EXPERIENCE 211 | Following the call into new chapters - Pete Gazlay - Founder and Former Owner of Total Facility Care - and our newest LoCo Facilitator!

I met Pete Gazlay late in my banking career, as one of my colleagues was pursuing a banking relationship with the owner of a young but rapidly growing janitorial company - Total Facility Care.  Pete founded the business in 2010, after departure from a fast-growing middle-market company in the same industry.  

At the start, Pete was a one-man team, selling janitorial services during the day - and executing the cleanings at night!  They grew steadily throughout though, and sold in April of 2023 with a team size of around 150 and a significant market share in both the general janitorial space as well as specialized tech and medical clean room janitorial.  

We spend a good amount of time talking about business principles in this episode - relationship selling, margins and bidding, account management, hiring entry-level workers during a labor shortage - and finding the right time and manner of exit.  And, we talked about life after exit - community engagements, a recent mission trip to Tanzania, and Pete’s why in joining the team as a LoCo Facilitator.  We’re so glad to have him on the team, and I know you’ll enjoy - as I did - my conversation with Pete Gazlay.

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I met Pete Gly late in my banking career as one of my colleagues was pursuing a banking relationship with the owner of a young, but rapidly growing janitorial company. Total facility care. Pete founded the business in 2010 after departure from a fast growing middle market company in the same industry. At the start, Pete was a one man team selling janitorial services during the day and executing the cleanings at night. They grew steadily throughout though, and sold in April of 2023 with a team size of around 150 and a significant market share in both the general janitorial space, as well as the specialized tech and medical clean room janitorial. We spent a good amount of time talking about business principles in this episode, relationship selling, margins and bidding, account management, hiring entry level workers during a labor shortage, and finding the right time and manner of exit. And we talked about life after exit. Community engagements, a recent mission trip to Tanzania, and Pete's why in joining the team as a local facilitator. We're so glad to have him on the team, and I know you'll enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Pete Gasley. Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is Pete Gasley and Pete is the founder and former owner of Um, Total Facility Care and that was a mostly commercial janitorial service here kind of across Northern Colorado. Is that right? Yeah. 100 percent commercial. Okay. Um, and I guess, why don't you talk to me first about like, what was the, the, company scale, size, your maybe a little bit about your team and structure at the time that you departed. Sure. Um, so we, um, 100 percent commercial. We, um, we're running from Fort Collins down to, um, Longmont. Okay. And I'm trying to think if we were further south then, um, actually when I fully departed, we were into the metro area. Oh, so you stayed on for a while. Yep. After the, after the transaction and then Loveland over to Greeley. Um, and we actually expanded a little bit that last year, um, up into Wyoming and Nebraska as well. Okay. So. So mostly Larimer Weld and, and kind of just started to cross some of the lines. We were in Boulder County for a long time and Boulder got really difficult, um, hiring wise, um, when houses are a million dollars. Yeah. Hard to find people to work for. Entry level workers aren't really abundant. So. That makes sense. It was a challenging environment down there. Yeah. Yeah. I don't doubt it. It was a challenging environment. Um, and, and. Just janitorial. Did you have a spectrum of services for janitorial? We'd love doing the technical stuff, clean rooms and medical stuff, all those kinds of things. So fancy janitorial was a fancy part of your differentiation, if you will. And then we had a full blown, uh, maintenance department. So, um, that was unfortunately always our. Best kept secret. And those are never good in business. Fair enough. Like doing all their HVAC stuff, boilers, whatever like that? Yeah, more kind of the minor handyman stuff. And then HVAC and some of the more technical stuff. We could manage it for clients and, uh, but we'd outsource it to the pros in that area. Makes sense. Okay. Um, and did you just break it down by, Like divisions and crews or like, talk to me about kind of that, the, the, the dynamics of managing. Cause it's mostly, I imagine you've probably got 10 or 20 office people and everybody else is cleaning. Yeah. Um, so we had about 150 people working for us, um, you know, at the peak of it. And, um, so it was me, I had a vice president, we had. Um, three, um, operations managers, one specialized in, um, carpets, floors, maintenance, all those kind of semi, um, skilled, and I would say really skilled things to do all that stuff right. Yeah. You have to know what you're doing. Okay. And then the other two managed, um, geography. So we had a four columns operations manager. That was our biggest concentration. And then we had another one that ran Greeley, Loveland, Windsor. And that was kind of, or see the general cleaning and then calling the flooring people as necessary. Yeah, exactly. And then, um, so