EXPERIENCE 212 | Jack & Ginger Graham - Owners of Ginger and Baker, Veteran CEO’s Building Northern Colorado Community - Together

Ginger Graham returns to The LoCo Experience studio, and this time brings her hunky husband, Jack!  

Jack Graham came to Fort Collins to play quarterback for CSU, and was drafted into the NFL for the Miami Dolphins.  In his post-football career, Jack quickly became an innovative disrupter in the reinsurance industry, and he founded International Catastrophe Insurance Managers, distributing risks from natural disasters such as hurricanes and earthquakes - and was recognized as the Earnst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2003.  He returned to Fort Collins and led the charge to build a new football stadium, and went on to the role of Athletic Director at CSU.

Ginger Graham is a country gal from Arkansas, who earned a Harvard MBA and went on to become CEO of several companies, including a Fortune 500 and a Nasdaq 100 firm - and she makes the best pies west of the Mississippi!  And she’s on my short list of favorite people.  

Since Ginger had shared previously (Episode 73), we focus in on Jack’s journey in this one, including his journey in football and reinsurance - and the challenges around the stadium project and tour of duty with CSU Athletics.  The Grahams share the short story of their romance and their why in Ginger and Baker, and Ginger settles my fears about Ozempic and similar weight-loss drugs - which I didn’t recall she’d been involved in developing!  And - we talk about all the great things going on in Northern Colorado now - and the even better times ahead! 

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Ginger Graham returns to the Loco Experience Studio this week, and this time brings her hunky husband, Jack. Jack Graham came to Fort Collins to play quarterback for CSU and was drafted into the NFL for the Miami Dolphins. In his post football career, Jack quickly became an innovative disruptor in the reinsurance industry, and he founded International Catastrophic Insurance Managers, distributing risk from natural disasters such as hurricanes and earthquakes. And he was recognized as the Ernst Young Entrepreneur of the Year in 2003. He returned to Fort Collins and led the charge to build a new football stadium, and he went on to the role of Athletic Director at CSU. Ginger Graham is a country gal from Arkansas, who earned a Harvard MBA and went on to become CEO of several companies, including a Fortune 500 and a NASDAQ 100 firm. And she makes the best pies west of the Mississippi. And she's on my short list of favorite people. Since Ginger has shared previously, we've focused in on Jack's journey in this one, including his journey in football and reinsurance, and the challenges around the stadium project and tour of duty with CSU Athletics. The Grams share the short story of their romance and their why in building Ginger and Baker, and Ginger settles my fears about Ozempic and similar weight loss drugs, which I didn't recall she had been involved in developing. And we talk about all the great things going on in Northern Colorado now, and the even better times ahead. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the Low Cove Experience podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy, and through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm here today with Jack and Ginger Graham, and Jack is a former athletic director for CSU. He is a business executive with a great history, as well as a former star quarterback at CSU. And Ginger is one of my favorite people, as well as the owner operator of Loco Experience. The Ginger and Baker multiplex here in Fort Collins. So, uh, I guess first, uh, Ginger, thanks for coming back around and thanks for, for bringing Jack. Absolutely. I like hanging out with him. Did you get voluntold for this? You know, I'm an easy target. I was happy to come and I'm glad to be here. That's awesome. Thanks. Good to be with you. Um, Mr. Ginger Graham was the alternative suggestion I heard there, so. No, just Mr. Jack, you know. Sorry, Mr. Ginger, yeah. Yeah. Can we start with, uh, let's talk about the romance. Like, when did you guys first meet and how long before the first date? We met on our first date. Oh, you did? Yeah, blind date. You were set up? Oh, blind date. Yeah, blind date. Okay. Yeah, I had a business partner that Ginger went to business school with. Okay. And, um. He was sick and tired of me being miserable, and he said, I've met a woman who's just as miserable as you are, and I think you ought to meet her. And, um, he described her to me, and I said, you know, sure, you know, but I figured it would never go any further than that, but he gave me her phone number, and so I called him, and I mean, you should tell the story, you always tell it better than I do. Well, he called, I was Perturbed because these two friends from business school, uh, Wendy and Tom gave Jack my phone number without my permission, which was not okay with me. But back then there was an answering machine and the one message was from Wendy. Hi, I've met him. His name is Jack Graham because I had been with a group of girlfriends and they were harassing me about not dating and I said, Well, every man I know either works for me or is one of my customers. And so I can't date and they decided they were going to fix it for me. And so then she called and said, I have found him. His name is Jack Graham. And the next message on my answer machine was his voice. And I thought, Oh, sounds pretty interesting. So that's yeah. We started trading voicemails, trying to connect, eventually did, we had a blind date, and we've never really been apart since then. Is that right? No other dates? No. You, you just, you discontinued your Match. com accounts from there? You're, you're giving us credit for dating at a younger time, Kurt. Well how, Ginger, you had been never married before? Never married. Is that true? How old were you? I was 40. Wow. Um. I was too busy. Right. And it's really hard. Well you were doing a lot of stuff. We talked about a lot of that stuff. It's really hard to find a great guy. Yeah. And so I waited until I did. That's uh, I've shared that. Notion before is like for Middling guys like myself. It's kind of awesome that there's so few awesome guys out there Because we could still get pretty awesome women, but it kind of sucks for humanity that we don't have more awesome guys Yes, well, I really Was working a lot, traveling all over the world, you know, really didn't date, have interaction with other people and was really focused on my career. And it is really more challenging, I think, to find a man who is okay with you being gone all the time. Uh, moments notice, working 20 hours a day. Yes. And I, I don't know that humans have changed very much. And you know, to me, the only way to be really successful in your career is to have a partner who both understands it, but actively supports it. Not just doesn't guilt you or punish you for working hard, but actually actively supports. And so Jack and I have always had that, which is really helpful. Can you circle me a little bit? Jack, what was your, like, situation in your career at that time and, like, where were you living and stuff? Well, we were both living in the San Francisco Bay Area. I was in, uh, Palo Alto and Ginger was in Los Altos Hills. Um, we were both working 20 hour days and traveling 225 days a year and, um, internationally and so we were, we were consumed by the work that we were doing. Um, and I had just Kind of finished raising my children, I'd gone through a really hard divorce and I'd thrown, I'd sort of sworn the other species off and said, I really don't need this headache. And so I wasn't terribly excited about dating and reestablishing a relationship with someone. Um, but you know, just, you know, I was really attracted to the description that my friend Tom gave to me about ginger and what she did. And I said, I can try something, I can try anything once. And so, and so we, um. We hooked up and I'll never forget, um, I went to her house to pick her up, which I think she was a little nervous. I was very nervous. Right. Now he's going to know where I live. Yeah, exactly. I just say, you got to be a gentleman and that's what gentlemen do. So I went and picked her up and she ran across the kitchen window and I saw her and I thought, Oh, She's really short and then, and oh, she's got red hair. You know, this is going to be fun. And it was, we, we just, you know, you know, we connected with each other, um, really, really quickly. Yeah. Yeah. We were both going through a hard time then too, not just related to divorce, but both of our mothers, my mother had just passed and, uh, no, my mother hadn't just passed. She was really sick. Wow. And her mother had just been diagnosed with, um, a recurrence of cancer, and we both knew it was really serious. Yeah. So we, we had a lot of fun. We also had, you know, a real honest conversation with each other. Yeah. So it was a, it was a meaningful first date. Well, that season of, uh, you know, caring for your elderly parents is such a interesting testing, and so many of my friends are going through it right now. You guys have probably experienced most of that, and, you know, Yeah, we've both lost both our parents, so we've been through that. And it is a, it's a big transition and I, uh, you know, even have a good friend this week whose father is in hospice and has taken a turn for the worse. And so it is a big transition in life when your parents begin to decline. Well, and marching through something hard together is a really bonding experience as well. It is, for sure. And you were both marching through hard things that most people don't understand. Anyway, um, Jack, what were you, what industry, what kind of business were you in? I'd been in the reinsurance marketplace for, I 30 years at that point. So that's some of the, like, uh, Warren Buffett kind of stuff, right? Like he's got a lot of investments in that space. I actually negotiated a handful of transactions with Buffett through my career. Okay. Um, but it was, you know, reinsurance is just an arbitrage. It's a way of spreading risk around the world. Insurance companies can only afford to take so much risk, and they lay the rest of it off into the reinsurance market. Yeah. And I facilitated those transactions, and it was a great industry. It was unre, it was unregulated. It's regulated more now than it was then. Okay. And the room for creativity was just unlimited. Oh, fascinating. And it was, it was a small industry. There were probably 200 reinsurance companies in the world. But in reality, the industry was controlled by about 15 or 20 human beings. Wow. And, uh, and, and we regulated ourselves in terms of integrity. And boy, you didn't get one strike. Huh, interesting. You just, you had to play by the rules and I'm going to want to dig more into that for sure. That's a great business idea. Yeah, yeah. I'd never heard of it. He was a treaty reinsurance intermediary and it's like, what? But it's, it's so logical if you think about an insurance company in California, insuring homes. There's a likelihood of, uh, earthquake. And so if you're an insurance company and you insure every home, and an earthquake happens, you're not going to be able to pay your claims. You're going down. Sure. You don't even want more market share. No, that's right. And so this way, insurance companies can keep part of that, but sell off the rest of that risk. So in the end, Jack created markets so that when something really bad happens, the whole world pitches in. Otherwise no one could recover. Right. Well, and like thinking about the California fires of late, like that signal that insurance companies started pulling out basically probably meant that they weren't able to sell the reinsurance part of it. Right. The market dried up for the reinsurance element of that. It really hadn't dried up. It was just getting ridiculously expensive. Right. And so the cost of homeowner's policies, um, you know, on the one hand, insurance policies like homeowner's policies are heavily regulated by insurance commissioners. The reinsurance market's not regulated and so they charge the price of freight that they think it needs to be. And so there was a mismatch. If that goes upside down. Yeah. That's like the yield curve inverting. Exactly. It was a, it It's a, it's a massive mismatch, I guess is the most way, best way, way to put it. And, you know, we're having that same experience in the state of Colorado right now over, over Hale. Um, Hale's become a, a meaningful catastrophic event. Roofing companies stay in business is hoping for hailstorms in some cases. Well, there's lots of roofing companies out there There's way too many maybe they take massive advantage of people, right? You know that needs to be cleaned up. Yeah interesting. So you're I guess probably a innovator as well as a integrity focused kind of a guy in the insurance and reinsurance space? Is that a fair? Well, there was so much. There was so much room for creativity and I thrived in it because of that. I'm getting outside the box and thinking of ways to solve problems that maybe other people hadn't thought of was a lot of fun for me. Um, coupled to the idea that you just had to, you had to trust the people on the other side of the transaction. Because we didn't document things the way we document things today. Um, it was a handshake kind of a thing, and you just never let your word, uh, be anything less than that. What a fascinating thing. That was fun. I'm gonna wanna, I'm gonna wanna zoom back in the time capsule of that. You're, you're fully retired now, what, what, did, was the athletic director, or maybe