then? A hundred percent yeah. A hundred percent residential focused. Yeah. And uh, mainly just renovations. Right. Started doing renovations. Mm-hmm. Teamed up with a local designer up system and Yeah. Yep. Started doing that. And then, um, there was a kind of a higher profile guy in town asked me to come over to his house and look at it, and I was there one day and he goes, I need you to mow my lawn. And I was like, I don't mow lawns. And he was like. Go down to Sears and buy a lawnmower tonight and come back tomorrow. And I was like, okay. So there I was, started mowing. Mowing lawns. Okay. So, and like, is that some of the, did you share that story? Like who, who that person was? It was Pat McGuffin at the Rio. Oh really? Yeah, I know Pat. Uh, my connection with Pat started when, uh, black Bottle Brewery was looking for a home. Okay. I was the banker. That was my very last banking transaction was financing Black bottle. Yeah. May it rest in peace? Yeah. Yeah. And Godspeed verboten because it's nice to have a neighborhood brewery in that neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. But it was, uh, I got to know Pat because he was effectively interviewing potential tenants for his space there next door to El Monte. Yes. And uh, what I, I hate to say this story'cause Pat needs to come on this podcast one of these days too. He should. You know, he, he struggled with El Monte for years to try to make that thing work, right? Yeah. Like it was always just, it was so good. Yes. But it just was never very busy. And I'm sure he never made any money and sorry for that, you know? Um, and I'm sure he blamed it on the location a lot. And then black bottle opened and it was like busy as shit all the time. Right away it was, I know. To me it was like, oh, that was probably a nice slice of humble pie. Ah, man. That corner of town was just, it wasn't there until a little bit later. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Had he hung on just a little longer, but I don't think it was so it goes, it was a tough, he's fine. Yeah. It was a tough too. Pat's doing just fine. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but cool. So he was your first little maintenance client? Yeah. Yeah. He was like, Hey, I need you to mow my lawn. I was like, all right, here we go. You probably made a lot of introductions after that. Sure. Yeah. I figured it out and just kept going. Yeah. So I started mowing lawns. Interesting. And I was like, interesting. Well, I got one lawn, now I need to get more. Right. So I started lawn. I'm gonna have a lawnmower. Yeah. Like, I kinda just run it once a month. Yeah. I started picking up more. So, and then you eventually dropped the residential maintenance though? We did, uh, what year was that? 2013 I want to say. Okay. We dropped the residential maintenance. We used to do residential service work, residential maintenance, and it's just hard to offer that real specialized, hands-on approach in a scalable size. Yeah, you can definitely do it. There's great companies in town that do residential service work. We just, for us on the scale side, it just wasn't, wasn't, uh, makes sense. Attainable makes sense. I mean, that's one of the challenges of scaling, right? Like you have kinda these different layers of costs and equipment and overhead and you can do most of your own things in the construction side, but that all comes with it. A cost, you know? Yeah, yeah. And you can't be as nimble as that one man sprinkler maintenance operation. That a hundred percent keeps a hundred clients and keeps'em all happy. A hundred percent. Mrs. Smith or you know, Joe Schmo homeowner. They have a specific way they want it. Right. And that's, that's ultimately what gets hard is how do you take that information outta your brain, put it down on paper, and then make that to where the tech or whoever's going there can do it exactly as they want it. And ultimately it's their home. So if they want the lilac cut at the wrong time of the year, yes ma'am. That's not what I recommend, but I'm here to help you. We always could'em in May. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's whatever, whatever we had to do. So that was, that's kind of why we Oh yeah. And I imagine your blame was probably overflowing first, right. As you're building this collection of what people want. Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, gets tough quick. So what was your, what was your scaling journey like in the first few years you grew up to a pretty mid-size. What was your, your. Struggle spot you mentioned was kind of in that, uh, tweeners. Yeah. I ultimately just lacked, uh, understanding and that's kind of how we ended up somewhat to the size we were. And then we started to pull the reins back and go, okay, now we have a little bit better understanding. But it was just, I gotta do more work. Just take, solve, solve my problems. And yeah. So we ultimately were, if it meant more revenues, regardless of whether it was a fit or not, uhhuh, it was bad revenue, some of it for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we ultimately, um, started, yeah, just slowly getting bigger and bigger. Oh seven obviously hit, that was kind of a weird year for everybody. We just kind of held flat, did some weird things that through that year, and then oh eight picked up a little bit more oh nine. Oh wow. And then we just kind of kept going. Yeah, cool. Outgrew our space. I was running it out of. I mean, I started it like most people out of a, my dad's rental, my mom and dad's rental in Fort Collins. And then we moved across town, had a half acre, ran outgrew that, moved across town. Um, so we just kind of started there and ultimately, you know, surrounding yourself with smarter people that can kind of help you navigate some of those, those questions of which direction should we go. What would you say, like, why did you choose that name head coach as like what you call yourself on your LinkedIn profile, um, and what would. What would some of your key people say on that context as well, I guess, if you can imagine. Yeah. I mean, ultimately it's a, it's a position of servitude, right? I'm there to, I'm there to help other people show'em. Um, but I'm not the one out there making the plays. Yeah. You know, so I'm kind of on the sidelines and I'm helping call out some different things and, you know, looking for blind spots and looking for areas that we need to get better and things like that. And that's ultimately the position where, you know, I'm responsible when things go good. I'm responsible when things go bad, but I'm not on the field making the plays every day. Yeah, yeah. And so it's kind of a, you know, I felt the metaphor fit and if I'm there, I gotta be able to one, you know, taking the good, taking the bad. Yeah. Yeah. But also also calling out when there's issues coming up. When was that transition for you? When, like at what employee count, if you will, when you no longer had a lot of your time in front of your customers? I. You know, every year it's gotten a little better for me. Um, I would say in the last couple years is probably the best, but once we hit 50 people, it ultimately, I had to start making a decision and relying on others and saying, these, we trust these people. We know they're part of the team. They understand our mission, they know where we're going. Yeah. They understand that, you know, it's not about the mighty dollar, it's about clients and it's about the name, and it's about what we're ultimately trying to do in the community. Yeah. What, uh, have you done some of the, the, the deep work, you know, the mission, vision, values, calming it to your front lines and stuff like that? Yeah, a hundred percent. We've done a bunch of that stuff and we, we can get. You know, really wrapped up in some of that stuff. But our, our big tagline is we make people's lives better through landscaping, and that's it. We're not cops, so people don't get mad at us. Right. Uh, we ultimately, people want us there. We don't care if you're growing weed in your backyard. We don't care. I mean, my, so my landscape guy is, uh, also the, the creator of the, uh, lightning mini golf in Old Town West. I don't know if you know Matt Gettig or not. Okay. Um, right at Whitcomb and LaPorte. So there's, there's like 10 different free mini golf holes scattered around there. Yes. And my neighbor built them during Covid just to give people a reason to like be together and be outside and stuff. Yep. But he builds'em in his, mostly his irrigation and landscaping clients, front media and things. Nice. Um, without city permission or anything like that. Love it. Um, but anyway, um, his, um, his opinion is that like he. 45% of yards seem to have some homegrown going on these days. Or maybe it's only 25, but he's like, every time I go in Mrs. Johnson's backyard, if it's not in her backyard, it's in the neighbors across the street or over the next fence. Yeah. You, we certainly see that. I would say we probably have a handful of clients that had, um, operations just in the house. Yeah. So you're always smelling the fans even before it was even, uh, legit, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I imagine. Yeah. So you're not the police, you're here to make your life better through landscaping. That's it. Yeah. I mean, people are happy, right? They, they engage with us so we're not doing cold calls and, um, well that communicates such a good consultative approach, you know? Do you want raspberries in your backyard? Yeah. You know,'cause you just. Remember picking raspberries from your mom's tree when you were a kid? Well, we could probably make that happen or whatever, right? Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. We're here to make your life better. And so, you know, again, people aren't mad at us very often, which is nice. Yeah. And I think that's why a lot of people flock to the industry. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what would your, your kind of longtime employees say about, um, you as a leader, but also the, the culture generally? I mean, beyond that. A tagline, if you will. Yeah. I think they're ultimately thankful I've matured over the years. Right, okay. Yeah. A little bit of a wild guy back in the day. All right. And, uh, so I think they're, they're thankful that matured over the years and, um, yeah. I think that they're thankful, you know, I think they're ultimately also, uh, I don't micromanage much. Yeah. Um, you know, we just kinda set our goals for the year and we, we strive to hit'em and we all work pretty hard to get there. Yeah. I dig it. I dig it. Kind of a camaraderieship Yeah. A hundred percent. Without it sounding Marxist or anything like that. Yeah. So, um, and you and I know each other at least a little bit through Rotary Club. Yeah. You are a member of the, the Wednesday group, Fort Collins Wednesday group. Yep. The downtown group, I think they call themselves. Yeah. We are the 1918 club. Yep. The OGs. Yep. OGs. Yep. Yep. So been a member now for, whoa, quite a while back when they were at the Drake Center is when I joined. Okay. Man, that might've been seven, eight years ago now. Yeah. At least, I bet at least, yeah. They've kind of hopped around. Covid kind of forced their hand to move a couple times and cost and things like that. Yeah. I visited the club a couple times back in the day when they were in the Lincoln Center. I don't know if that was before Drake Center. They were at the Lincoln Center before, probably before the Drake Center. Probably both before and after maybe? Yes. They're back at the Lincoln Center. Oh, they are good. Yes, they can, more likely for me to visit. We could do a, we could do a swaperoo sometime on, we should, uh, Thursday mornings at Ginger and Baker, so. Okay. We're not far out of each other's. Uh, okay. That's good. So it's lunch at the Lincoln Center. Yep. Lunch, catering, lunch. It's Wednesday noon. Wednesday noon. Yep. Be there 10 minutes before so you can That's 20. Yeah, 20 is better. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah. That's an open invitation for anybody that wants to check more out about Rotary. A hundred percent. Um, a hundred percent. I, I considered the Foothills Lunch Club when I was first joining when it was like, it's so far away, but yeah. Um, so are you breakfast? Breakfast, yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah, we were kinda a small club when I joined, but it's gotten, we're 85 now or something. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Getting up there. Yeah, pretty. So I have a pretty, uh, my Rotary, my impact is I'm part of the Peach Fest. Okay. So I helped put that. Oh you are? Yeah. Good. Yes. So you work with Dave, Dave Haas, yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. And Steve Lane. Oh, good. And a couple other key. That's your main kind of shoulder that's into the wheel. That's, yep. Yep. I was doing it before Covid, so I figured I just gotta keep going. Well, I was thinking about sponsoring Peach Fest this year, actually. Okay. But I should probably let Dave get that win, not you. So. Yeah. Good, Dave. I'll talk more with him about it instead. Yeah, yeah. Um, I've been, so for years. So it's my birthday weekend typically Uhhuh Peach Fest. And so I usually go on a big long camping trip and it's Realities for Children Ride. Oh yes. The last couple years has been conflicting too and I've taken part in that a bunch of times and I'm a member there Uhhuh, and so it's like, but this year they're both on different weekends. Uhhuh. Yes. Yeah. Uh, but I might still be gone with one for my birthday. Yeah. Luckily Dave's kind of kept the torch going, which is awesome. He's great. Yeah. Yeah. He's pretty passionate about it, which is really nice. Yeah. Well, the event has evolved over the years to really become, uh, a neat thing. It has. Yeah. Easier to say yes to supporting and things like that. Yeah. And it's not as crazy as it used to be. I mean now it's just good bands music, beer. People can't complain about that. Not, not so many things going on. Doesn't have many crazy, not many things. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a exactly. My, I'm a sergeant at Arms. Okay. Uh, is kind of where I give much of my efforts these days. Okay. To the Breakfast Club. So I introduce all the visiting guests and Okay. Good. Kind of, you know, if people need to shut up and listen to the program and I raise heck and that kind thing. There you go. There you go. But it's, uh, allows me to, uh, do some good benefit, you know, without being overburdened. Yeah. And plus my attendance is way better. Ah, yes. That is that having something to do every month. My attendance does struggle a lot of months during CI was like, Ugh. Yeah. I've had all the Zoom meetings I can handle. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, coming back and we, we, we were at the. Oh, the Marriott? Yes. Um, and then like came back into in-person meetings at Ginger and Baker. Okay. Ginger and Baker is basically exactly between my house and my office here. Okay. That works out perfect. Which like, oh, my whole life is like contained within 1.3 miles now. That's amazing. Thank you. That's nice. Yeah. I should be riding my bicycle. I was about that. So drive from that big old ambulance out there. But do you, do you ride a bicycle? That was my next question. I do, yes. Okay, good. Yes. I actually just went for a nice 10 mile ride on Saturday. Okay, nice. So, uh, but I've grown out of that habit. Yeah. Um, I wanted to acknowledge, um, this nice gift, um, I got from Zach here, A ZGL coffee cup. A nice hand molded clay. From It says M something. Mk. Mk. Michael Kreisberg. That's our buddy Michael. Yep. He handmade those this year. So I had a certain number of those made and gave them out to some of our good clients and Wow, I'm really honored. I thought, uh, forgot coffee drink. I got like four of these left and I got this podcast thing with Kurt. That's great. I wanna make sure they go to good people ultimately. So you don't know enough about me yet, but, um, oh, I'll tell you the story about, oh, by the way, I had some Chinese company make that glass with our brand on it. Hey, but I did have, uh, Zoe's Bakery create the, the hot sauce. I appreciate it for you. So that's awesome. That's a local product. Thank you. Um, so my story I mentioned when you told me Michael made this cup on the way in. Yep. Um. So green ride, uh, Colorado before groom. Yes. That was one of my more successful banking startups. I financed that back in the day in like 2009 with like seven old buses or vans basically. Yep. And a little bit of working capital. Um, but they introduced me to Michael and said, Hey, this guy, all of our vans for us, he can sell stuff, do stuff. And the bank had repossessed a, a mobile home down by like Evans. Okay. Like out in the country down south of Milli and Evans, somewhere down in there. And so I had at the time, a 1995 Audi S six. Okay. Um, uh, I don't know if you're familiar. Yeah. But a nice, uh, and it had some extra boosty, uhhuh and some Porsche breaks and free flow exhaust and all that. Ed. So we go down and look at this place and he is like, I don't know man, you know, maybe 4,500, you know, sold. And I don't even really remember. I think he did sell it for us. Okay. He made a little money. We made a little money, but leaving that place, it was like raining and I'm like going on to Highway 34 from this county road exit and I did like this amazing, like 20 to 75 mile an hour drifting acceleration. Oh, that's sweet. Uh, merging onto the highway. Okay. And Michael didn't flinch. Really? He was in the car with you? Yes. Okay. Because I took him down to see this trailer and I'm like, dude, I like that guy.'cause he trusts that I know what the fuck I'm doing. That's, and I do. That's, that's awesome. Um, and not everybody. When they first meet, a person really wants to do this, like multi gear shifting drift. Yes. In this supercar from That's funny. From, that's awesome. From mid nineties. That's a wild story of Michael. Yeah. He's, uh, he's in our Rolodex of, um, of vendors and support for us because ultimately he can, he's an amazing artist and creator. Yeah. It's wild what he's doing with all those pots. Yeah. And just helping us get vehicles and, um Oh, sure. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Cool. I was next door to him. I, I was in the America building there for a while too. Got it. Okay. In downtown. In downtown, yeah. When, when local think tank was like first a thing. Got it. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, he's not down there anymore, but he's still, he's still going strong. He is, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I haven't run into him a couple years now. Yeah. So, uh, anyway, Michael, if you listen to this, uh, uh, he should be on the podcast. Let's hang. Yeah, let's talk sometime. Yeah. Yeah. I knew him. This is embarrassing, but I knew him for like maybe four years or something. And then like somehow we brushed against a faith conversation and he said he was Jew ish. And I was like, oh my God. So many things make so much more sense. Love you Michael. Uh, it's funny. Anyway, I digress. Yeah, no stereotypes around here. Yeah, it's all good. Sounds good. So, um, so we kinda learned kinda your special sauces, the kind of the comms finding your lane finding opportunities. Were you, how long before you made the commercial uh, jump? Yeah, so I think it was probably 2012, I think. Um, Larimer County. Wanted, uh, a general contractor here in town to do a project and the county recommended that they reach out to us to give'em a bid. Okay. And, um, because of some cer certifications and some things that we were doing back then. And, um, so that's kind of how we got into the commercial world is this guy called me up and he's like, Hey, the county wants me to give you a, you know, give you an opportunity at this bid. And I was like, oh, okay, well we got the project you were still in. Do whatever mode still in, do whatever mode. Yep, yep. So we did the project. It was a success and, um, still doing work with those guys and, uh, it's been a good, it's been a good partnership for us. Do you have like commercial types of clients that are more your fit than others? Um, is it kind of more. Basic or generic, or do you get fancy pants or? We did, we've done everything all the way from real small commercial rehabs on a single building all the way up to huge multimillion dollar projects. Uh, we just finished a big project out in City of Greeley on a restoration project. Mm-hmm. We're doing a u big project at UNC in front of the Blue Bear right now. Mm-hmm. Um, they. They're doing a huge turf conversion. They're removing all the grass in front of the blue bear. Oh wow. Um, it's the most prominent corner in town, so we're completely redoing that right now. That's a water minimization element. Yeah. And what do you replace all that grass with? Uh, it's gonna be native, it's gonna be sidewalks, it's gonna be retaining walls. Pergola. Hmm. Um Oh, interesting Bunch of structures. Yeah, it's actually pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. Cool project. So that's, yeah, that's cool. So that's seeing a lot more turf conversions. Um, a lot of restoration work kind of all over for us too. Is that a specialty area? Even the turf conversion? Kind of like we put the grass in, but we can also like change it up later. It is, it is. And um, I think it kind of came on on accident. Um, but getting turf converted successfully is not. As easy as it sounds, um, it takes a lot more management. You know, everyone knows with blue grass, you put the irrigation on it, you turn it off, you mow it, you turn it back on, and we kind of get into this cycle. And with, uh, turf conversions, it's, or with native grass, it's, it's quite the challenge'cause you got the left hand and the right hand. Don't really communicate. So you have code compliance that's telling you you need to mow the weeds and you've got the people that own the project that say, well, I can't mow the native grass yet. So there's a, this combination of how do we get this thing to full establishment, which ultimately has to get to establishment because someone's money's on the line. Right? So there's a bond, there's some sort of money put up and Yeah. Interesting. Until it's at a 70% establishment, they have erosion control issues. Yeah. So all that to kind of say is we, well, and the grass has to be kind of allowed to push through and crowd out the other weeds and stuff, but some of the weeds are stronger than the grass. Right. So how do you kind of, it's a, it's a juggling act of, yeah. Getting that establishment. So we've kind of become, um, real strong at it and we work with a lot of the municipalities. Okay. Um, other companies we can kind of help wherever help people. I'd say once a year we have a project where we're trying to help someone get their money back from the city, and so do we do. D does it get no water after that? If you go to back a, a native grass kind of style or just way less? Um, it's a, you keep the equipment there. It's a multi-year phase. So the first year there's not a lot of water savings in my mind. I not scientific here, but Right. You have to establish it, you have to get it going. Year two, you're gonna use water. Year three, you're gonna start to see a cut way back. Uh, you ultimately can get it to where it's only gonna water for probably five or six times, you know?'cause you don't need anything in the spring. Yep. You probably just need a couple waters in July, August kind of in there and then it, it does its own thing. Yeah. Yeah. So. Ultimately you, once it's established, you can ultimately cut off's. The grass grows in Peyton. Yeah, true. And in Ray and different places out there, right? Yep. Yep. That's how the, the real grass grows. Yeah. Yeah. The native grass. Interesting. Yeah. So we do a lot of turf conversions. It's more and more popular. We're starting to see it on the residential now as well. Mm-hmm. Um, just people saying, Hey, I don't use this area of my yard anymore, let's just convert it to native grass. Yeah. And, uh, so smart conversions I think make a lot of sense. And do you guys do like patios and concretes and like all the stuff? Or do you sub out some of that? We do all the hardscapes in house. We don't pour concrete ourself. Um, but we do a lot of pavers. Um, segmental, concrete pavers. Yep. I got into those, man. We were probably one of the first companies in northern Colorado. Um, we had a vendor. Those are like the things that. Fit with each other, kinda. You put him on a sand bed kind of thing. Yeah. It ultimately is the only option in northern Colorado, in my mind, in Colorado, uh, with our freeze thaw cycle and the salt and all these things, it's the only product where you don't have to, it's not cracking heaving, sping, it doesn't do any of that. My, uh, I've got some old city of Fort Collins sidewalks Yep. Is most of my back patio. So they're big, big old chunks of slate and stuff, and it's awesome. Yep. And. It ain't what she used to be. You know, it used to be I could lay my yoga mat on a few of those bricks and just like do that. Yeah. And now it's not, you know, things have changed a lot in the last 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. The concrete's not nearly as, uh, a durable of a product. And so we do a lot of pavers. And two, you know, our, when we talk with clients, we tell'em all the time. We live in a concrete jungle. You go to Target, everything's concrete. You go to Home Depot, everything's Target. You go to the hospital, everything's concrete. You go downtown. Yeah. Everything's concrete. So we wanna give people an oasis in their backyard. And when you kind of open up your back door, you want that kind of softer feel. Yeah. And pavers really give you that comfortable, soft, welcoming feel. And that kind of helps bring people down on the weekends. Again, making people's life better through landscaping. Well, it probably drains better too. Like is it for the city's perspective on the impervious versus pervious, is that there's a whole. System behind that. You know, the city's got their theories and they, we don't worry about that too much. Nah, we don't worry about it. You know, in some, some states, yeah, the water does percolate down through faster, but ultimately in Colorado we have clay, so it's really not gonna move that far. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, so when you, not to shift back, but um, when you first got started, like what were the first few hires for you? Just more people to help you with bigger projects that you sold. Yeah. Labor, um, foreman foreman's, always. No one Pats grass or did you have to grass? I did back. You did yourself a long time. Yeah, probably a couple months or a year, I don't know. Um, yeah, but it ultimately. It was, it was that area foreman, um, craftsmen. Right. You want, you want craftsmen. Yeah. And that's on the, on the construction side. You need guys that have that artist mentality and they see it as this is an art form, how the boulder goes in, how the trees and the shrubs compliment each other. The plants. Mm-hmm. The mulch, everything. It just has to compliment each other. And so when we do a design, it's diagrammatically. It gives people, our team and the clients a way to kind of see it in a 2D. But once that boulder shows up, once those plants show up, it can shift and adjust just a little bit. So did you do design a lot? We did, I was doing napkin you individually? Yeah, I was doing napkin sketches for a long time. Okay. Alright. Um, and then, you know, AutoCAD come, kind of came along and became more affordable and that's when we started hiring people with that skill set to kind of bring in house stuff. Gotcha, gotcha. Um, you, you're like, oh, look how much better that is in my napkin system. Way better. Yeah. Yeah. And so ultimately, you know, that that foreman level position is always key, right?'cause they gotta see it as the same, in the same light. Yeah. Um, what else? Like if you had some business, uh, most important learnings along the way, um, that you wanted to share with. People scaling their small landscaping firm. Is there anything that, uh, or otherwise, you know, their painting business, whatever else? Yeah. Uh, there's a, a lot of little things, right? Analysis by paralysis, right? You hear some of the guys that have been doing it a long time, you gotta step away, you know, you gotta get out of it sometimes.'cause you can, you can go literally crazy when you're so passionate about something. And, you know, if you're just constantly focused and focused and focused and focused and focused, it's, it's just not good for you. So finding something to kind of give you an outlet, whether it's fishing, going to the gym, hiking, something to kind of pull you outta there. Yeah. Well, and even like that and. Like