that was kind of daytime operations. We had three people in the office, HR manager, um, front desk person that we called creator of first impressions. Okay. Um, because they were answering the phone or somebody comes into the office, they set the tone, you know, for who we are and, um, and then we had an office administrator. And, um, and I actually, I guess four, cause my wife, um, was always involved in the business and, um, she would do the accounting and bookkeeping and those kinds of things back of the house kind of stuff. Yeah. And then our big management structure was actually at night cause that's when our folks worked. Oh, right. Um, so. You know, you think about it's commercial. So we're coming in after businesses closed. Most of our people are reporting between five and, you know, seven o'clock at night for work out to their buildings and those kind of things. So again, night managers in those areas and then a bunch of leads. Um, and we try to keep. lead bandwidth we tried to keep to five to ten people. Okay. Um, just so, you know, we want that intimate kind of personal connection. And are they going out in groups of twos and fours in like vans and cars and different things? No, typically people are, so leads were, they had an area and they were, you know, driving around in their area. But typically Um, and then, you know, a line level employee would come into the office to be hired, and then they'd never see the office again. Oh, really? They would just show up on location? They're gonna report to work at their location, hopefully a building near, you know, where they lived, and those kinds of things. Just one or maybe two or three. Or it might be a route of, you know, with smaller buildings in an area. Right. Kind of try to geographically. Office parks and things like that, you clump them together. Yeah, densify them. Okay. You know, some buildings, um, like we took care of, and they still are, um, UC Harmony campus. And so. You've got, you know, a dozen people in that building. So they're all reporting in a certain time and you've got a lead over that building and, you know, a little different operations. Yeah, I guess everything's kind of a custom fit to the facility, to the, the acreage, the floor space, the needs of the client. Um, yeah, it's a hundred percent custom, actually, every job. I mean, we have, you know, some standard things we do, right, but. When you think about a building, they're all, they all have similar things, right? They've got office space, and restrooms, and a common area, and conference rooms, and all of those kinds of things. But, um, Are they one story or are they 10 stories? Are they, um, you know, really high end finishes? Or is it like cement floors and, you know, um, a manufacturing environment or something like that, right? So, or is it a, is it a manufacturing clean room and it has, you know, very high specs? Or it's a surgical operating room and it has to be sterilized every night? So, um, you know, just oftentimes people are like, well, how much does it cost? It says, well, it depends, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm developing the systems so that you can. Consistently win business and consistently make profit from those clients and know which ones you're making money on, which ones you're not, stuff like that seems like part of the puzzle. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, and that's evolution of a business and, and a business owner too, you know, dialing those things in, right? You think you're good. And then all of a sudden it's like, huh, this isn't quite working. We've got to resolve this problem. Lost quite a bit of money on this last quarter. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, uh, like, do you want to talk about the exit kind of pathway before we zoom back or maybe we should just even jump back to the founding years? Is that a better evolution? Sure, yeah, wherever way you want to go. I think let's do that. Okay, back to the beginning. Yeah, we won't, yeah, not back, we'll jump all the way in the time machine to first grade or something. And I know you worked in kind of corporate janitorial services before. Yeah. But I want to just jump back to like when you leapt out of that realm. Yeah, maybe tell me the conditions on the ground, what, what caused that leap and how well capitalized were you? How, how long had you been working on your plan? All that kind of good stuff. Sure. Um, so I'll go back maybe once. How did I get into the corporate world? Sure. Um, I had been a police officer in Fort Collins and, uh, was the youngest guy, uh, promoted in about 20 years back in the day. And this is, man, when was I promoted? That was 1992. So it was a long time ago. Um, and, and really had a lot of fun. Fort Collins is an innovative department and really good people, I think even to this day, but I. Um, and they let, let me do a lot of fun stuff. Um, we, a partner and I, we started the District 1 Policing in downtown that's still there in Old Town. Um, did a lot of problem solving policing, community policing, some really fun stuff. But I knew that I was like a square peg in a round hole and I wasn't, I was on a good fast track, but I was gonna be Um, just bashing head with bureaucrats and lawyers and politicians and all of that. It's like, this is not going to be good. Can you talk about why? Was it kind of out of the box thinking or what? Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not the typical kind of a guy I know. I grew up in an entrepreneur's family. Okay. So I'm not the typical, like I wanted to be a cop from being five years old. Right. It was, um, I fell into it. It was, um, I was going to CSU. I was working at toddy's grocery store, which is. Over at Drake and Lemay, is now. It was still there when I moved to town. Yeah, um, well you know a lot of new people don't know where that is. It's true, it's true. And um, there's a job in the Collegian for student police officers. And I thought, Oh, that, that'll look good on a business resume. That's what I was going to school for. And it paid 25 cents an hour more than the grocery store. And that was going to take me a lot more entertaining. Right. And it was going to take me a couple more years to probably make that money. I'm like, okay, I'll do that. Um, and, um, newly married and, um, started that job. We'd been married about a year and we found out we were pregnant and, uh, that messed up the whole five year plan of college of, you know, get, get a degree, start a business or get a job or whatever it was. And so I had to get a job and, uh, through good old networking, I, I got onto Fort Collins and, uh, and had a great career there, but it wasn't, it was never my dream. Yeah. So. You were an entrepreneur at heart. Right. More. And I was working on, I was always, other people were working on like degrees in public administration. I was working on my business degree. Right. When I finished up. I was able to. Cram that four year degree into 14 years. Did you work with Jason Santos Stefano, by chance? No. He was my neighbor a few doors down, uh, for a while. Yeah, man, I've been gone since, uh, since 1985. I've been gone since 1998. So I've been gone longer than I was there by, uh, by log time. So, uh, so I leaped out of that and I went into, um, uh, leadership training, management, some motivational stuff. One of my childhood heroes was a Zig Ziglar. Okay. I was like, I'm going to be the next one of those. Yeah. And, uh, that is a brutal industry. Totally. If you're, if you're not famous or you haven't done some, you know, Olympic feet or climb Mount Everest or something like that. So I had a lot of fun doing that for three years and, uh, but it was traveling. And you were part of the team or you were kind of going solo. Yeah. I had my own company. That's an interesting choice for a young dad. Yeah. That's what my wife thought too, after a couple of years. So, and again, you know, I, I left without having, um, I had a lot of confidence in. Leadership and management training. And I'd been doing a lot of speaking in my role with the city. Um, but I didn't have any clients. So that's tip number one, have some clients before you leap. That's always a good, good, um, so it was, it was tough, but it was going pretty good. I, um, I got a gig at career track, um, which was out of Boulder. They did the one day seminar things and, um, and they were really kind of cutting edge. And then. Um, I had, I had worked with them and I was getting my own clients a lot in the public sector and policing and whatnot. Um, And they got bought by Fred Pryor and it was, it was like a hostile takeover. They basically, their career track was out of Boulder. They had these TV studios and all this creative, they fired all of those people. The only ones they kept were their speakers. And then they cut our pay by like 60%. It's like, you know, it takes a little more to get me on the road than this. You're, you're not a client of mine anymore. And, um, so then we were just wrestling with, like, our kids were kind of junior high age. I was like, I needed to be home. I was traveling a lot. I really didn't know that much about this chapter in your history. So timing was perfect. Two thousand dot com bubble burst. Oh, I need to get a job. So I put out probably 80 resumes and nothing. And, um, I got a call one afternoon and they said, uh, It's this company. I'm like, okay, what do you guys do? I didn't recognize the name. Yeah, and uh, like, uh, we're, uh, we're a cleaning company. I'm like, great, fat, sweaty guy, wife, Peter t shirt, cigar stub, the corner. This cannot be good. Right. But I didn't have any other prospects. So I went to the interview, um, after kind of looking them up a little bit and to see if they were legit. And not only they were legit, but they were, uh, Um, at the time they're doing HP and Agilent out on Harmony and, um, they had about 1, 500 employees doing about 52 million a year. Oh, dang. And it was like, they've got like a really innovative way. Like a shop out of Denver or something? They were out of Sacramento, California. So kind of focused in the tech space in general. In the tech space, yep. And that would go to a lot of pharmaceutical stuff in the years to come. So, I think they were in like five states when I got hired. I'm like, I don't know anything about your industry. Like, well, we need somebody to teach these 25 year olds how to manage on these Fortune 500 campuses. I'm like, okay, I can do that. Right. And I need to learn the industry. And so, so I did that for nine years. Um, I didn't have to travel till our kids were out of high school and then, Kind of, I, I had moved up in the organization. Yeah. Well then travel would be kind of fun.'cause you hadn't done that fun in your life. Probably. Yeah. So, um, I don't know about the fun part. Business travel's fun at the beginning, but Right. The last three years I was there, I was traveling. Um, I'd leave on Monday, get home on Friday. Ooh. Um, half a day Saturday catch up and a couple hours on Sunday to get ready to go. Um, I did that 50 weeks a year. Oof. Um, and for some weird reason, my wife wanted to go on vacation, um, when I had time off, so I was gone every week. Yeah. Um, yeah. House projects take a while. they take a long time. Um, that's where you learn to delegate to somebody that knows what they're doing. Yeah. You get a favorite hand again. For sure. So, um, so it was an amazing experience. I mean, when, when I left we were, um, we were in 44 states, Canada. Oh wow. Costa Rica. Um, I was in charge of environmental health and safety and customer service. Okay. So I dealt with all the problems. Yeah. Yeah. It was that job title. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, but I mean, I have That allows you to also be a understander of all the problems. Exactly. And I was, I mean, I was in, um, you know, if, if at that time you would name a fortune 100 or two 50 country. Um, company, I was probably in their global or world headquarters and we were taking care of them, you know, I mean, that's, it was, it was pretty amazing. You were dominating the industry almost. We were and, and the guy that I, What was the firm? Um, yeah, it was SBM site services. The guy that I worked for. was a great American entrepreneur, still is, and um, we didn't, we didn't do that through acquisition, that was all organic growth. Wow. Which is really pretty crazy. Like they used to do it that way, but. Yeah, but it was, you know, it was, um. What a neat thing. I mean, you, you already joined a pretty sophisticated company, but how many, Yeah. How many revenues and employees by the time you. Uh, we were doing about 240 million and um, we had over 6, 000 employees. So, yeah, it was, so, I mean, it was, um, I got my PhD in business working, you know, in that company. And what did the leadership team of that? F company look like, like were there. Oh, it was complex. A C-suite and then a bunch of directors or Yeah. A C-suite. Um, I was one of the directors and, um, and then, you know, kind of vast regional and then area down the site management. Yeah. And our, so like our typical client, we wouldn't go into a new market unless, um, we could grab a million square foot building or more. Okay. So large corporate campuses. Yep. And then once we were in the market, we would do. some smaller things, smaller things being half a million square feet or 600, 000. Yeah. Sometimes the 200, 000 was too small for us to manage just with our system. There was, you know, we had a sweet spot and, um, so some of the smaller stuff was tougher to manage. Yeah. Um, so it was really fun. And, but it was time for me to go. Would they have not allowed you to travel less or have a different role? They would have, but, um, the owner and I just, we got to a place where we just couldn't work together anymore. So when, when you start your day every day with, you know, these series of F bombs and why isn't this person doing this and this, it just. It was wearing on my soul, I guess is the best way to put it, so. Was that the entrepreneur that built it too? Yeah. Okay. Yep. Driven, you know, super driven guy. Yeah. Um, and. Learned a lot? Yeah. Oh, I learned everything from him about the industry and a ton about business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, on, on both good and bad, right? Right. Well, I mean, it's, it's nice to learn from. other people's mistakes and failures instead of absolutely repeating them yourself right away. You know, I mean, they're still in business. He's massively successful. Um, you know, we just had kind of different thoughts about how to, to do some things. So did you, did you have a plan? Like you were crafting a plan to what your escape thing was or one day after too many F bombs, you were like, you know what? Yeah, it was a, yeah, it was a, I would say a frustrating parting for both of us. And it's like, okay. And so, so I left and I, I looked for some jobs, you know, and, um, at that time we had our first grandchild and, um, the jobs that I, Um, what's qualified for and like one was in Racine, Wisconsin, which is, and I wouldn't have to travel. So that was one of my criteria not to travel, but it was in Racine, Wisconsin. So both days of the year, it's nice there. It's nice. But we're just talking about winter here, right? Right. Just like your home. Yeah. It's a little better with. You know, it's right off the Great Lakes and all of that. And then, um, another serious one was down in Houston, Texas. Um, I'd have to live in Houston and travel. So I was like, okay, no, that's, that's a double. Almost as bad as hotline. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you know what? I really like this industry and there's nothing like this locally. Nobody's doing it this way. And, um, I'd been involved in a lot of big deals. And who was the big player? In the industry before in here locally. Yeah Porter Industries. Okay. Yeah I was a long time they they had been around Um, gosh, I guess the 30 years they, they went under when they were almost 40 years old. Oh, is that right? Sad, sad story. Yeah. Um, you'll have to call somebody else for that one. Well, it probably has a lot to do with your story. They gave us a lot of customers. I'll just say that. I remember our bank actually had used Porter Industries when I first moved to town. Oh yeah. I mean, they were huge. Well, and then they got. Like annoyed with the service and they instead hired one of our, one of