you're not. I don't know, you probably have a bunch of little fingers and things or what are you up to? I, I don't feel like I'm working. Um, I run, we've got a, we've got a horse farm, a 200 acre horse farm and we grow grass, hay and we put it up ourselves. And, um, we tend to cattle in the wintertime and, um, and the horses year round. And so there's that work to be done. I sit on a couple of boards that takes some time as well. Um, and you know, we've always got. Yeah. Plus, he helps at Ginger and Baker in a hundred ways. Necessary help there. Yeah, there's so much to be done. But he's involved with the Common Sense Institute, which I think is a really fascinating, uh, group based out of Denver. But it's Really, a group of people who invest in independent research, trying to understand the implications of proposed legislation and what it means to the economy and the people of Colorado. And so legislators often come up with ideas, things, but they don't know what it's going to mean. And I had that experience in California, mine was called the California Council on Science and Technology. And I was on that board and it did the same thing, but for the science and technology world, advising legislators. If you pass this legislation, here's the potential consequences to the innovative environment, uh, the research environment, which is big in California, all the, uh, startup companies in California. And so he's doing that for Colorado, which I think takes more of his time than he gives it credit for. Well, I think importantly, it's nonpartisan, so we don't have an agenda. We don't advocate. Rather, we, we are just committed to providing objective reports to legislators, to the media, and to the public. Wow. So that people can make informed if you raise the minimum wage to this, this is, yeah, there's the consequences or whatever those things are. So many unintended. No, that was frankly, we're going to, by the way, while I'm thinking about it, the first time I heard your name, Jack was from your daughter, uh, who worked for the sign, not the sign, but the. The Stan's Company thing? Yes. What's her name? Kaylee. Kaylee. And she came to a training kind of thing that Loco Think Tank had years ago and when she heard about what our business model was, she was like, my dad would love this. He would think this is so cool. And so I have to say that before I ever. I heard about Ginger and Baker, I heard about Jack Graham and how much he would think local think tank was cool. So it is cool. You guys are doing a great job. I come with a, uh, with a preformed disposition already. Um, so what I wanted to, um, ask also about before we departed, but so first common sense Institute, like let's talk about unintended consequences, like, and where it is for Colorado specific. So what's on the, what's on the board? And I'm going to maybe focus on Jack a little bit, Ginger, if you don't mind. Sure. I'll come back to you. But what's on the board in Colorado in the months ahead? And like, what's the circumstance in terms of, like to me, Trump and Doge or whatever cutting a lot of stuff. And as a largely libertarian kind of guy, I'm like, yay, go. But there's a ton of like research dollars and nonprofit funding grants and different things like that that are. On the chopping block at best or maybe gone and like what's gonna happen to Colorado's? Like what are the unintended consequences of all these big things that have been happening? Maybe the last Six weeks or so or yeah, and all of three weeks and all of that's happening at the federal level not the state level And we tend to focus on state legislation, but doesn't oh, okay, just legislative not the right funding another I think it's equally relevant that the at the federal level and met and much of it is is common sense and Logical in terms of the implications of the decisions that are being made I think we all love the idea of reducing the size of government. Sure. I mean, we're all kind of horrified at over 30 trillion dollars of debt, and the debt service that we've got, and all of the other costs. So, reducing the government is great, in my opinion. Reducing regulations so that we can bring back more creativity and more growth, you know, in the state, in the state of Colorado, I can be specific about the housing shortage that exists in the state of Colorado and all of the restrictions that legal restrictions as well as regulatory restrictions. Um, you think about the, the issues associated with construction defects in the construction industry, and that's why condominiums and starter homes aren't being built at this point because of the liability that contractors have. I mean, there, there's an old saying that in a construction project, particularly around condominiums, there's kind of three or four or five phases. There's the concept phase, the design phase, the finance phase, the construction phase, and then the litigation lawsuit phase. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's so predictable that it's going to well in Metro's districts are a big problem around Colorado for the same reason right now, right? Like they're, some of them got themselves in a hole. Yeah. So, keep going. But, but understanding those, understanding the regulations and the laws that are adopted by the state and how they impact an industry like the construction industry and that the, you know, the, the thought by the legislatures is, is well intended. Sure. Let's protect consumers, et cetera. Yeah, yeah. But the real implications are, are far different. Yeah. People can't afford to buy homes now. Yeah. And it takes years and years and years for projects to come to life. Um, so, those sorts of things, again, we don't advocate. We put the information out there and say, here's what's going to happen if we do this. Yeah. And some legislators listen, and some just choose to just keep marching on. So it's a little bit like the, the state function of, what's that? Like the, they do the budget kind of, this is what's happening. The Office of Management and Budget. Yes. Yes. It's very similar, but they pick topics, and actually Jack has brought them up to speak in Fort Collins because they've done specific geography studies as well. They looked at Fort Collins in particular, I think on crime, the Fort Collins study to show, and Fort Collins is doing a great job at addressing crime and, you know, at Ginger and Baker. I experience almost every day the support from the local police, from the social services, from Outreach Fort Collins, and Fort Collins is a safe community because of smart people doing the right thing and making good choices, but not every city in Colorado has that benefit. And so they did a study on crime, they've done a study on homelessness, they've done a study on housing, they've done a study on transportation, and they're available to the public. So if people are interested in. Actually being informed about some of these topics and seeing data. I like to get my information from Facebook. Thank you very much. Well, good for you. I'm teasing. We just, uh, we just released a report in the last week on the correlation between the legalization of marijuana in the state of Colorado, but across the country as well in other states. Okay. The correlation with, with Oregon and other states that have adopted similar statutes around marijuana as Colorado has. And what's it like, what's it boiled down to? It boils down to that the addiction rate, the suicide rate, is, is through the roof in states. Oh, really? Interesting. In states that have adopted the legalization of Oh, wow. Addiction rates, suicide rates, mental health issues, etc. Addiction rate to marijuana or addiction rate to other things? Like a pathway, like that Well That theory that was going back to the day is more true than we thought? You I brought that up as we were working on this project. So this concept that marijuana is a pathway drug to other harder drugs. Yeah. Um, we knew that. When I was 15 years old, I mean, they said it long time and the marijuana people at least said, nah, not really. I'm not interested in coke or whatever. Right. From my perspective. And it's not true for everybody. Not everybody's addictive in their personality, but for those who are inclined. There's no way to avoid it in America today because the enticements are so powerful. So anyway. So you think that was a bad move generally as a common sense board member kind of guy? Well, you know, as a private citizen, not as a board member because we don't advocate, but as a private citizen, I think, and I was an athletic director at Colorado State. Sure. Yeah. And so I saw the consequences of marijuana. Um, and, and particularly in young people, people who are sort of below 22 years of age. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a, I think it's a devastating drug. Okay. Um, yeah. Their, their emotional development. Yeah. It's just, there's so many consequences. So, I'm not a big fan of marijuana. Okay. And that's, by the way, I'm a guy who smoked a lot of pot when I was in college. Right. I'm not a, I'm not a choir boy by any stretch of the imagination. Right, right. I Um, you know, there's a takeover I'd like to have, but, um, I would like to see different thought process around that going forward. But another correlation to that is we also did a study on automobile theft in the state of Colorado. Yeah. I've heard that. been going up a ton, right? Well, it's getting better now because the decriminalization of automobile theft happened about four or five years ago. Okay. That we're putting too many people in jail and we, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we decriminalized auto theft and auto theft rapes. Absolutely skyrocketed to the point that we became, we were the leading state in the nation around automobile theft. It was because of the decriminalization. Well, the, in the, in the, the legislature last year adopted new statutes around automobile theft. Now there are consequences again, and guess what? The crime rate's going down. Huh. And it's going down rapidly. Probably like shoplifting in California, right? No consequences. Yeah, it was, but now it's kind of back to it's actually a crime if you get normal amounts of stuff, you know. You know, I just, you know, from my perspective, society In today's world in America is becoming less inclined to apply consequences to bad behavior. And I think that's a terrible decision. I look at the way, I look at the way people are parenting their children today. I look at the way people are raising their dogs today. And their dogs, their dogs are out of control and their children are out of control. And I think it's because you're not enforcing consequences. You're going to behave badly. There's, you got to change the behavior. I have that conversation with my wife about our cat. It's like, she's like, well, cats are harder than dogs or children. Um, but yes, it's like, if there's no real consequences to bad behavior. It's easy to continue. Well, it's also, I think, the idea that boundaries are reinforcing. Yeah. And boundaries create opportunity for growth and change. And boundaries provide security and safety. Yeah. Boundaries play a positive role. Not just a punishment role. And like I think about my dad, my dad was a tough guy. And you know, back then he, he threatened to use a belt. He never hit me, but I lived in fear of that thing. He was a stern individual. It was very clear. The world was black and white and you did not cross the line. I never. ever wanted to disappoint my dad. And kids loved him. Kids flocked to him. He ran a Bible camp. He was the coach on the softball team. You know, kids loved him. They always knew where they stood. He always had a big laugh. He loved kids, but there was no hanky panky. And I believe that Clarity is safety for children. And we should provide that, I think, boundaries for ourselves, for our peers, for our community, for our children, for our animals. Like, we don't let our horses run over us. Right. They're not bad people, right? They just have to have boundaries. And I think Yeah. All of us would do better socially and respectfully as community members if we observe boundaries with each other that include manners and civility and grace and some things like that that seem to be less Yeah, that's a fair observation. I think so many people today think that you can't love a child and enforce consequences. Right. And it's the opposite is true, as Ginger was saying. There's so much security for children. In knowing, if I cross this line, oh boy, this is not going to go well for me. And so there I feel much, much more secure in that environment. It's just a, it's that tough love concept and it's, uh, I don't know, I think it should come back. Yeah. Just call us old fashioned now. Yeah. No, that's okay. I think that's old fashioned. It's usually pretty good. Believe me, I got my fair share of it as a kid, you know, Ginger, I want to jump over to you and talk about Ginger and Baker. Uh, because it's been basically two years since you and I were here. Yeah, at least. Maybe a little longer. Yeah, a little longer than that, maybe. Um, yeah, two and a half years. How, what's, what's going on with Ginger and Baker? Like, uh, It's always been on my regular stop, and the Rotary Club is flourishing. I don't know if you've been by visiting too much, but you should. Yeah, it's a great breakfast. It is a great breakfast. Well, it's so easy. Um, so I'm part of this, this is an interesting transition, but Jack, you should come too. But on the second Wednesday of the second month of every quarter is a thing called Guys Who Give. And everybody comes, and you can nominate a non profit. When you enter that could win 6, 000 or something, and