a business coach, a peer advisory group, something like that. Sores headed next. Yeah. Peer advisory's key. Uh, people that know, you know, no one loves an asshole. So, you know, I typically, no one loves a what an asshole. You know, it's someone that asks for, oh, an asshole. An asshole. Someone that asks for, you know, for advice and then they don't take it kind of thing. So you gotta, you, you definitely want to have people, um, that you can, you can ask questions to and bounce ideas off of it. That's key. Yeah. That'll call you to account when you're not doing your stuff kinda thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I heard a quote a long time ago. Everyone knows what needs to done, needs to be done. The difference is just actually getting it done. Yeah. There's something to that for sure. Yeah. Um, and sometimes for some of us, like I'm somebody that's more accountable to others than to myself sometimes, you know, some people are really internally motivated. Yep. Me, I'd rather just not let down my friends. Totally. Uh, totally. And so that's kind of, you know, uh, for me that was part of the whole peer advisory element. Yeah. Other, uh, business gyms. Um, I like the asshole a lot. The way it's gonna take, it's gonna take way more, it's gonna take way more energy and way more time than you ever think it's going to, to build something. Everything, everything. Right. You want to get a new product off the ground. Way more time. Way more energy. Yeah. You want to get, you know, you want a new system for bidding a new way more time, way more energy. When did you put your fancy pen software in? Two, well, we, we tried another software, um, that was a major fail, so we messed around for two years, I think from 2015 to 2017. Okay. We messed around with another software. Could not get it to work. Try to make work. Wouldn't work. Yeah. The software was just antiquated. It was basically an Excel spreadsheet that was fancy. Sure. And it was, uh, also industry specific, but industry outdated by a while. Very outdated. Yeah. It would've been, I tell everyone it's, it would've been better to light$50,000 on fire on a table, I'm sure. You know?'cause that's what our, well, that's probably a conservative because think of all the time that Yeah. You guys spent besides all plus the dollars. Yeah. So that was a horrible, um, software. And then we went back to our second choice, uh, which is where we're at now. Oh, is that right? Yeah. They were our second choice. Only because you couldn't own the software subscription based. Oh, right. And. Fast forward eight years now. Everything's subscription based. Right? So really didn't matter. I probably should have started there. Yeah. So it goes, so goes. Yeah. You know, at least you can confess it. Yep, yep. We own the problem. So, um. This is kind of the point in the show where we usually like Zoom back to like little Zach. Okay. Uh, up somewhere a little town north of Peyton, Colorado. Yep. Grew up in Black forest. Yep. Black forest. Okay. Yeah. Parents had a little farm. Yeah. Um, so I was in four H from kindergarten all the way into college. Little farm being like an actual farm or a hobby farm. Hobby farm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we had, we raised dairy goats. Okay. Um, and we, I think we showed dairy goats in like 15 states. Oh wow. Yeah. Like so very passionate hobby farm. Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, from California. All money making. Did they? Have regular day jobs too, or are they just like sold goats? No, they had day jobs. Yeah. Okay. Mom stayed at home with raising the kids and, um, she, she had a little, she did some part-time stuff with the four H organization. Okay. And then my dad worked for Midas for 30 years. Oh yeah, you mentioned that. Yeah. And was he the passionate about dairy goats or both of them? That was like, my mom was more passionate about the goats. Okay. So you guys chased goats around for her kind of to have some fun interesting thing. Yeah. Yeah. But also got you in four H and got us in four H, gave us a work ethic, gave us some scholarships to get through college. Yeah. So it wasn't all bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how many of you. Uh, just me and my brother, he is five years older. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Veterinarian. Alright. Yeah. And, uh, describe like little Zach, uh, you got your, you're seven and he's 12 or something like that. Yeah. Like what's the lot of housework? Um, we never really had a lot of time for sports, so there was no travel sports in our, in our household. Was there a school up there? How big a school we went to? So Falcon was our school district. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, and my parents, when they moved out there, there was one stop sign and one stop light between my dad's office and the house. It's pretty lonely. 17 miles. It was a long ways out there. Now there's Walmarts and King Soup. My wife and I lived in Colorado Springs from oh four to oh seven. Okay. So that's why I speak with some familiarity for most listeners in Northern Colorado. Here they're like, where is this? So this is like basically like. What, like 25 miles north and east of Colorado Springs. Kind of 20 ish. Yep. Where my parents were, and I think it extended all the way up to 25. Sure. But yeah, it was there about 20. Sure. Frank Town is up just north, out of the trees, kind of there and whatnot. Yep. Yeah, it's a big area. It goes all the way from I 25. I mean, it's probably, it's really cool. It's geographically unique. It is very right. And culturally probably pretty unique. Can we, do you wanna talk about that a little bit? Was it all like, California's hippies escaping to the forest somewhere? Uh, you know, my parents' theory was everyone lives here for a different reason. Okay. My parents were from California. Yeah. So, um, everyone lives out here for a different reason. My parents had goats. The neighbor built race cars. Um, the next guy did trees. One guy rai raised dogs. So, I mean, it's pretty much, yeah. You name it out there. Wild, wild of sorts. It was pretty normal out in the black forest until that fire came through. Mm. And once that fire ripped through the houses they built out, there were. Ginormous. Mm. Because it was five acres, it was people's piece. Right. And so it kind of burned out a huge section of the f of the black forest, and they came back in and just built these monstrosities. Mm. So it's, um, so it had been kind of a, almost like a hippie village, and then all of a sudden became like a, where you can build your big ass house, you can,'cause they're five acre parcels to ac acre parcels and it's all trees so you don't see your neighbors. Right. I think Covid a exasperated that Right. Where it made it even more where people are like, I want my own space. Interesting. And so it, uh, so it ain't what you used to be? No. No. Yeah. So, I mean, it's a bummer. Yeah. It's all right. I mean, it's, it's part of the, part of the movement. It changed. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's nothing static in this world. Nope. No. So, um. So you're motivated, it sounds like, uh, kind of that outdoorsy, small town youth kind of geter. Done. Yeah. Did you have a, a lawn mowing business or anything before Pat? No. No. Pat, I, uh, yeah, I went to school at, uh, NJC, um, didn't know what I wanted to do. Really Didn't even sign up for school. My dad came home from work one day and I was like, Hey, I signed you up to go to school. I was like, oh, okay. This is interesting. So signs me up for NJC. Okay. Um, wasn't, uh, wasn't a straight A student, I'll put it that way. And, uh, went to NJC best thing that ever happened to me. Small school, uh, was able to meet up with some tutors and all the things became an ra. Hm. Cool. Kind of started some leadership there. Wow. And then, um, so you were kind of a. Slack ass in high school to, to not the smartest, not too critical. Yeah. Well, not the smartest, but it sounds like also didn't really apply or engage, maybe apply. Yeah. I lacked, lacked engagement and lacked, lacked, uh, application. Just'cause too many fun Other things going on, or what was your I just didn't see the value in it, I don't think. Okay. Yeah. Just didn't, it wasn't for me. Yeah. I don't know. So never really loved school. Yeah. Then, uh, went to NJC graduated, didn't know what I was gonna do, so then I transferred to CSU. Got a degree in business management there. Yeah. So it's good. And then, okay. Here, here we are. And here we are. Yeah. We came back full circle. Yeah. Um, I think it's a good time to take a short break and then we'll come back for scene two. Sweet. All right. Sweet. What did you do in peer advisory realm? Did you join it? Landscaping industry group, or have you been in other, not local think tank, peer advisory things? All the above. Right. Okay. Um, so we work with different consultants, um Okay. Who have kind of helped us. Are we back on? We could be back on the show. We can be if you want to. Okay. All right. It's up to you. Um, sure. Let's just be okay. Yeah.'cause you mentioned that in your kind of tips and then I didn't explore it with you. Yeah, yeah. So we've worked with a handful of different, uh, consultants over the years. Okay. Um, you know, it's, it's good to get outside's pers perspective ultimately local and national level because, you know, people see what's going on. Yeah. They see what's successful, they see what's not working. And so it's given, uh, we've worked with some different consultants that have helped us kind of give us that. Yeah. And they be kind of concentrations of knowledge too. Like I suspect maybe that trend of there aren't that many mids. Sizers Yes. Is true. More than just in Northern Colorado, I would say. Yeah. I would say it's probably across the country. I mean, only 1% of landscape companies get over a million dollars in revenue a year. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a small number. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Makes sense. So they, we worked with some consultants that have ultimately put us into, um, some groups. You know, calls, emails, kind of stuff like that, but nothing, nothing overly consistent. You know, we want to drill down when we're, we feel like when we're working on a problem, we wanna drill into it so deep and so heavy that we're just kind of in that problem for that. Right. Until we can kind of get it solved. Is that you and that consultant are parts of your leadership team as well? Yeah. Parts of the leadership team. The group team, yeah. Yeah. And you know, we love to do fly-ins. Our industry's real good about doing fly-ins, so they'll kind of do these opportunities where you can fly to different states and see different organizations and they walk you through and let you talk to everybody and they tell you, Hey, this is what we do. And you know, you can kind of do a little rob and repeat like, Hmm, that seems to work good or that doesn't work good. You know, kind of brings some ideas back to That's cool. And because you can really only deliver service. To of the people right around you, like they're not scared you're gonna come hundred percent break into the Salt Lake City market. No, a hundred percent. Yeah. That's really cool. That's kind of an abundance mentality as an industry in general. Yeah. We serve the people who are around. Yep. My blog this month is, uh, which I know I need to finish Ava, um, is, uh, so I was reflecting on, on JFK, the ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Yep. But then I, I, so I rephrased it, ask not what you can do for your country, ask what you can do for your community. Yes. Because we all get kind of too big focused sometimes, and we just, just. Work on what's right in front of us. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I think, you know, when you have a organization or you're part of an organization, you gotta find something else to kind of keep you occupied too. Right. Whether it's working out, whether it's doing, again, some of these things where you not swimming in that the whole time. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And that's where the community comes in, and ultimately you gotta get to a level where you can, you can make that happen. Are you a workout guy? Is that one of your things? Yeah, I got some pretty good pipes there. I try to hit the gym. I joined a gym about a month ago. Okay. You know, really for the first time since I was like 22, I've been pushing weights, so. Okay, nice. It's the, I don't build strength as fast as I did when I was 22. Oh, no, no. It, it does not, nothing, nothing goes on or comes off nearly as fast as it did when you were young. Noticing, I'm noticing. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, no, I, the gym keeps me, uh, keeps me sane, that's for sure. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Um. Well, we typically transitioned to the faith, family politics, like the can't talk about subjects here. Sure. Um, do you have a preference of where we start there? Nope. Um, let's talk about your family first. Yeah. Uh, you're wearing a ring, but we haven't met your, your wife. Yep. In this conversation so far. My, uh oh, but we did a little bit because she moved back up to Fort Collins or something. Yeah. Or you came back up to chase her. Yeah. Yeah. She wanted to go to CSU and, uh, so we've been married. 17 years now. Okay. Um, so yeah, she's been there kind of from the beginning. Where did you find her at? Where were you at? Four H. Oh really? Yeah. Okay. She's, uh, bring it back to four H Uhhuh, bring it back to four H again. So she was in the same four H Club as us, and she's a little bit younger than I am. And her parents were also amazing dairy goat razors. Uh, quite that close, not quite on the level where my family was on my, my mom took it to another level. They were amateur during go people, but they, they want, they were part of the organization, so, yeah. Um, yep. 17 years, two boys. Okay. Uh, Holden is 15 and Bo is 12. Two boys. Do you often try to do a one word description of the individual children? Okay. Would you like to attempt that with Holden and Bo? Bo Holden is extremely smart. Uh, we can put a dash in there. Yeah, it's fine. It's dash. And then Bo is courageous. He's a wild guy. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Who, uh, who, who takes after who more? Um, Holden six four already wear a size 14 shoe. Oh, dang. 15. Yep. So he's a big guy. Um, and then Bo probably takes after his mom a little bit smaller, more petite. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And what's your, what's your wife's name? Robin. Hi, Robin. Yeah. You'll probably listen to this. She will for sure. I suspect. Yeah. Um, what, uh, like what was the connection point? Just be beyond like she was the cutest girl at four H. Uh, were the things that either drew you to her or vice versa in that early, you know, she's early time, she's got a strong personality. Okay. And, you know, that's, that was key for me back then. Um, as she was strong, she could hold her own. It's key for me now. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, she doesn't need me to kind of hold her up and Yeah. Make decisions for her. I've said before, I don't really want a woman that needs me. I want a woman that wants me correct. You know, if she could tell me to f off once in a while, that's even better probably. Yep. She, that's her. Um, but use nicer language than that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and how about, uh, for her? What was her draw to you? Just the, um, different, I was different, uh, different guy that she was normally used to. Okay. Um, you know, she ultimately was with, uh, probably much, uh. Better athletes and, uh, different, different types of guys. So, yeah. Um, I think I was different. Had a little bit more drive than most for her and, um, you know, she's probably, probably liked that. But you didn't really have much going yet. I mean, no, I had nothing. Pickup truck and four oh dollars worth of pads. Yeah. My future assets. That's all she was, that's why she was in it, I think. Well, it's a special intuition, right? Like that's a, it's an interesting thing culturally, uh, now that people are coupling so much later. Yep. Right? Like when, when girls married, boys when they were 18 or 20 or 21, they had to kind of be future prognosticators, right? They're trying to play the market here a little bit. Yeah. Who's got not just kindness and sensitivity, but also strength and perseverance and the ability to go get her. Yeah, and I was, I mean, I was young when we started dating. I was 23, I was outta college and, uh, I mean, I didn't know. I didn't know what I was doing at all in life. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. It's almost like it's taken power out of women's hands in some ways to try to marry at 30, because now they already know who's a loser, who's not a loser as far as like, you know, pretty much by 30. Yeah. The cards are on. You're headed one direction or another. Your cards are on the table a little bit. You know, they can kind of stack rank then and they still don't now they just choose old guys. Yeah, right. The 30-year-old girls, like are with 40-year-old guys in their second marriage, and all the 30-year-old guys are all single. Yep. Like. Doing porn or something. It happens, I don't know, happens, I don't know. It's unfortunately a cultural trend. Yeah. Yeah. I digress. Yeah, it's all good. I'm a, I'm a student of uh, x.com and too many, uh, cultural things probably. Yeah. What was the, uh, the family environment for you like? Um. Like, do you have grandparents around? They were back in California and stuff. Your wife? Things like that. Half of the grandparents were in California. Half of the grandparents were Australia. Oh wow. My mom's Australian. Oh wow. Yeah. Okay. So that was, didn't see them very, very often either side. Really? Yeah. Um, mom and dad moved out there when I was five, so my dad was, and they didn't have siblings necessarily nearby or things like that. My mom's brother was in Australia. My dad's sisters were in California still. Interesting. So, yeah. So they were a little island kind of. And you guys were too. And so a little bit of a self-sufficient island. That's part of your character development probably. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Have you been to Australia? Yep, couple times. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Got to see family actually after I graduated college, I went over there for a month. Oh cool. Just kind of traveled around. Yeah, it was good. What part of the country? Um, you know, most of the population's congregated, right? Because of way. Yeah. All the little, few clusters here and there between the desert chunks. Yeah. But basically from Brisbane all the way down, um, to. Oh, there's one another. Sydney? No, not on the other side. You got, you got through Sydney? Yeah, there's kind of three big cities on one side. So one of my former facilitator moved there. Oh, nice. To that realm somewhere. I think Brisbane even actually. Okay, nice. So I've studied the Australia map not too long ago. Yeah. Reorienting myself. You better go over there. Yeah, I would love to actually, my, so my, my grandfather growing up, he was a bachelor for many years, and then married my grandmother on his second marriage or her second marriage. Um, but he, at like the age of 19, in 1922 or something, went to Australia for a year. Whoa. And just moved there. Whoa. Yeah. And I don't know, you know, he did some stuff and then he came home and like, he like worked on a ranch, you know, did this and that. Um, that's, wow, that's a long, that, that's a different time. Yeah. Well, and for a, I'm a North Dakota kid, you know? Right. And so nobody did stuff like that there. You know, people just were born there and raised there. Then they'd die there kind of mostly, yeah. Um, so anyway. Yep. Let's say that sometime that's mom, dad, that's what I, they did and uh, my wife's family's similar. Uh, they were from Texas. Okay. My father-in-law was an electrician and uh, he moved, they moved up to Colorado'cause he just enjoyed the mountains. Yeah. Okay. So, so you got that family support now kind of on the, in-law side. Yep. Yep. He passed away in 2011, but my mother-in-law's in Fort Collins now. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when you think about family, like were there certain outside of the kinda work ethic and the passion pursuits of your mom and stuff, was there things that your family really maybe transmitted, like your parents to your next generation, to you and your wife? Yeah, I mean, both of my parents worked hard. Um, so I think it was hard work. My dad was always calm, uh, methodical and uh, you know, my mom was a go-getter. Uh, raising the boys and just kind of keeping us in line. And, um, she was kind of the fire, he was the stabilization in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. So it's kind of kept, you know, I think it, it probably has helped along the way in business. Right. One, the one side's all foot on the gas and the other side's kind of cool, calm and collected, so, yeah. Yeah. Is your, is your wife involved with your business? She is now. Okay. Um, yeah. So she stayed at home with the kids for 10 years, I think. Okay. And then kind of once the kids were, um, growing and established, we brought her back in to do some stuff. Let's talk about like, how do you, like, did, did you know what you wanted her to do or did you let that kind of navigate a little bit? Like how do you reintroduce, uh, in that way? Um, she's on the accounting side now. Okay. And, um, it was, it was out of need at the time. Okay. And, uh, you know, so in that kind of growing through phase Yeah. Like, Hey, I need a super good. Very cheap accounting person. Reliable. Reliable uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. So she jumped back in just a couple years ago, I think. Okay. And, um, oh, so you had kind of grown through that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So she helped us out a ton. Um, she's been great. She kind of just keeps everything in order in line. And do you have need really of a, like a controller level? Person or is that her or do you not really need it necessarily? We have, we use a CFO for hire. Okay. Kind like, like a fractional CFO. Yeah. A fractional CFO. Yep. To kind of jump in and just make sure all the t's are crossed, all the reconci settlements are done, all the things are tight, there's no, no, no. Employees are stealing where they're supposed to be Dropbox and whatever. Yeah. Yep. And just watching for those weird things. So we kind of have a, a fractional CFO kind of jump in and kind of help out where we need it. Help you with like designing budgets and stuff like that too. Yep. A hundred percent. Yeah. Cool. Yep. Yeah, that's a nice, like there's no reason for a company your size to have a$175,000 a year CFO. No. Um, no. But it's also risky to not have anybody that's got a higher level of experience. A hundred percent. Yeah. And so that was where, and our, this fractional CFO has been real strong, helpful for us. You know,'cause they just turn over stones and again, you know, she works with other landscape contractors. I. Throughout a couple states. And so she kind of can say, Hey, we're seeing this over here. We're seeing this over here. Or you know, are you sure you're not having some theft or what's going on? Right. Some materials theft, different things like that. Yep. Yeah. Yep. I mean, you're not dealing with copper wires, but you're dealing with a lot of materials that are easily sold to Joe with a pickup. Yep. Yep. Happens. That makes sense. Um, politics or faith? Faith. Yeah. Uh, family of Christ. And, um, you know, we're going back to your parents, not my parents a ton. Okay. I went to a Baptist high school. Okay. Um, so I think I kind of started my journey on my own. And, uh, like they didn't choose the high school for you or like, was that the high school that was there or whatever? No, they didn't, my parents didn't love the high school Falcon High School. Okay. And so they sought out other options for my brother and I. Okay. Um, and there was a Catholic high school and a Baptist high school, and I. Baptist one was we him with the Baptist. Okay, yeah. Yeah. So my brother went to District 20, so they had to truck him in, and then some of the district rules changed and, um, so they planted me in a, at a Baptist high school. And so that's kinda where my journey started. They, they went to church some, um, but with the farm it was just super hard, super tough on the weekends, so, so they weren't anti faithful, they just weren't really very engaged, if you will. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And then, uh, for your wife as well? Same, same perspective or different? I would say same perspective for her. Her parents weren't, you know, against faith, but, you know, found, found other things. Uh, yeah, keeping her busy, so, uh, keeping them busy, but yeah. Then you guys keep an active, like attendance and stuff here at one of the, the local organizations? Not as much as you always want to. Yeah. Yep. You got one? Yep, we got one. So I was, uh, we go to the Crossing church, my wife and I. Okay. Uh, down at Shields and, and, uh, I sent one of, one of our lay pastors is a, is a SY guy, like CD, C. Virus scientists that, he's one of my favorite guys. I should have him on here sometime, but I sent him a little short video that was like all, like 14 of the major denominations of Christians explained Okay. In like 14 minutes. Wow. And, uh, determined we were, our church was kind of a. Um, pres Baptist, like Presbyterian hybrid with Baptist. Huh? A little bit of Reform Baptist kind of element. Okay. We're, we don't really hang any of those flags. Yes. But it's in that realm. Okay. If you will. Yeah. Yeah. So we, we uh, we attend church. Yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Business is tough, you know? Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Landscaping, so the kids are familiar and stuff too. Yep. Yep. Our kids actually go to a Christian school. Okay. Yeah. So, um, resurrection or They do, yeah. Okay. Yep. Boys go to resurrection. You probably know how old is the older one? 15 freshman. Okay. So Simon Johnson, do you know Simon Johnson? Yes. Uh, Greg Johnson is my brother-in-law and uh, Isaac just won Isaiah. Isaiah just won the state wrestling championship. Yeah. Yes. Strong. Strong kids. Oh boy. Oldest. It's been wild to see him. Our oldest, our oldest really looks up to him. Is that right? Yeah. Good kid. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's been my favorite. Uh, he's a good kid. Yeah. So me and Isaiah have been kind of pals for a lot of years now, actually. Good to see that he got a wrestling scholarship. Yeah. Right before he won the state. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He could have maybe got a better scholarship if he'd have waited a little bit. I dunno. I waited a couple weeks. He would've got something different, but yeah, no, so I've been, uh, you know, Jill and I go down for the fundraiser, for the, the Res Gala, gala and things like that every year. It's pretty, pretty neat how they run that operation, you know, and really involve a lot of local business people and supporting the sports teams and things like that. So, yeah. Good for them. We like it. We love it. Our kids love it. Um, I've told the res church is more of a. Not a dumpster fire, but not quite as well operated as the, the school perhaps. Correct. Correct. Yes. Anyway, we don't need to talk about that. Yeah.'cause your face is already a little bit red. Yeah. Uh, politics. Politics. Yeah. Yeah. We're in, uh, we're we what day 37 or something like that of the, of the Trump presidency. Lot of changes. Yeah. A lot, lot of changes. Are you squeamish yet on the doge and this and that, or? Nope. Nope. Needs to happen. Yeah. You know, um, I think it's just, you know, everyone has their opinion, right? And we, we gotta turn over all stones and I think if, if businesses are required to show a profit and we are judged on our productivity on a daily basis, I, I don't think that's too much to ask. Um, you know, I think that there's some different layers and some different things that probably. We just don't mess with secret service stuff, some of that stuff. But man, at the end of the day, well maybe, but we might wanna mess with Secret Service a little bit. Like they didn't have a big successful year last year. I mean, they true lucked into not letting the president die Joe candidate, uh, get assassinated twice. Yes. Yeah. Uh, mess. It's a mess. I'm glad the election is behind us. Yeah. Um, the people spoke, right. And so I think at this point we, well, and it's interesting here in