three of the nominations have to stand up and speak for that nonprofit. And give a pitch, and then everybody votes, and everybody writes a check of at least a hundred dollars to the non profit. And we, we moved to Mas Fuegos, uh, on Harmony recently. From Ptarmigan, because Ptarmigan had a change in ownership, and they wanted to charge us for the room, and we're like, we don't do expenses kind of thing. And so Steve over at Mas Fuegos hosted it, and it's So much better. Like, it's just nicer than the room we were in in Ptarmigan, and it's been, like, I know that next quarter, there's gonna be way more people than there was this last quarter, because it's just a nicer place, and that's what our Rotary Club has experienced. Well, that's really nice. So that's a double thing. Yeah. You're invited, Jack. To the next guys who give that sounds like a great event. I'll text you. You'll love it. And ginger, um, thank you for making it so easy for a rotary club to thrive and grow because of your great venue. Well, that's nice. And it really is the point, uh, you know, from the beginning, you and I talked about this a long time ago, that the idea of ginger and Baker was a community gathering place that is why it exists, otherwise it's not something we would do naturally. But saving that old mill. And creating a place for people to meet new people, to learn new things, to meet community members, to support each other, to celebrate life's transitions, weddings, and baby showers, and birthday parties, and memorial services, and for business people to gather and, you know, for them to, Meet new people, recruit people to come to Fort Collins, start new businesses. We get to be witnesses to the community as it builds itself, uh, new to town. You know, most of our business in the big months are people from outside of Fort Collins because. When school comes back in session, all the freshmen come to town and their parents and when you move a freshman in, you bring their siblings and maybe a grandparent. It's a gathering or graduation weekend. It's a gathering or the holidays. It's a gathering. And so it's a place where we meet everyone who comes to town. And they get to meet part of Fort Collins and get to see what Fort Collins is about because it's a building of history. Uh, all of our food we try to buy and partner in Fort Collins are local. So our Wagyu beef is a young couple north of town. Our dairy is morning fresh dairy. Our eggs are the guy on Wisdom Eggs across I 25. Our mushrooms are from the guys down in Loveland. Like everything we try to do is local. And so if you look at all of our branded items, our house made goods, our menu, we are trying to say, we're part of Fort Collins. This came from us, it's part of us, and we're sharing it with people who come to us. And that's the part of Ginger and Baker that I love, is the community aspect of it. Rotary is a big part of that. You know, we're trying to get more. We're a small part of it, probably. Yes, well, you know, it's a lot of people. And everyone who's a Rotarian And so they can share that experience with someone else. They can bring a friend for dinner. They can book a teaching kitchen class. They can give a gift card. If they found joy and connection and community at Ginger and Baker, they can give it away. You know, Annie Griffiths, have you met Annie yet? You should have Annie do a cooking class at Ginger and Baker as a, as a, As a social. Yeah. Because, like, I think sometimes we overlook the opportunity there. But she does, like, almost regularly, like, little things. And how many people can you host for a cooking class? Uh, well, we have generally 16. That way everyone gets to participate. Okay. Yeah. Alright. I think that would be Yeah, it'd be a lot of fun. She would love that. Yeah. So, well, I've loved it. I think it's, and, it's the best spot in town for so many things. Well, that's nice. Um. And especially a Rotary Club. So, how, how, like, hmm, how do I say this? Does that big building, like, make any money yet? Like, is the business model sorted out? Is that too Not yet? It kind of feels bad to say so. Uh, we've never been closer. That's what I keep saying to Jack. You're closer. I've never been closer. Closer and closer. You know the You're like the Chicago Cubs. Well, but they did win the World Series. They did one day. Yes. Yes. It is such a challenging business, such a challenging business. I was just looking today, you know, January, we just went through all the results of January and our labor costs were up 14 percent from a year ago, January. Our food costs were up 11 percent from a year ago, January. And uh, our liquor license went up, uh, 17 and a half percent from a year ago. And I just paid that yesterday. And so I'm trying to figure out how to outrun. Yeah. What is happening. And then, you know. Well, insurance costs, local property tax costs. Everything is up. Workers comp is up. Family leave is up. Labor is up so much from a few years ago. Our property taxes went up 67 percent and that's after I appealed because the original assessment was a 127 percent increase. So I, uh, I know it's a great business. I believe the community cares and supports Ginger and Baker. Uh, but it is very challenging to run. A business that, uh, it's 136 employees, we're open six days a week, 7am to 9pm. It's a lot of people, uh, it's, you know, it's, what is it? I've forgotten even now, 26, 000 square feet. It's a bunch of different rooms, a lot of different experiences, and, you know, we are We are not in charge of anything that comes in our door. So, being a one site local small business, we have no negotiating power with food suppliers. Uh, you know, the city charges us for water and gas, and we don't, we don't control any of that. Property taxes as much as they want to. Uh, liquor licenses, food permits, you know, we are the receiver of all of these decisions. And so far, it has not generated an income statement that has a positive bottom line. I'm sorry to ask that question, by the way, I'm sure it's probably a little humbling. It's so frustrating, honestly, Kurt. What, like, where's the opportunity, like, is it event space maximization? Is the cash being busy more often? Is it the, like, where's the biggest opportunity? Yes. Well, all of the above. I mean, I think it is true. We have launched catering, so we are now offering catering. We're not doing full service catering yet. We're doing drop off catering, but that part of the business is growing. We have a, a gift basket line that is growing substantially as well with house branded products and yes, a lot of fun items, uh, we have. Grown the teaching kitchen substantially. We're doing five to eight classes a week. Now the cafe, uh, we opened more hours again after COVID, you know, we had limited hours. So we increased our hours that helps a little bit, uh, for us. I believe there's opportunity to increase awareness about the cash. You can't believe how many people still walk in the building and go, Oh, what's upstairs. Right? So we haven't gotten the word out yet. Honestly, unfortunately. Yeah. Not that I come very often, because I can afford it, but I'm not your demographic, really. Well, the Cache is, you know, I think I can afford it. I can afford it once a quarter. Yes, you know, and for a special occasion, who needs to eat out, you know, every night at a place like that. But I think it's amazing though. The Cache is there like three times. I'm so glad three out of my seven favorite dinner meals in Fort Collins. Well, that's nice. It's it is a place where you can get The best wine in town if you want or a local bottle of wine, you know, you can get a hundred percent Grown Wagyu here in Fort Collins, butchered locally, and we cut it up in the business so you can get exact special cuts. You know, you can have that experience. You can have one of the most expensive bourbons you've ever heard, had. You can have any, you know, an incredible. evening or you can come to the bar, have fun, order an appetizer, get a cocktail, you know, be there with friends. You can come for dessert. We have fabulous desserts, the seven layer chocolate cake up there. I would put up against anything on the planet. So you can come for fun. You can come casual. You can come early. You can be the last stop of your evening. But we just want it to be something the community has at its disposal and enjoys. And I think our biggest challenge with the cash is building the brand of Ginger and Baker, then try to translate that brand and say to people, and oh, by the way, the cash is also there. And so we're, we just hired a marketing firm the first time since we've been open. Uh, we're working with, uh, Connie at Mantu care locally, and she's helping us try to get the word out about the cash. And I think it's an important part of the business. Yeah. I agree. And really, you know, Jack has very strong views about the cache and it's, you know, it's a steakhouse. It's a really nice experience. It's nice furnishings, uh, professional servers, you know, the, our staff up there has been with us for a long time and so it's a different experience. Are the SunnyLubix people a little bit like, cause you're CSU all through with the athletic director thing and stuff. Is it a little bit bumping heads about who's like cooler? I would say not at all. Yeah. You're obviously cooler at the cash Well, you know, I'm just saying I love Lu. Yeah. You know, I love Sonny. It's, it's a, he's got a great spot. Yeah. Um, they're on a, they're in a part of town. We'd love to be. It's a lot easier. we'd love to be at the corner. Yeah. We'd love to be at the corner of Mountain in college. Yeah. Yeah, it would make the business easier for sure. Yeah, the logistics of getting across Jefferson Street. Yeah. It's a big deal. It really is. We talk about it a lot. But honestly, Kurt, I don't think dining spaces in downtown Fort Collins really compete. You know, I think they're all unique experiences. So Jack's is different than rare is different than Japan. Go is different than Sonny's is different than the cash. And I'm glad we have those choices. Jack and I, you know, frequent all of those places. We don't Only eat at the cache. So you don't have a tab at the cache. Well, you do, but we do hang out. It's because I don't cook anymore. I'm there all the time. And so he has to come over there if he wants to eat. Um, well, I feel like what would be fun is to kind of explore your journey a little more. You know, we went back to Arkansas with Ginger Jack, uh, in my first conversation with her. So we don't need to revisit that too much. It's episode. 73? 76? Do you remember? I don't. Anyway, listeners can find it. Um, but I'd love to just hear a little bit about your journey and stuff, but before we do that, I'm gonna call a break, and I'm gonna use a potty break, and uh, we'll start back up. Okay. Hi, this is Clint Jasperson, Managing Partner at Purpose Driven Wealth. We believe financial clarity leads to a life of contentment and purpose. Our mission is to guide clients through the complexities of wealth management, retirement planning, and legacy using a values driven, stewardship based approach focused on provision, contentment, and enjoyment. With more than a century of expertise through Thrivent, we offer tailored strategies to help individuals and families Achieve their goals and embrace generosity. Whether you're navigating a life or business transition or planning for the future, we're here to partner with you every step of the way to learn more about purpose driven wealth. Call 9 7 0 3 3 0 7 4 1 1. We're back and, uh, how was that bathroom break for you, Jack? Important. Necessary. Um, we're, we're going to go ahead and just like jump back in the time machine for now. And when we come back to present day, we're going to talk a little bit more about like kind of business principles and practices and stuff. Cause I think having a couple of. Experts, uh, here. I shouldn't miss that, but first we're going to learn about little Jack. So, uh, seventh grade or seven years old, little Jack or Four or five years old. Were you born in Colorado? Are you from here? No, I was actually born in Ohio, Ohio. Yeah, my dad My dad was a great man. He lived 101. We just oh, wow. Yeah, he's a great man. Oh, well, he was Captain of the 781st Tank Battalion fought in World War II for a very, very long time. Oh, wow. Fought a very, very hard war. So, quantifiably, great man. Not just a cool guy, my dad. God star, silver star, purple hearts. Wow. I mean, he fought. Yeah. And, um. And the French Legion Medal of Honor. Yeah. Which is also amazing. Yeah. He did some hard stuff. Um, but he, uh, when he got out of the war, um, went to work and, uh, went to work for the, in, in the, in the insurance industry. Okay. For what was then called the insurance company of North America, which is now Cigna. Um, and they bounced him all over the place until he landed in San Francisco. Oh. And I was a very young child. I was about one and a half or two years old, and so I rai I was born in, not born, I was raised in. Palo Alto, California, right next to Stanford University. Um, it was an idyllic childhood in so many ways. Yeah. San Francisco was in its heyday at the time. Oh, Palo Alto was a rural community. I watched Hewlett Packard and Philco Ford and all the other great businesses show up. Page Mill Road was a dirt road when I was a kid, where all the Silicon Valley companies are. Um, so it was, it was a great childhood. I had two brothers and two sisters and, um, You know, we were older, younger, uh, one younger and the rest were older. Okay. So I was the second to youngest We had we we we didn't have anything that we wanted We all wanted a new baseball glove and a new baseball bat and new blue jeans Everything was a hand me down because we were classic middle class kids. Okay, you know, we didn't need anything We were well fed Security was great, all that stuff. I mean, that was normal. Yeah, 85 percent of America was like that. Hand me downs was, like, the way of the world if you had multiple siblings. And we didn't know differently, and so it was great. Yeah. It was great. But, uh I had, you know, I was, I was really well raised by my parents. And what, uh, I'm sorry, keep going. No, no, it's okay. What kind of a kid were you? Like, uh, were you athletic? Were you intellectual? Were you curious? Like, what were some of the things that your siblings or your parents would have described you as in those They would have described me as, you know, addicted to sports. I did, I played every sport you could play. Football, baseball, basketball, tennis, golf. I just, you know, I just, everything that moved I wanted to get to work. Were you like, big and strong early? No, very, very different. Oh, really? I was a very late developer when I was Okay. Let's see, I guess I was a sophomore in high school. Um, I was 5'6 and weighed about 120 pounds. Yeah. I was, I was tiny. And, um, I didn't play football my junior year in high school because I was too small. Um, but I stayed I didn't, I didn't even go out. I was Right. I was the manager on the football team my junior year in high school. Okay. And then I grew six or eight inches and I still weighed about 120 pounds. So it was a walking razor blade. Um, but I could, I could throw stuff and you know, I was, I was competitive. And so, um, football became a huge part of my life. And you were the quarterback, I guess? I was the quarterback in high school. Um, I was also, I was a good golfer. Um, people who play golf with me now don't believe that. Not true. Not true. So athletics was a big part of my life. I was always a good student. Um, I took, um, I can't say that I took my education seriously. I took it for granted to be honest with you. I just assumed I'd matriculate through high school and go to college and move on and have a life and never thought of education as being a core part of that. That path just kind of took it for granted, which is an odd thing to say. Um, but I got out of high school and didn't have any football scholarship offers, but I still wanted to play football and ended up at the university of California at Santa Barbara and, um, was having a lot of success there athletically and I was getting a great education. I really appreciated the education at Cal. It was such a great school. And, um, this is 1970. And the student body rioted, this is the middle of the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights Movement, and the turmoil was, was, um, Was it more intense in California than other parts of the country? Kinda, we hear about Ohio and a couple of other places, but Cali has been on the edge of protests for a while. I think it, you know, I think places like Kent State and Yeah. Um, places in Chicago and Yeah. other parts of the country were equally intense, but you know, being in the San Francisco Bay Area Yeah. with the Haight Ashbury District there Berkeley right nearby and we're not you know, we live literally right next door to Stanford University. Um. It was, uh, it was, it was top of mind and it was discussed. Um, when I was, uh, at, at, uh, University of California student body rioted and. Um, when we came, we blew up the Bank of America and we, yeah, some people, yeah, some people, well, we are, we are collective or something, but, you know, like get that out of your mouth. Yeah. Have you ever been a lawsuit, but I was, um, You know, I, I, I've always been interested about things that are, are not necessarily just political, but social as well. You know, how is society moving? What are people thinking? What's, what's gonna happen next? What were you gonna school for? I was studying history. Okay. I studied American history. Jeffersonian history. Okay. Specifically interesting. Um, so I, and I, I thought I was gonna go on and be an attorney, you know, when I, when I graduated college. Um, uh, but when the university was closed, we came back, uh, when it reopened and the athletic department, um, shut down the football program, everybody's scholarship. And so I said, I want to keep on playing ball. And so I ended up going on a journey. At that point, I went down to San Diego state and played there for Don Coryell. Okay. He made me a tight end instead of a quarterback. And I got You know, beat up. You were way too skinny for that. And I said, this is real football. This is real football. I want to go play quarterback again. I like to throw the thingy. Yeah. Don't hit me after that. Um, so I ended up having to go back to junior college to reestablish. And so I ended up going to four universities. Oh, wow. Colorado State was my last stop and it was a great stop. Yeah. So you were already junior or senior by that time? I was a junior when I came to CSU. Okay. So I played my junior and senior year here. And did you start right away? Um, I think I started the third or fourth game, second or third game in, I can't remember to be honest. Um, I had a great offensive coordinator coach, a guy by the name of Doug Gearhart, who in my opinion, which I think is kind of informed, I think Doug Gearhart is actually the inventor of the West Coast offense. He coached with Bill Walsh, um, and uh, was in, you know, lots of different places, and I think Doug, Kind of that short pass kind of notion was Well, CSU that year was the number one in NCAA for passing yards. So Oh, wow. Passing and passing and total offense as well. And total offense. So, they had the stats nationally. They led the nation in what, eight of your senior team were drafted by the NFL. So they had a pretty successful football program. Nine of us were drafted, two guys and one guy of us. You were drafted as well. Yeah. I was drafted by the dolphins. Okay. And, uh, Mark Mulaney was drafted in the first round and Al Simpson was drafted in the first round. I mean, we had some ballplayers, some good talent. So it was a great experience and it was formative in many ways. Yeah. What did you think when you landed in? Because where was your previous stop on your college transfer tour? Besides Colorado State? Yeah, before that. Well, I was at a junior college, Foothill Junior College, in the Bay Area in San Francisco. Okay, okay. Before that, San Diego State, and before that And then you like, land this CSU thing, and it was, I presume, both based on kind of interviews and performance, and then you, did you come to Colorado for the first time, or had you been already? I don't think I had ever been to Colorado until I came here on a recruiting trip. Yeah. And, um, I'd been offered a scholarship to go to Weber State, um, in Utah. And so, you know, who knows what life would have been if I'd gone to Weber State. Right, never would have met Ginger, probably. Well, you never know. Who knows. Who knows. Um, but what did you think about Fort Collins at the time? Because this is like, what, like the It's 1972, 73, right around there. It's just kind of starting to turn into cool town in some ways. I think it was still a cow town. Cow town. 73. Cow town to cool town by the 90s. Kind of. But, you know, again, it was one of those things that didn't really matter that much to me because the people I was with, uh, my friends, the ball players I was playing ball with. I loved them and we had a great life with each other and I didn't care what city I lived in. It would have been great any place. So the place I was didn't really matter that much before Collins was a very nice place. I did enjoy it. So, um, to get to the next stop in the career, kind of like how did you were growing up in an insurance family? Is that just kind of what you jumped into right out of the gate or? Not that Well, I, because I was playing football, I bounced, oh yeah, I bounced around the You got drafted Yeah, I bounced around the, I bounced around the NFL. Okay. A couple years unsuccessfully. Never really caught on with anybody, but I was completely obsessed by it. That's what I wanted to do. You were focused. I was absolutely focused. That's what I wanted. Um, and by the time, so you probably ate your first humble pie at. Like 24 or 25 or something when that started to dry up that dream, right? I bounced around with really six different teams over that time frame. And so I was, you know, hired and fired on the practice team and this and that, whatever. Yeah. And let me tell you, when you get cut, it's a blow. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a statement of being, I mean, I, I tell the story all the time. When, when people ask you what you do, you don't say, well, Um, I do lawyering, or I do doctoring, you say, I am a lawyer, I am, it's a statement of being of who you are, and I am a football player. So, you lose your identity, particularly something you're that wrapped up in, and it takes a while to I'm almost on the team for the Dolphins, or whatever, right? Like, you're not quite anything. Right. You just, and you know, it hurts to lose all those relationships not being in the huddle or the locker room anymore. Um, it's um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really life life altering and it takes a ginger. And I talk about this all the time about change, whether change is good or change is bad changes change. And you have to mourn the loss of what you've just changed from where you're moving to. Yeah. And it does take a while to learn how to live a different identity than the one that you've just lost. And that's whether you're fired from a job, a banking job someplace or fired from something that you really enjoy and you don't get to do it anymore. It takes a while to recover from it. So what was that like for you? Like at the end of your NFL career, did you like, okay, I guess I got it. A real job. He said I had to get a real job. Yeah. You know, I was going to go to, I was going to go up to Canada and play ball. I thought about going to Japan. Japan was playing ball as well. Um, my dad kind of grabbed me by the throat and said, you're not that good. It's time to move on. Right. You might be able to make 20 grand a year in Japan, but that's not really that great. So, um. You know, I was too busy. I had two children at that. And so the need for me, there wasn't a whole lot of time to sit on my hands and worry about what I just had lost. It was time to go on and get something done. Yeah. And so, um, I went to work in the retail banking business. Okay. Um, my first wife was from Cheyenne Wyoming. We moved up there. Oh, wow. I went to work for the first national bank and trust company of Cheyenne Wyoming. Interesting. And, um, I learned a lot about money. Yeah, awful lot about money. A lot of good tools came out of that experience, but I didn't need to learn a whole lot more. I thought there was something more interesting in life than that. And so, um, ended up going to a privately owned reinsurance intermediary. Yeah, that's, that's, it's like investment banking. Yeah, it's all about raising capital. And so I did, that's how I ended up in the reinsurance marketplace. It's almost like an arbitrage play with occasional setbacks. Is that reinsurance in a nutshell? I don't know. Yeah, well I was, I went from being an intermediary and doing transactions and bringing parties together to actually underwriting risk and taking the risk myself, um, as part of my career. Oh, interesting. And so, um, you go years and years and years without paying a claim if you're just ensuring earthquakes and hurricanes and tsunamis and floods and things of that sort. And then all of a sudden the world explodes. So in 2004 and 2005, um, we had 15 hurricanes make landfall in the space of a little over a year. Uh, Charlie, Francis, Ivan, Gene, Katrina, Rita, William. I could tell you all of them. I remember that season. We paid, uh, we paid out billions of dollars of claims in a very short period of time. And you didn't have it covered necessarily, hedged or whatever? Oh, we absolutely didn't. Yeah, so this is after we moved to Boulder because Jack had started. You guys had met by now. Yes. What year did you guys meet? It would reveal your age, but 96. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I just turned 52. Okay. No, that's not Yeah, but he had started a company in Boulder that the it was the first internet based Insurance company and it underwrote catastrophic risk and they devised the first program that literally Uh, looked at the collection of risk, like a map, with every zip code and every address, and they knew the geology below the house, the proximity to a coast, and they knew how many they had. So you were using big data before big data was cool. Yeah, he was the first one, started his own company, and then became the first Lloyds of London syndicate outside of London, and all of that around catastrophe. So I always used to tell people, he's a disaster waiting to happen, that's who Jack is, because he's his whole. Business was built around preparing for catastrophic events. Yeah. What, here's a question for you out of the blue, just like, have you ever made any money on gingerbread baker yet? Um, what is, what are the biggest potential catastrophes facing the U. S. right now? I think the unbottled explosion is earthquake in California right now. Yeah. We haven't had a major event in California. Really since I'd say 1994, the Northridge earthquake in 1994 and, and earthquake seismic events are like stress for the right, like Bank of America started because of the San Francisco earthquake back in the day, but you know, seismic faults, particularly in Northern California, the strike slip faults that go laterally horizontally with each other, they're always moving and the more they move before they release, the more tension builds up. And when they do move finally, they can be cataclysmic. So I think that's a big deal. I think the idea of a class five hurricane making landfall in a real populated part of the world, and that has not happened. I mean, people think the disasters that have happened recently Like a real populated place being like a Miami Miami, or if it really comes into New Orleans New Orleans, properly Katrina, Katrina was a big deal, a relatively big deal. But that was storm surge that came into the 9th Ward. Right. Um, in and around New Orleans, but it was a, 2 hurricane event, so the wind damage was nominal. Um, if, if we have a Cat 5 going to Houston, or going to New Orleans, or Yeah, even South Carolina, some of those areas over there are pretty heavily populated too. Yeah, I think those are all Okay. major, major exposures, and, you know, we're, we're not talking about You know, a 50 or 60 billion event. We're talking 120, 150 billion event that will alter the economy of America in a very meaningful way. So on top of the disaster that it represents, right? Just all the lives. Yeah, exactly. I don't mean to sound insensitive. No, but it's, it's like the fires that have been going in Southern California. And, you know, part of it is because we all want to live in places that are high risk. The values are so high. You know, close to the ocean, in Tornado Alley, in Hurricane Proximity, in beautiful foothills of Colorado. And so we build and we build. In the trees. And then the disaster happens. So the significance of the disaster keeps escalating. And these things, yes, they're costly, but they're also giant. Disruptions socially. Communities, entire communities. More like the Asheville area and stuff. Like it's just like still coming back together. You know, and most people aren't in permanent housing by any means yet. Kentucky's taking it right in the nose in the last five days. Yeah. The flooding. So you're like super tuned in to like those major societal kind of Events and just not because of your current vocation necessarily, just because your expertise. I pay attention to that stuff. Yeah. You know, I think about my orientation to society and I've always, I've always had this sort of ability to read the tea leaves a little bit earlier before people do. And I can remember, um, back in the late 70s, early 80s. And watching what was going on in terms of the way in which America was arming itself with guns and weapons. Um, and the debates weren't really even started at that point. Yeah. There was no real conversation about the Second Amendment. But I just watched the proliferation of guns in America. Yeah. I just sort of said to myself, Holy shit. This is going to be a big deal. It's going to be more murderers because of this. This is going to be a bad thing. And, um, I just had a sense that that was going to happen. Yeah. There's other things going on around the world today that concern me a lot. And so Do you care to share? Like Well, I think that I look at what's happened over the space of the roughly last ten years, maybe fifteen years, but particularly the last ten years, around how much we have completely Discredited the American government, the institutions of the Supreme Court or the FBI or the CIA, you know, and, and, you know, Donald Trump has made a living at doing that. And, you know, it's gotten him elected, so he's gotten his own gain out of that, but at what cost? You know, the cost of, you know, causing the American people to lose trust in those institutions is massive. Well, and question, did he make it happen or did he bring it to light? Um, that's a really good question. That's a really good question, and I think there are certainly flaws in those institutions. Um, and at the same time, I think that he has brought it to life. I think he has, he has just amplified it. He's definitely traded on it. So, you know, maybe he's, maybe he saw it and amplified it. Uh, maybe he's highlighting it, but he cast it like, you know, even this week, what's going on this week, Jack and I were talking federal employees are not. Right. They're not stupid. Right. They're not mean. Right. They're not lazy. They're not usurous. Federal employees were employed for a purpose. Yeah, like he's, he's talking this line. Mm hmm. And it may be that we all say, we don't need so much of that. And in fact, let's do less of that. But it doesn't mean the person is the problem. Yeah. That has some kind of a personal attack. If you're a federal employee, you're a bad person. Yes, the demonizing of individuals. I have a lot of trouble with. I would agree with that. But I think too, I mean, the Supreme Court is imperfect. Um, I think it has been politicized to a degree. But I still trust those justices personally, you know, whether they're Donald Trump appointees or whomever appointed Yeah, I do trust them and although there's too many party line votes for me to trust them super well Both in Congress and the courts that is their orientation to the Constitution. So I kind of give them a pass on that I don't give Clarence Thomas a pass, however, and his behavior. I think that's way outside the boundaries of a well behaved Supreme Court justice, and I would like to see him go away. Um, so I, that, that's the one blister that bothers me, but I think most recently, just in the last two weeks since the um, air disaster at Reagan in Washington, D. C. with the helicopter, the commercial jet, the American Airlines jet. Um, you know, Donald Trump comes on the news the next day and just blisters the FAA, right? And he criticizes DEA, he criticizes the DEA initiatives and by the, uh, uh, the USA. No, diversity, equity and inclusion, right? Um, uh, and, and, and, uh, by the way, I think he's directionally correct about that. Right. DEI policy in the FAA has caused him to be unable to staff the organization. Yeah. But you would think that every, um, air traffic controller that's up in those towers today. Right. If you just listen to him, he's like, well, they've hired nobody but fools, right? Yes. That's a bad quote. Right. We don't believe that. And so with social media, with social media and the propensity for Americans to go down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories, all of a sudden we don't trust the FAA anymore. Right. So I, You know, so I, I will stick by my words that I think that he has amplified and accelerated the discrediting of American, really important American institutions. Well, and I will agree with you in that regard, and I will also agree with him when he says that the media was kind of a bunch of crap, uh, prior to his arrival, that there was some stuff going that, you know, wasn't good. It's so interesting, yes. Well, I think, you know, in general media. Has taken a turn in, you know, the most recent past media has become more entertainment. And so the role of journalism, I have a journalism minor, I worked for a newspaper. I worked for a radio station. Uh, you know, I, I really believe in the institution and the power of journalism as it stands for investigative reporting. Both sides of the story, the clarity of facts. And we all are, unfortunately, I think, subject to an entertainment industry that cast itself with a news headline. And that's very difficult to sort. And, you know, Jack and I, kind of drives me crazy. We watch CNN, then we watch Fox, and then we watch CNBC, and then we watch NPR, or we listen to it, and then we watch public television. And at the end of it, you go, Can those people be living in the same America talking about the same topic? Because the Venn diagram doesn't overlap. There are completely alternate views of the world. And I don't believe that's good for any of us. We, uh, in a way are being hoodwinked by the entertainment industry. And I want us to separate us. It's great at the camps and the tribes and that sort of thing. Well, and humans are kind of tribal anyway. You know, and so I think the tribes that we should be in is the people that live close to me. Community. In my community. That's my tribe. Community is important. But even locally, you know, the school board divisions, the city council divisions, that we need our leaders here in Fort Collins. It used to be your church. Yes. Yeah. It used to be. But to rise up. To better leadership to more honest and open conversation to willingness to listen to wildly different viewpoints that your own that are expressed civilly and with substance and, you know, we, we can't let Fort Collins. Be that it's we're better than yeah, we have to be better than that And yeah, I do think it's an individual responsibility to both seek multiple viewpoints to behave civilly and respectfully to be willing to be challenged because There are many ways to view the world and not all of them are pleasant And so I do think you know, we have to own that as citizens of Fort Collins and as Americans I think the whole subject of Donald Trump is really important to talk about. Yeah. And find a way to talk about it with people openly. Um, I love what's going on right now. I mean, I love what's going on. The Doge stuff and whatever else. I do, I do, and it's a bit of a blunt instrument. Yeah. And I could be very critical of lots of Okay. aspects of it, but something radical had to happen Yeah. to stop the growth of, I mean, 36 trillion dollars of debt. Yeah, and, and It's the biggest two or three trillion a year. More. It's a threat to our society. More civilization. Long term. Yeah. For sure it is. Our children, our grandchildren. It's burying the future. So it's real. And it's If interest rates go up two points, two hundred basis points, on thirty six trillion dollars of debt. Right. It consumes, at that point the debt service consumes the entire budget. Yep. No, no more defense. Yeah. No more anything. No more education. That's how big a deal it is. Yeah. So it's We are on a really fragile rope, um, in that regard, but going back to Donald Trump, because I, I think it's important to talk about it. And as I said, there's lots of things that he does that I like. I mean, I think he's a smart guy and he understands how to change things. He's a, he is a change agent and all that stuff. When I was the athletic director at Colorado State, the only thing I really did to intervene in the activities of my coaches, you know, whether it was a head football coach, basketball coach, volleyball coaches, whatever it was, um, they had to fill out a form for every student athlete that they were intending to offer a scholarship to. Okay. And they couldn't offer the scholarship until they finished, finished the form and gave it to me. And all I read about was their behavior. You know, how many layers of social media deep did you go to find out, has this kid's mother or father been arrested? Has this kid been arrested? Just, I want to know what this kid's character is. Because the rule was real simple, no bad characters. I don't care how good a student you are. I don't care, I'm sorry, I don't care how good an athlete you are. Um, I watched, you know, in personal experience in my own athletic career, I watched some Phenomenal athletes who were terrible teammates, destroy teams. And I could talk about Johnny Manziel. You could talk about Terrell Owens. You know, these are phenomenal, phenomenal athletes and how many teams did they destroy, you know, legitimately, legitimately blow them up. And so for me, that's Donald Trump. I look at Donald Trump's character, and he does not tick the box for me. I've looked at his business career and how many billions of dollars did he lose for investors. He screwed people over here and there and this and that. He wears, he puts lawyers in his pocket like a gun. Um, he talks about women like they're chattel. And, and just he can't, he doesn't tick the character box for me. So he's not even a candidate, you know, he doesn't even get, he doesn't even get on the list. But he's the president. Well, he is the president, so yeah, he is my, he is my president. Right. He is my president. And he's doing a bunch of stuff that you think is But prudent but you know, and you know, so that's an interesting thing for me to have that Attention, I guess if you but I'll but I'll stick my neck out and say how sustainable is it? How long is it gonna take for him to blow himself up or blow somebody? I don't know some institution And I and I will tell you from my perspective It's absolutely guaranteed. It'll happen because it's, he's just, because you're a risk analyst and he can't help himself. Is that what you're saying? That's exactly what I'm saying. Interesting. Um, and, and at the same time, all of the stuff, and I understand why he's the president of the United States, the reasons are valid and the democratic party and the left wasn't listening. By the way, I'm, I'm an independent, I've gone down both paths and so I can think both ways. I voted for Kanye in 2020. So, yeah. Oh no, but I voted for Trump for the first time in 2024. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I mean, you know, not because I think he's awesome. Mostly because he drew RFK and Tulsi and a number of other real voices in the political commentary to his camp, and he humbled himself a fair bit. Like I hadn't really seen Trump do that, but in his acceptance of those other voices to the cause. We'll call it, he humbled himself a fair bit. It's quite a diverse cast of characters. It really is. There's no doubt about that. It really is. How it's Uh, accelerates change to the benefit of the American public is what we will all be watching. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I, and I do worry. Yeah. And I'm holding my breath. If you read my blog from last month, it's like, I don't know if orange man bad or not, but you people freaking out just cause orange man bad should probably just. step on the brakes a little bit and wait and see how it goes. And again, I'll, I'll make a statement that a lot of people could call, you know, kind of off the rails kind of a thing, but this isn't that perfect sort of social local experience podcast. It's that sort of social instinct capability that I think I have a bit inside me of watching things happening. Do you think it's Hitler? Well, this is exactly the path I was headed down. Who would have ever thought, who would have ever thought that brown shirts? Could exist in American society, that people would be watching each other, that the institutions would be taken down. That the safeguards around those institutions would be dismantled. And all that stuff is taking place right in front of our eyes right now. And what's the endgame? What's the purpose here? Is it to pass the baton to J. D. Vance or maybe it's to Marco Rubio? Who, what's an, or is it for him to find a way to stay in office perpetually? And I know that's a ridiculous thing to say out loud, but it's not, I don't think it is. I think it's something we all need to, we should be watching and we shouldn't be afraid to say those things out loud because the more we say them out loud, the less likely it is that it will happen. Yeah, that's fair. And so, um, Can I send it back to you, Ginger? Are you as nervous about this as your risk analysis husband? I think he is. Always more forward thinking from a social structure perspective than I am. I'm very much about Jack is or he is. Jack is just checking. Yeah, I don't know about Donald. Honestly. Um, I think Jack is Very attuned. He does have a vibration, like a pitchfork that is about social unrest, about social norms, about behaviors socially, really macro. And I consider myself to be much more about who showed up today. Do people speak civilly? You like me because I'm me. Yes, and it's, it's really about how we treat each other one to one right now in this moment because in the end, I believe that's all that matters. Yeah. Even, like, we, Jack The rest of it is an aggregation of those smaller things. Yes, and, and yes, you, you have, you are in that pond. You are swimming in that pond. But, uh, like, uh, Frankel's book about man's search for meaning Sure. He was in The concentration camp and some people help the Nazis, some people, you know, hurt their own brother. Some people gave up. Some people committed suicide. He, he pushed himself to find meaning and hold himself accountable to a different level. And I would like to think that our challenge individually. Is to not be what is cast upon us, but to be what's right and who we are and hopefully by that help affect change, you know, in the ripple effect. I do believe in community. I believe in the influence in community. I believe that knowing our neighbors is part of our social responsibility. We know our neighbors house by house who they are and we know their dog's name and you know, we. Trade soup cans or you know, we, we are friends with our neighbors. I feel like that's part of our social responsibility. I know the river district business owners, because that's the community we're in. You know, we participate in a number of activities in the community, like the funding of a new center for the homeless population that actually is designed to provide services to reenter people into a productive society. Yeah, it's not. It's social services. It's nutrition. It's a accelerator. I believe, and I've been so impressed by the leadership. Again, the, the people who are making this happen in town are people who have standards. They hold people accountable. They offer, uh, Doors into futures, but people have to walk through those doors with responsibility. And it is true. And I have become, you know, even more acutely aware because of our location in the community with the business that if you're trying to get on your feet again, and you want to go do a job interview and you are homeless. Where are you going to take a shower? Do you have any clean clothes? If everything you own is with you, where do you put it when you go to a job interview? If you put it under a bridge and everything you own is stolen, then tomorrow what do you do? The barriers to re entering society are enormous if you fall off the train. And so the idea that as a community, That we create a way for people who want to be contributing members of society to enter a door that has a bed, food, mental health support, physical health support, Maybe training on how to interview a shower and a locker for your things so you can go to your transportation So what path do we want people to be on and that for me? That's the world I live in more than Jack and we've always we are very different and yet have giant overlapping Venn diagrams personally about our values about our But he is way more out there in bigger picture, whether it's designing Ginger and Baker, or whether it's seeing social trends. I am more. What are we doing? And who are we influencing? And what is our part? Who's in my immediate contact circle? And what can our voice help do in this moment? And so we have different perspectives. And I, I personally have trouble with people whose values, I believe, lead them to demean or belittle or dehumanize others. And so I struggle with some of the dialogue today by our leaders because that dialogue is demeaning and dehumanizing. It doesn't mean that I disagree with where they might be going, but I don't appreciate or support the way they're going to take us there because we will be a meaner, more judgmental, more fractured community on their train. We all need more grace and more love and knowledge, more real time walking in other shoes and all that kind of stuff. So if we get somewhere better and on the way, we hate each other and we separate from each Our budget is balanced, but we hate each other. Are we good there? Yeah. That's not any better than going bankrupt together. I'm not too crazy about that. Yeah. That's fair. I dig that. Ginger's capacity to care for people is unlimited. She's a remarkable woman. I mean, she's obviously a remarkable executive and leader, and gets more things done than any human being I've ever known in my life. And I mean that literally. But, you know, our neighbor across the pasture, and three houses down, in his mid eighties, Let's go check in on him. Yeah. Let's go take him a piece of pie. And, and, cause he's alone. And, and, he's singular. But there's so many of those people that she thinks about that way. Yeah. You remind me a lot about, uh, the Matthews House founder, Jerry. And, uh, just that heart to really try to want to help everybody, but just the Knowledge that you can't actually do that, you know, it's more about trying to set cultural trends and changes and stuff and I hope that, I hope for both, I guess, of your sakes, kind of that notion of community and the notion of multi inputs to this current mega plus maha plus whatever else is going on, um, won't be a problem. terrifying, but instead can be beneficial, and we'll see. I hope, you know, we'll see if you're right or wrong in that regard, Jack, in terms of the risk component. Yeah, so I told Jack when he went to CSU, the first revolutionary always gets beheaded. Right. It's a view that I have always held, in business, in social structures. When people see a dramatic change that needs to occur and they are willing to demonstrate the courage and the perseverance to cause the change, they will be unpopular. The first revolutionary always gets beheaded. Jack has that kind of courage. There are people who have that kind of courage. Maybe that's what we're experiencing, that the first revolutionaries are moving. And it may be that the opportunity for us to remake America again, uh, with more individual accountability and autonomy, with more personal responsibility, with a future for our kids. And just a smaller drag on the system. A future for our kids that's brighter. Maybe that's what we're facing. And change is uncomfortable. As Jack said, I worked for a guy once who said, all change is loss. And all loss must be grieved. So even if you're changing for something great for the future, you're giving something up. And you gotta grieve it. And so there's grief in this process. And there's hope. But there's also fear. And all of us have a role to play, I think. I like that. I like that notion. We have to bring heart. And, um, humor. I looked up communitarian. Uh, apparently communitarian isn't a good thing'cause it was like too much close to communism. But like I was thinking maybe I'm kind of a communitarian. I'm not a libertarian per se. I'm not a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. I'm kind of, I'm a local first guy ultimately, and I'm a principals kind of guy. Notionally, um. Before we get into our mandatory, shouldn't talk about segments, we're gonna, um, do our, uh, grab bag. Oh. Cause we've got two ginger and baker slices of pie, and Two each, or just No, there's two total pies. We're giving them away. So these are for the listeners, you guys are giving these away. You're not giving two to, two to two different people, you're just giving one? One. One. We could've done two. Yeah, bring somebody. No, but bring somebody. You get a free slice of pie, so bring somebody else. I'll double down. We'll give two to each winner. Okay, so I'll write on back, plus two, basically. We'll just put that right on back. Per Jack. Okay, so these are the, uh, awkward or businessy or who knows what kind of questions. Oh, I can't draw your balls though. So Jack, why don't you draw two of those. And Ginger, I'm gonna have you draw two. Okay. And then we're going to ask you guys these questions, and one of the four questions is going to be the prize winner. Yeah, we're not going to go all over the place here. So what numbers do you have, Jack? Uh, 23 and 17. 23. Oh, this is a fun one. And 17 was your second? Any stupid human tricks that you're willing to share or show? No. You must have something. Do you have something? I can blow bubbles off my tongue. Like, do you have to have any special equipment or preparation or anything? Usually a six pack of beer will get me there. Okay, I got an IPA in the fridge. You need that? Like, you just, like what, like off the tip of your tongue or? You know, I was an altar boy in church and my brother Bill and I served together a lot. And we'd sit in the altar and the sermon would be going on. We'd sit back there and we'd start blowing spit bubbles off of our tongue. To entertain ourselves. Okay. So. So you can like create little bubbles off your tongue. I don't know if my saliva is the right condition. It's an important conversation. Alright. That's uh, I'm not sure that will get you on Saturday Night Live, but, um. By the way, did you see that 50 year anniversary show the other night? Parts of it? Yeah. That was awesome. It was pretty good. That was awesome. Yeah. There was a lot of neat behind the scenes to that. Oh, did you get 17? 17 right away too? Well, whatever you want me to do. Sure, we'll do that. Okay. Bye. How did you define success in your business or career? Like, what were you chasing? You know, I was, um, I was pretty, I don't think there's a single answer to that. I don't think, I think it's multifaceted. And I was pretty clear headed with myself. Um, first and foremost is, you gotta make money. Because if you don't make money in a business, the business doesn't survive. Yeah. You know, so you have to make money. You can never run out of cash. So I was pretty adamant about financial responsibility and financial success. And through that financial success, you create opportunities for so many people. And I, you know, I owned my business that I found, and I shared the equity in the business with a handful of people. More than a handful, a number of people that worked with me. How many people did you employ over the years, do you think? Oh my gosh, I don't, I'd say a thousand. Yeah, 500 at ICAT, more than that at E. W. Blanche. But with turnover and all that, oh yeah, I don't know. Thousands of people over the years bought groceries with your paychecks. Yeah. And put their kids through college and paid their mortgages. You know, you take that thing seriously. We had about 15 people, you know, who got rich. You know, because of, you know, having equity in the business and boy, did they deserve it? Yeah, they were tired. They worked hard and they were really talented and for quite a while without getting paid. Like they should have probably, you know, that's why you pay equity. Right? Usually they got paid well, too. You know, I think that's another thing. Ginger and I talk about this quite a bit that both of the businesses are the businesses that she and I have run. are almost always named, you know, one of the best places in the state to work. Yeah. You know, whether it's the business I ran in, in Boulder, a company called ICAT. It's, it's still considered one of the best places to work, so that was important. But I think that, um, You know, standards, you know, just getting things right, doing great stuff, really, really good stuff was really important to me, more important to me than the money, you know, it's like, can we take pride in what we're doing? And are we, are we creating a piece of art here, which is kind of a funny thing to say about a business, but yeah, but I did think about it that way. Um, and delivering great value to our customers, you know, that was, that was important. And transparency. I mean, that was, that was a cornerstone to our business