Northern Colorado where this people spoke like 67% Harris. Yeah. Right? And so, and I've never been a Trump guy necessarily, but I'm pretty like, I'm been a libertarian guy. We're like, yes, yes. You know, and so I think most of us are, yeah. Business people is more characteristically especially. Yep. But like HP has probably laid off more people in northern Colorado than the federal government will over the next 12 months. Huh. Interesting. You know, if you think about it, yeah. They've had downsizings over the years and stuff. Oh yeah, totally. You know, it happens. But you've never heard of a no downsizing at any level of government? No, no. You know, the, the city economic development office has grown from five to 12 employees over the last six years, and to me, it's not discernible what their impacts have been. Well, and we, but I'm gonna have'em on sometime soon. Actually, I have a, if you guys are listening, you know that I'm not criticizing yet. I have a. Direct tie to the government and using this Visa program. So I do a ton of lobbying'cause of the importance of it. And so, so you're freaked out a little bit by the immigration kind of conversation. I mean, I see that the, the accountability issue, it's a little bit like the IRS right? You have to turn in paperwork, but you don't know which paperwork, what time to turn in the paperwork. How to turn in the paperwork, because there's just, there's no, but you know, there's, you're in trouble if you don't turn in the paperwork in at the right time. A hundred percent. So in 2024, we got stuck in the wheel of death. Our paperwork just sat there and sat there and sat there and sat there until all the visas were gone. Oh, no shit. Yeah. So then we have no visas and then now what? And then it was, oh, we have more questions for you. And it's like, whoa. What happened to our application that's been sitting there for 45 days? Wow. And so we, it just kind of, we have a firsthand connection when we see that lack of clarity. And so when I see that we're trying to clean these things up and make some more transparency and Yeah. Accountability and all these things, it, it seems okay. It's like going to the dmv, right? I mean, you, you pay for productivity at the dmv and you'd have as many people in the building. Yeah. So, you know, I, I, I, the office, uh, like for whatever reason, old office clips really is, so, Bob, what do you do here? Yes. And I just wonder, you know, how much, uh, we're gonna flip over could change a lot. And the real ultimately, you know, there's gonna have to be big changes to entitlement stuff too. Yep. You know, and like if make America healthy and can actually make Medicare and Medicaid cost less come down over, over the next 10 years. Yeah. You know, because we're not Yep. Doing all these dumb things to ourselves anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We gotta, we gotta tighten up some of the spending, right. I mean, I think that's where a lot of us see it is like, Hey, okay, we can't keep taking this bus over this cliff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the T is a big number. I'm writing my blog right now and it's, it's, uh, I think I mentioned already, it's what you could do your community, but like, well, Elon just wants to send people to Mars and if the US goes bankrupt. Nobody's gonna have enough discretionary income to do a Mars program. And then here we are. Yep. So he is like, I guess I could just go in there and do some stuff. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, it's been a pretty interesting thing. It has been wild. But I went to a, uh, H two B symposium in Vegas a couple weeks ago. H two B, uh, that's the Visa program we use. Okay. And, um, in the first five minutes, the guy that was running it stood up and said, there's no more executive orders than normal. There's nothing crazy that he's doing. All of these things are right in line with what we expected. Hmm. And so I was much calmer after that.'cause I'm like, man, you know, this seems to be like a lot of moving parts already, but they said it's just what he's focusing on, how he's focusing on it. And uh, it's just playing out. Well, and from what I hear in your perspective, like we need migrant labor forces to really do effective work. Or at least it's beneficial to them and us. A hundred percent. It's a, it's a requirement of our country. Yeah. And like the whole, like, we have a few million people here, of which we have no idea who they are is hard. It is. And you know, it's, there's not gonna be, I don't think Trump's gonna. Have mass deportation. I mean, he understands that the organ, the, the country runs with immigrant workers. And so I just don't see that happening. But who doesn't want the bad apples outta here? Right. Right. And the theft, I mean the, the amount of stuff we've had stolen in the last five years is so outta control. Really? Oh, skid steers, mini skids, gasoline. They cut our fence. They steal our copper wire. Oh, damn. They break into our trucks. They steal trucks. They on and on and on and on and on. Oh, damn. Weekly, I would say for a while there. Wow. And so. His new law says if you've been picked up for theft Right. You're detained now. Right. So hopefully that kind of cleans up some of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think ultimately we all, you know, we, we want it to be a little bit cleaner. Needs to be a, a nation of laws ultimately. Yeah. So, so you're optimistic at least a little bit right now and uh Yep. See what happens. I'd love to see our visa program get fixed. Um Okay. We got 365 days for that to possibly happen, but then if that doesn't happen, we'll be faced with some Oh, really? Obstacles. Oh, interesting. Yeah.'cause once you hit year two right, they say, ah, less gets done.'cause now you're looking at midterms. Sure. Then year three usually things switch so Well, and that's the interesting thing about like, I'm kind of a utilitarian of sorts kind of as well, and it's like a lot of people want to come to America and a lot of'em are discouraged from this like 10 year process for actually becoming a citizen stuff. Yep. Like, we should have a super license, you know, if you got 50 grand. Money solves most problems and you're smart and capable of learning and doing the citizenship test and stuff. Yeah. And if you don't have 50 grand, that's fine. Yeah. Go through the regular process, it's still 10 grand. Yeah. You know, I don't disagree with that. And, and let's do a vetting process of who would add the most value. Yeah. You know, when, when I'm looking for members of local think tank, I'm like, who brings value and who's a dumpster fire that I don't want part of this organization, you know? Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's uh. It's a need. Yeah. It's a need. So I'm glad to see, I mean, if you've been to DC before, you see the number of buildings and the number of people out there, it's just staggering. It's wild. Yeah. Yeah. And some of'em are just sitting empty. Right. Or, or Oh yeah. Limited people because they've done remote and work from home, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of, I'm glad to see'em clean it up. Um, don't think it's, you know, I don't think it's gonna be as bad in the end as we, as everyone's made it out to be. That's good. Yeah. I hope that's true. Yeah. Uh, what's the, the podcast I listened to recently, uh, Doug Wilson is, and he said, uh, the squealing that you hear is, uh, what happens when somebody gets between the hog and the trough. Yeah. So what's happening? Anyway, I digress. Yeah. Yeah. He's, uh, well, good little political segment there, but you're kind of from that libertine bent, let people do what they want. A hundred percent. Yeah. Don't, don't go into debt too much. Don't fight wars. Yep. Yep. Tell me, how do we fix Ukraine? I. Uh, just like they're saying kind of, well, uh, the, the most recent one is, um, they need to pay us back. Right. So that's a, that's a good start. We noticed you got a ton of cobalt. We noticed that you have 15 of the 25 most precious rare earth metals. Metals. We'll go ahead and take half of those and that'll secure our problems. Yeah, it's an interesting, um, yeah. I just, I mean, ultimately there, they're, they just have to stop killing each other and we can't have World War iii, so a hundred percent let's, hundred percent. Let's just do that. How do we Yeah, I agree. And, you know, I don't think anyone's against helping'em, but I think the fact that a large percentage of the money or some of the money is unaccounted for Yeah. I think is really part of the issue now. Well, I mean, that's all of our government too, so I can't really blame them too much. Yeah. Um, would you like to do the dreaded, uh, awkward question ping's call quick. Let ping call. Okay. So three balls and then I'll read the questions that are associated with those numbers. All right. First up, number four. Number four. And we'll choose the order. What would you estimate your burp to Fart ratio is? Oh, okay. Okay. That's interesting. One. Uh, burp. More burps and farts. I eat pretty well, so, okay. Okay. Not a lot of di digestive parts. So burps are more an expression of pleasure? Yeah. After a soda water or something. Good. Yeah. That kind of thing. Uh, the farts aren't too frequent. Yeah. Nah. No. Okay. So maybe like one to three or something? That sounds about right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All alright. Sounds good. 23. 