that I was constantly having to raise capital for our business because it was very capital intensive. And one of my cornerstones was I would go to prospective partners and I'd say, here's where all the problems are. You know, the story, you know what we can do, you know what we've done, but here's where the, if there's risk there, here's the warts, here's what we screw up. And, um, it's amazing how, um, how, how meaningful that was in establishing partnerships. Number one and number two, it was a really effective way to raise capital. That's why he was so successful. I haven't met very many People that are way more big picture guy than I have that I am like I'm kind of a Biggest picture, but I'd like to be involved locally, but you definitely have that kind of 30, 000 foot view dialed in And I hope you're not right about Trump Yeah, you and me both right I'm just it's just a warning yeah, it's like the lights on pay attention Yeah, yeah, that's fair 25 and 10 Um, is your numbers, Ginger. And 10 is what's a hobby or skill you've always wanted to pick up but haven't? Oh, I know what that is. The harp? Yes, it's the harp. The first time I retired, I'm really bad at it. The first time I retired was 20 years ago, and I've always wanted to play the harp. I took classical piano lessons all my growing up years and can play the piano, although now I'm really rusty. But The woman who taught me was ancient. She, as a child, had taken from Paderewski, and it was severe classical music, and her daughter was a harpist. Her son was an organist, and I wanted to learn to play the harp, so Jack bought me a harp for my retirement, and I've had it 20 years now, and I just took my first lesson with Meredith who you had on your podcast. Yes, just a couple weeks ago. Yeah. And so my goal is to learn to play the harp. So is she going to do like Zoom harp lessons mostly with you, I guess? Because she's mostly a Scotlander. Yes. When she's in town, I want to see her. And she also, the first time taught me how to string and tune the harp, which is also very important. I imagine. Yeah. Well, I'm excited about that. We do. Like, I want to have you back in two years. Ah, I'll play a little piece for you. And we'll bring your harp in here, yeah. Maybe you and Meredith can come together when she's back. Oh yeah, I would not make her do that. Um, what was the other one? 25. 25, yeah. What's one thing on your bucket list that you're determined to accomplish? That's a good question. Um, one thing. Does it have to be an accomplishment or can it just be an experience? Well, it's an experience. Bucket list is kind of an experience. Well, going back to the first question. You don't have to start a new company or anything like that. I am determined to make Ginger and Vega work. Oh my gosh, I'm determined to make ginger and baker work. Oh my word. You know, and part of it is because what Jack said, we have always shared business success with the team that got us there and I can't share. The rewards of Ginger and Baker with my key management team because it's not there and once we get there, then they get that and that will be good for their lives and their careers and raising their kids and fulfilling their dreams. So that's really at the top of my list. Uh, but there, you know, there are other things that I want to do in life, but mostly I want to do things that matter. Yeah. I hope that keeps continuing for the rest of your journey. The, yeah, the winning question. Thanks, Ava. The winning question, I'm going to choose, Ginger's first answer, which was Meredith and the harp. Um, so, lucky winners, uh, contact us through Spotify, through LinkedIn, or through Instagram. And the first one we notice So Ginger won and I lost? No, just one of our lucky listeners wins for coming this far in the conversation. That's because I lost? Well, just because her conversation was so much more interesting. Like, cause Meredith was just on a few weeks ago. Like, yours were cool, it's fine, Jack. I want a replay. It's not a contest. Like, you had to have known when you met Ginger it's not a contest. Otherwise you would lose. Just kidding. Love you both. It's just the way we do it. It's fine. It's just fine. It's just because Meredith was just on the podcast. That's really why. Okay, fine. Okay, fine. I'm over it. Um, oh yeah. So it's, yeah, I, I started jumping into the faith family politics. Um, Talk to me about your faith perspective. Well, I, we've, we've, we've, we've said it a number of times to each other today. Um, we're just, you know, our foundation is just being 100 percent committed to doing the right thing no matter what. Hmm. Um, and that's a profound Because of? Faith. Like a big guy up there kind of thing? I, I, that's a really interesting way to think about it. I don't feel, I don't feel accountable to God. Okay. Um, I'm a child of God. Yeah. Um, um, I feel accountable to all the people around me. I feel accountable to my wife, to my children, to my community. It's a healthy perspective. Um, I, I, I do know that, you know, through studying the teachings of Jesus over the course of my life, he was profoundly committed to always doing the right thing. Yeah. And teaching people do the right thing no matter the cost. Yeah. Um, and. You know, I try, I try, I try, I try to practice that to the best of my ability, no matter the cost. And it's so seductive and so tempting to just round corners a little bit when it gets a little bit difficult. And that's when it's most important. So I think that's the foundation of my faith. Um, I've, I've been a Uh, a student of Jesus, you know, most of my life, I, I, I don't know the Bible. In a particular perspective? The New Testament mostly. No, but I mean, were you raised like Presbyterian or this or that? I was, I was raised. I was raised an Episcopalian. Oh, okay. My dad called it Catholic light. Yeah, that's what I've called it actually. I hate to say that. Which, um, which really didn't teach the teachings of Jesus that much. It was just more of a ceremony. Yeah. Um, and, and I think the teachings of Jesus are where. Where the rubber really hits the rose. And there are so many profound teachings, um, worth listening to and integrating into your life. So for you, like, the church is of less value than the teachings of Jesus? Dramatically less value. Okay. I find organized religion to be dangerous, and I really respect a lot of them. Yeah. Um, the Catholic Church disappoints me so much with its history over the last 35, 40 years and Yeah. The pedophiles, I mean, if they were American business, they would be out of business, they would not be permitted to exist today. And there's gotta be some consequences associated, they gotta clean their act up. Um, it frustrates me beyond belief. Hmm. Um, and I know that's not gonna be Yeah. Very pleasing for a lot of Catholics to hear, but I really don't care. I think most of them confess it and acknowledge it and they would probably say the same. Yeah. So, um, but that's, that's, Well, yeah, it certainly takes the teeth out of the, the Pope's. When the Pope says something, it's like, Okay, whatever, dude. Sorry, that's kind of rude, but it's a little bit like that to me when I see him come up with that. Well, it's another institution Yeah, they're corrupted. that unfortunately erodes Yeah. And so it's another part of this eroding of the things that you count on. And you know, I, I hope that they have That's where you both resonate a little bit, is that we need these institutions of community, of even media, of government, of Whatever the government is, it has to stand for something that people appreciate and respect. We are individually responsible and should be accountable to ourselves. To be part of what's right and contribute, but we do have to organize Yeah, into groups and methods, you know, to be able to do commerce, to support kind of standards and norms. And we do have norming, storming, we talk about that as a team, but as a town, as a state, as a nation, we need. organization to our ability to effectively give back to each other and to grow opportunity for others. And so institutions have a role. It doesn't mean they're omnipotent, but the erosion of institutions disables us from being productive and we need to, we need to count on them. Yeah, that's well put. Yeah, I like that as well. Um, anything else you want to tag on to that? Well, no, I just, you know, just the whole question of faith. I've got a very good friend, Johnny Square, who's the, um, chaplain for the CSU athletic department. Johnny and I played football. He's got a cool name too, Johnny Square. Isn't it great? Yeah. Reverend Johnny Square. Right. And that boy can preach, let me tell you. I believe it. He's really good. Um, but he's also, he studies, he's very thoughtful. And he believes in the power of prayer. Um, something that frankly I need to learn more about, the power of prayer. Um, I think a lot of people pray. I don't pray much. You know, I think good thoughts about people and care about people. But prayer is something I need to explore more. Sometimes high performing people are like, God bless all this hard work I'm doing. Yeah. Uh, you know, it happens. Yeah. Anyway, I think that, uh, you know, the Reverend Square and I are talking to each other a lot. I dig it. So there's a lot to live from and a lot to learn from. All right. Cheers, Reverend Square. Reverend Square. Um, family or politic, Jack? Would you care to enter into either of those short circles? Um, politic. You've got two, well, sorry. You want to go politic first? Sure. Politics is, um, politics is a profession. Yeah. There's no question. It's a career. Unfortunately, it's a career. Um, when the constitution was written 250 years ago, um, politics was, uh, it wasn't such a thing. It was, it was public service. Yeah. Um, people had a career. They were successful at their career. They went to the legislature, whether it was the local legislature or the federal legislature and they served and then they left and they went home, you know, and McConnell. He's one of the most amazing men. In my lifetime, I, and he pisses me off at times beyond belief, but he's one of the most amazing men I've, I've ever listened to. He is so thoughtful. And, and yet, how is it that we have an 80 something year old senator who's been in office for over 40 years and takes a little breaks once in a while? It's, it's absolutely wrong. Yeah. That's a career and it's corrupt. I mean, those guys attract so much money. Sure. Um, to their own political campaigns, to the campaigns of other people. They can help it almost. I mean, if you, if you, if you don't catch, if you don't kiss Mitch McConnell's ring in the Republican party, you ain't getting money. You know, the Republican committee and so that's corrupt. That's America's form of abject corruption. And so we, we, we, I just, I know it's true. I ran for Senate in 2016. Against who? Uh, well, I was in the primary, I was a Republican candidate in 2016. There were 17 people in Okay. In the field. I finished second out of a field of 17. It was my first walk into politics, but there was a guy by the name of Darrell Glenn, who ended up winning the primary, and he was just a little bit right of the till of the hun and he was a traditional MAGA candidate back then. And there were two or three of'em that were supposed to be running and. Two of them got knocked out and only Daryl was left standing. And so that's the politics in the state of Colorado. It's true across the country, but yeah, Colorado shows up for primaries, whether it's Democratic primaries or Republican primaries, primaries are really interesting things. It's the most radical people in those parties and God bless them. You know, they, they work, they vote, they give money. Yeah, their voice gets heard because they show up and everyone else sits home. Yeah, so you just I mean, it's all like all of life It's a participant sport But I would like to see you know, and all of these things require Constitutional changes, which is a huge huge lift as far as the like turn limits and different things like that term limits and campaign reform Yeah, is that is that the big things finance reform term limits? Is there? Other things that would help our democracy or republic from slipping back into this kind of huge deficit laden bureaucracy that we've been in? Well, your recent efforts have been around, uh, ranked voting and, you know, the two party system. Is it actually destroying the values that we all hold dear about everyone has a vote? But the two party system sets up this play that the only people you have to vote on, you know, are in this primary dynamic and would, would we be better served by having more choice? In terms of our candidates and a more free selection process that more people would choose to participate in. You know, that's a curious question. Yeah, it is important. I think that'll be back on the ballot. It lost in 2024. In Colorado. It did, but it lost by a small margin, mostly because it's complicated. Yeah, it's hard to understand. But I think that, um I mean, we'll go back to work at putting it back in the ballot again and see if we can't carry that across the line, because I think it would, it would level things out between the two party system that we've got. Well right now, like the Democratic Party obviously dominates the Colorado politic most places except for east of whatever the Mississippi is. Yeah. I mean, eastern Colorado in general, a little bit western slope, but mostly not the front range. Clearly. Yeah. Um, Yeah. I want to jump to family. You have two daughters? Uh, two daughters and a son. And a son? Right. Um, they're all probably 30s and up from now or 20s and up from now? I don't remember. Well, my son is 48. Okay. Um, so I was 20 2, 23 years old. Okay. I was 24 years old when my son was born. Alright. So I have a 48 year old son, 47 year old daughter, and 45 year old daughter. And how many grandkids do you have? Four grandkids. Okay. 21, 13, 6, and 5. Let's jump, let's jump to the grandkids, because we do a, uh, one word description. Usually of children, because most of my guests are like in their 40s, but it's fun on the teenager style. So, are you prepared for that? Yeah. Not really. Are you scared? So, like, name him, rank him, not rank him but put him to a kid and then give him one word description for me. The four grandkids. Let's see. Our oldest is twenty one years old, Kendall and Kendall is You don't have to rank them like an order, but yeah, yeah. Kendall's an artist. Kendall's an artist. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's well put. That's cool. Theater, voice, acting. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Kendall is an artist. There's some people that are just like naturally there. It's been her passion since she was two years old. She's been in plays her entire life. She loves it, has done really well. Yeah, really cool. Our grandson Mac is 13, and Mac is just magnificent. He's a magnificent, he's a great, great human being, and good athlete, and great student. Wise beyond his years. So much to be around. He knows more about football than his grandfather, Jack, which is the amazing thing. That's all I listened to with those two. Oh my word. He's a lot of fun. I like it. I like it. And then we have a six year old granddaughter, uh, Grayson and Grayson is just. She's just the love of my life. I mean, she's just wonderful. Your new favorite. Yeah, she's just wonderful. She's so much fun to be around. Her poppy and she have a special thing. Yeah, she's great. And then her brother, Luke, is a cannonball. Just an absolute cannonball. He's a kid. He's a kid that looks like he weighs 35 pounds and you pick him up and he's, he's as dense as magnesium. He's just, he's just thick beyond belief. You know, he's going to be a linebacker. He's got that mentality. I like it. Future linebacker at CSU. I dig it. Um, Local experience. That is our, uh, final segment. Do you remember what yours, did you, I don't think you could share one with me, Ginger. You were like, kind of like, I don't really have anything that crazy, but the, our podcast name is the Loco Experience Jack. And so normally the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share. is our closing segment. Do you have any like near death experiences or? Oh, I have a bunch of those. Oh, you do? Really? I have a bunch of those. Yes, I actually think I want to write a book about it because it's really, it's mind boggling. I've got quite a few too. Yeah, I know. I totaled way too many vehicles for one thing, but I was driving. So I was a freshman in college in Abilene, Texas, driving home for the holidays to Arkansas. And it was, uh. I don't know, 12 hour drive and I was driving by myself and I left school at the end of school on a Friday, I drove all night long and the sun was coming up the next morning and I was so sleepy and I went to sleep at the wheel of my car on an interstate and when I woke up, I was a foot from having a head on with an 18 wheeler and I don't know how I didn't roll the car, but I hit The median, I turned my steering wheel and I was going way too fast and I was about to have a head on with an 18 wheeler and you had crossed the median already. No. Well, this is the, the joy of the story is that I had come up behind a tow truck pulling the cab of an 18 wheeler. And I didn't know that in the moment, of course, I thought it was going to the headlines. Yes. So I was having a head on with an 18 wheeler and could have killed myself trying to get off the road, but thankfully I didn't. But I sat in the median and sobbed for a while to get myself together again. And that really sobered me about driving my driving experience, because I've always been way too fast. Jack would say I still am, but that was, uh, she's got, so you like woke up and you're almost ready to. Rear end a tow truck with Yes. But I don't know that in the moment. So that, to me was a heart stopper. All right. Jack, do you have a crazy experience to contend with that one? Well, other than the day I married my wife which was a great day, I, I, I remember the, the day we got married though, and it was time to join her at the altar. And, um, how choked up I became and I was, I was so surprised, like, what the hell is going on here? Yeah. I, you know, I just gotta, I've been like a cool guy forever. Yeah. You know, what is this all about? I think, you know, when my kids, uh, I told my kids at a very young age, I said, I'll take you anywhere you want to go in the world. When you turn 14, it's gotta be a third world country and no hotels. That was the deal. So it was an outward bound kind of an experience. And I took my son to Africa. Um, we spent five weeks in Africa and hiked over 600 miles. Um, I got him on top. We were almost stampeded by water Buffalo and almost killed and Took him to the top of the Neithi Gorge, and he climbed about 200 feet down the face with a guy that had climbed Mount McKinley, and I was like, man, you know, I'm gonna be in trouble when I get there. This is a little sketch. Took my, uh, oldest daughter to, um, eastern Europe right after Perestroika and Glasnost had taken place, and she really wanted to see what that was all about. And we experienced Russia, the Soviet Union then, firsthand. Oh, wow. Yep, that was a Yeah, it was an eye opening experience. Like in the Yeltsin years, virtually. Gorbachev and Yeltsin. That was a great, great experience. For her and for me. And my youngest I took to Ecuador. And we, um, hiked through the Andes for about two and a half weeks and hiked through the Amazon for about two and a half weeks. Yeah. One of my favorite stories there, she, we had, we had, we were in the, uh, we were on the Cocoa River in, um, in, In Ecuador, but it's right by Columbia and, uh, we could see the gunboats running up and down that were running drugs and that was an eye opener. And the skies opened up and it probably rained eight or ten inches in an hour. The skies just opened up and so the river rose and we were isolated on this little peninsula and we couldn't, you know, we were isolated. We couldn't get off. Well, we had to get off. And so, we waded across this peninsula and there were caiman and other really dangerous critters in this water. And, and just talking her into it, like you put the pack on top of your head, we got to go. Yeah. There's just no choice. There is another option. And seeing her muster that up and, and, and conquer that, you know, conquer the fear and get to the other side was, it was a terrific life experience. Yeah. Yeah. Ginger, um, any I wish we had two more hours, honestly, like, I feel like we really could spend plenty of time philosophizing. We have lots of philosophies, yeah. Yeah, we haven't even barely had, we've just been storytelling, not philosophizing, but it's already 5. 10, so I want to respect your time, but, um, maybe, like, is there anything that you'd like to share with, actually one of the segments I haven't touched on yet that we sometimes do is like advice for the next generation, and I think especially as a, a woman would, That became a leader before women leaders were popular. Um, do you have some, some thoughts into this space where we're at? Especially for ladies, uh, young Ava, even if you want to personalize it. Like, what do I do with my life? Like, uh, I'm here, I'm 20, I'm producing a podcast, I'm taking classes. But, like, how do I figure it out? Well, I'll tell you, you know, what I, what I tell And I do have the opportunity to speak at a lot of business schools or with women executives, and I still do some of that. And I have, I always say the same thing. Number one, uh, pick your boss, not your job. And especially, I think, for someone who may be more unusual in that role. So whether you're too young, or you're a minority, or you, you know, speak a different language, or you're not, you're not part of the standard cast. Mm. That very first. Job that those early job choices are very formative. So you can imagine that if You don't fit in and your boss doesn't really want you and you're treated badly when you're brand new You don't know if it's about you or if it's a situation and so your self esteem your confidence your courageousness your ability to Take risk can get severely altered very young in your career because you work for the wrong person, a jerk, an uninformed person, you know, maybe someone who was nice, but didn't, didn't know how to be a good coach. And so I had the benefit of working for an amazing. Man, early in my career, and actually, I think I could give you a list of nine incredible. I never worked for a woman, only men, but the great experiences, the tough feedback, the coaching I got and the courage they demonstrated helping me grow when I was unusual and didn't fit and there weren't any, and I was the only, and I was the first and all the things that get in the way of performance, uh, you know, having a good boss. made all the difference. And I have 20 stories someday when we have nothing else to talk about, I'll tell you about some things that courageous men did that demonstrated to me what true leadership looks like, and also called me to be all that I could be because they had taken a risk on me. And so that's one piece of advice, which is pick your boss, not your job, especially when you're young, but I'd say your whole life, your boss. Has disproportionate influence on you and all the HR research in the world says that you can work for a great company But if your boss is a jerk, you still have a terrible experience Right, right. So that's important the second thing is we just had this conversation with a young man who was sitting at the bar at the cash with his mom and He doesn't know what he wanted to do and he wanted to talk to Jack about insurance and then he's doing something else and I Said of course, you don't know what you want to do. How could you? You've never done it. You haven't done anything. Yeah, you haven't done anything except go to school and do what you were told to do. So now you're of your own free will, but you don't know what to do. Of course you don't go do something, whether it's a good experience or a bad, a good boss or a bad take notes, learn from it. What did I love? What motivated me? What did I hate? What was I good at? What did I did not know, but I'm interested in and then do another thing and then do another thing and then do another thing and somewhere along the way, you will learn what you are and what you're made of and what you're capable of and that will be you and then you will apply it to maybe 100 more things. So my dad worked for the post office after the military accumulated service of what 43 years. That's what my dad did. I've had 14 jobs. I think the last time I counted the next generation will have 40 and so learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, say yes, do it, learn from it and move on. And I think if you Try to work for a good person and you are in a learning mode. The sky's the limit. Period. Go do it. I dig that. Thank you. Jack, anything to append the closing here? No, I think what Ginger said, you know, we're pretty much aligned there. I preach to people who ask me for advice when they're young, you know, pick your boss, pick your job. Um, but I think more than anything, this generation in particular, you know, we always said figure out what you love to do and then go find a way to make a living at it. It's not that simple. It's just, as Ginger was saying, go try things and then figure out what you like. Oh, I really like reinsurance. It's like, what? Right. Go get a life. Yeah. Never would have heard about that. Right. It was spectacular, the relationships, but I thoroughly, I was intellectually stimulated. I love the competitiveness of it. It was just a great career. So go try things and find something you really like and then commit to it. Don't be so damn caught up in this idea of having a balanced life. A balanced life is pretty bloody boring. Um, you know, balanced life doesn't mean you can't work 48 hours straight and never go to bed and not see your family for two days. But then you take time away from your job and you balance your life by immersing yourself in your family to make up for it. But don't be afraid to immerse yourself in something, commit to it, and get exhausted. You know, be exhausted because of what you're doing. And, and learn from it. It is so much fun to immerse yourself in something. Yeah. You learn so much. We are a world of, uh, shallow people in some ways. And so that Perseverance and work hard. Peyton Manning said something, um, that caught my attention a number of years ago. He said it takes you about 10, 000 hours to learn how to be a quarterback in the NFL. And he said after about 15, 000 hours. You start to change the game. I thought, oh, how much fun is that? You know, that's, that's really something. I used to tell people for years that after five years in banking, because I was a small business banker, was my background, that I thought I was pretty good at it. And then after ten years in banking, I was like, oh, damn, I was so not good at it after five years. And, uh, you know, that's part of the journey. More to learn. Recognize where you've been. And I'm not as smart as you guys, so it was harder for me. Yeah, right. I appreciate you guys being here. We appreciate you too. This is a great program. Well, thank you. Thanks for the work. Appreciate you much. Godspeed. Thanks, Kurt. Yeah.