23. That was my question, by the way. Okay. Okay. That was pretty funny. You got all the silly ones. Any stupid human tricks you're ready to, uh, willing to share or show? Oh, I don't have many tricks. Uh, nothing like from the old timey. No. Nothing crazy. I have now just. Pretty normal. I don't have anything wrong. Can you? Can't cross your eye. I mean, you can do that, but nothing like crazy. Nothing. I don't have anything. Talents. I have one. I'm gonna see if I can show it on, on live. I have to take my ear things off. Okay. But this is my stupid human trick I've got. So you can do this, you can try it if you want. Okay. You're kind of, you're both a little bit like me with bigger muscles. So you're gonna have to take your, take your headphone off and then, uh, put your arms here and like, there you go. Mm-hmm. Your arms are way too big and you go like this, and then you tuck Oh. Oh. Your head through there. Oh, yep. No, I don't have You're not gonna make it. You can't do that way. I do. No. Yeah, you're way too tough for that one. Now. That's not happening. That's my one. As far as I know, that's my only. Um, third, no crazy tricks. Sorry. Um, what number did I tell you? 23. Uh, that was the student human trick. Yep. 24. 24. I have 23 and 24. Hmm. 24 is the final one. Okay. And I think, um, we'll make this one the prize one. Okay. Oh, is that what this is for? Is a prize for the lucky winner. Yeah, that's you. You definitely get the prize. Yeah, but I, well, but somebody should win it. Well, we'll, we'll have a prize for the winner. Okay. Um, what is the most durable business relationship you've had? Durable. Durable, like either a person or another business or. Something that's been around for, just about since the start. Ooh, I got, uh, two, one, um, we've been working with a consultant since 2007. Um, he's now in his seventies. You wanna shut him out? Uh, his name's Jim Houston. Um, actually a Colorado guy. Yeah. Um, good guy, uh, is really talked me off of the ledge a lot, so kudos to Jim. Good job, Jim. Uh, second one is, um, probably my good buddy Jason. I talk to him every single week, uh, for 30 minutes on Wednesday. Okay. And, um, he's definitely talked me off the ledge. Like another, a business coach, a business leader. He just, uh, friend from high school, uh, met him here in Fort Collins. He actually works for Dave Ramsey. Oh, wow, okay. The organization. Okay. Um, and, uh. He just talks to me. He's smart business guy and um, he really smart dude. Helps me out a lot. So yeah. Helps keep you on track in that goal. Helps keep me on track. And you won your business and your life on the kinda Ramsey plan Ish. Ish. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, for a lot of years we didn't carry much debt in the organization, right? Yeah. We are always just fear of oh 7, 0 8 again. Right, right, right. No debt. No debt. No debt. Okay. Now, now to the size we are, you know, we carry some debt, strategic debt, the right debt, new trucks, debt that pays for itself. Yeah. Yeah. We ultimately, you know, we, we do these big exercise to figure out where we should be kind of pointing the ship, but ultimately, yeah, we're still debt conscious. Yeah, fair enough. In how we run things. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, if you, if your son, either of your sons, um, wanted to start a business, like what would be some of the, the both or anybody, you know, any 16, 18, 20, 22, 20 4-year-old person out there, that's. You know, maybe got a job, but Yep. Could I start something? Yep. What advice do I have for'em? Yeah, yeah. Um, or would you tell'em not to? No, no. I, I tell'em, it's, uh, it's not for everybody. Yeah. Um, you know, you, it's something you don't stop thinking about. Right. I mean, it's a, it's a all on all the time. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of how it operates, so, you know, it, uh, I wouldn't steer'em against it, but you definitely ask a lot of questions. Know what you're getting into first. Yeah. What's your why, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, if people are like, oh, I wanna make all this money, uh, you're not in the right spot. Yeah. Oh, I wanna do all this. Uh, okay. Maybe, right. You gotta have a pretty strong, you know, purpose. Um, and understand that. And so, you know, just tell, tell people, talk'em through it. Help'em, you know, and there's a lot of guys, there's a lot of guys in this community that I talk to that are small landscapers, medium sized landscapers. Yeah. Denver guys, you know, I try to offer as much help as I can. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, when, when possible. Well, and they can copy all of what you've done that they want to. Probably, and it won't necessarily work the same for them, you know? Right. Yeah. It can help'em through some of those, uh, mistakes We made free advice. I would say that part of the, the peer advisory thing with Loco is you can learn from other people's mistakes once in a while instead of just your own a hundred percent. Um, you know, hundred percent shorten that learning gap just a little bit. Yeah. The Loco experience is our final segment. Yep. It's, uh, the craziest story that you're willing to share. Crazy experience. Um, oh man. Could be a moment. Could be a week, a year. I don't know. We've had some wild ones. Um, 2017 almost broke us. Um, took us all the way to the bottom. We didn't get our H two B Visa workers. It allowed us to a hundred percent pivot. Um, that helped. What do you mean? Like, you almost broke it because of not getting your workers in or something? Yeah, we were just too relying on'em. Okay. We were just, it was so normalized for us and we just, we were a young group, we were young guys, um, and it kind of almost, you know, broke us, so they were like 70 something percent of your. Yeah, we were. Oh,'cause Trump, no. Took things down at the time or it was nothing political that time. They just ran out of v It was a total, total crapshoot in 2017. Why? We didn't get'em, we were one of the first ones that didn't get'em ever.'cause it used to be such an easy program to be in. Oh, okay.'cause they had the returning worker exemption. So yeah, 2017 almost, um, took us down. And then, uh, did you scramble and hire other workers locally instead? We did, yeah. Okay. Yep. Scramble, hire locals. Um, so we got through it. We learned, we grew. Best thing that ever happened to us on the other side of it. Right, right, right. Um, so secondary item is, um, my wife asked me before I came down here, what are you gonna say? And I was like, ah, I'm not sure. She's like, well. Most people wouldn't be su surprised. But I'm six four weigh 230 pounds in the last year. My brother and I did rim to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon, so Oh wow. Ran 46 miles across, uh Oh dang. The Grand Canyon and back. So I was just telling somebody about one of our chapter members today, uh, who's a former fireman, um, built like a linebacker kind of your size. Yeah. Yeah. And he ran a marathon last year. Okay. And I'm like, and he is. You know, the farthest thing from built like a Gazelle. So I appreciated his determination. And yours. Yeah, because that's uh, how long, how long of a that took us, uh, oh geez. 17 hours. That's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, it's 46 miles. Do you run a lot still? Um, or you trained up a long time for that? I did. Last year. I ran a marathon last year I was Okay. Yeah. When a marathon is part of your training. Yeah, I was running a half marathon just randomly on like Thursday mornings before work. I'd get up at two 30 in the morning and go run a half marathon and then go to work. Your knees are all good and stuff. I'm still holding on. Yeah. So far so good. So far so good. Long term, probably not. So yeah. I think this year we got our sites set on a 50 mile in, um, uh, November. Okay. So, um, one of my members is the Run Windsor organizer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, Mandy, you might know of her. Okay. Yep. Um, but they've got a weld, your medal. Is there a 24 hour race coming up here? I saw that. I might be at your style. I don't know. It's, uh, maybe I almost signed up for it, if I'm being honest. Really? Yeah. Well, there's still time. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Uh, may is, may is not the best time to be running marathons and running a landscape business. Well, it's not a marathon. It's like, isn't it like you just gotta run like a mile? Or five miles every hour. I think it's two miles. Five per hour. Two miles. Yeah. It's a two mile loop I think is what I read. Yeah. So you run 20 minutes, you sleep for 20, you wake back up, you run good for 24 hours or something. That's a lot of running. It's more about the mental I. Yeah. Probably because it's only if it's two miles each time. That's only 48 miles. Yeah. In 24 hours. Shit, that's Yeah. It's flat. Too easy. Yeah, it's flat. It's out and eat. Exactly. The stars iss gonna be beautiful. Yeah. There you go. All right. I'll, I'll tell Mandy you're signing up. Maybe we can get Zach. George Landscaping is one of her sponsors. There you go. You'd like it. There you go. Um, do you wanna tell people how to find, uh, you, if they have deed of what you do? Yep. Zach george landscaping.com. Spelled with ZAK. Um, oh, is that Zach Zacchaeus or Zacharias or something? Or why is it Zack with a K? There's not a K in my legal name, believe it or not. Oh. But that's how I've spelled it my whole life. All right. So, alright. Um, zach george landscaping.com. Zg Landscaping on Instagram and, uh, Mr. Zg for my personal Instagram, so. Okay. Alright on Brent. That's it. That's it. Hey, any questions for me before we disband this, uh, merry conversation? No, had a great time. Thanks. All right, well thanks for being here. Yeah, cheers.