my old friends, one of our employees to clean the bank on weekends, or whatever it was, I think it was just once a week kind of thing, and it was like, for her it was great dough and the bank was cleaner than ever. Right. Yeah, because she's got to be there, right? Right. Kurt's talking to me in the break room again about his desk, I don't know. Yeah, there's definitely plenty of accountability in that circumstance. Right. So, so anyway, so there was a, it was a soft market in that regard. I think so, but Porter was a, um, I mean they were the 800 pound gorilla in the local market here. They had, I think. I think they had 250 or 300 employees, you know, when we started facility care. So, so again, you know, I didn't learn anything from speaking. So 2010, we start total facility care, no clients, no employees. Um, you know, and I, I'm thinking, Hey, I'm a pretty good salesperson. I'm just, I just, uh, I'm letting all these corporate, right. I mean, Intel was one of our clients. I, the year before I had taken them from 25 to 35 million, you know, um, and it turns out that's a negotiation. It wasn't really sales. Um, and then, um, Genentech out in California, I just helped close that deal. It was a 20 million. Well, turns out none of that is sales. Like that's coming in the boardroom later and like closing the deal. That's totally different. And it's like, well, crud. I got to pick up the phone and call somebody. And were you trying to sell to some of these, things? Um, yeah, I mean, I, anybody that I was kind of like, I just need a client, right? So, um, but I imagine talking to somebody that kind of corporate office sphere is way different than talking to, you know, Joe, the Napa store. Yeah. Clean to the banks or whatever. Ten years that I was in that corporate environment, that, that whole thing changed. So. In the day when, well, they hired me, they had picked up HP here. HP was starting to consolidate regionally, but. When SBM got the first account in Roseville, California, they just like knocked on the door at the site and the site manager could decide. Well, by the time I left, um, we had, with Hewlett Packard, we had all of North America, including Canada. I don't know if they, I think they had some manufacturing in Mexico we didn't do, but then we had Central America, Costa Rica and stuff. Yeah, just super bonded relationships. And they were that. Now about a year after I left, um, year two, they lost, they, they had all the Americas and they were going for all of that and HP put it out to bid and, um, a company out of Europe that had Europe and Asia bid on the globe. And I think SBM didn't bid on that big of a piece. Right. Uh, we'll take you. And if you, you know, if you save a penny, a square foot over how many bazillion square foot they have, it's actually real money. Um, and so, you know, so that's, so they lose that big chunk of revenue as they lost it. Um, you know, it was at that point they were big enough that, you know, you feel it, but it wasn't catastrophic. It didn't break the whole, you know, they were probably still a top 10 client, but for years and years they'd been the number one client. So the good news was they had grown and diversified and yeah. All of that. So, so yeah, so I entered the market and I put some great marketing collateral together, I thought, um, and the market will fly a folder and, you know, one sheets on office cleaning and, you know, the technical stuff and medical clean and all these different things. Right. Do you differentiate yourself? Like as far as a brand and stuff, I mean, your brand was Total Facility Care I assume. It was Total Facility Care. Yeah, I hired an idiot as the first, um Graphic designer. Do you want to name this person? Yeah, it was me. Oh, okay. Um, so, terrible colors, like the total facility care was a T with, you know, all the way across the thing and yeah, it was, it was terrible. So, but I didn't have any money, but I had time. Right. Um, so I designed that, designed my first website, you know, all of that stuff. Not to ask a too personal question, but how come you didn't have any money? It seemed like you had this kind of high profile director level job. All the pursuits of raising kids and having houses and a spouse that didn't work. I mean, I had a great six figure salary and we were spending it, you know, like most people. Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I mean, we probably had, we had six months of savings and I actually negotiated a severance out of SDM. Had a decent 401k probably. Yeah. But otherwise, like, spendable cash to start this business and hire somebody to clean. Yeah, I mean, we, we started it on 10, 000. I mean, it is, you know. Okay. And 80 of that went to buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee, because I'd been driving a company car for 10 years, you know. So we, we owned one car, and it's like, well, we gotta have a second one. Yeah, yeah, interesting. So Isn't it an interesting thing how Yeah. Like things can change so quickly in a financial picture and you, and you can just pivot and adjust. Right. And, and manage through, you had a six month severance or a three month severance or? Yeah, we had a six month severance from SPM and then, you know, we had some money in the bank, so it's not like we were an immediate crisis. Right. Which was great.'cause I also just took a few weeks just to like decompress, not make a decision. Yeah. Right. And um, you know. Walked the crap out of my dog back then and worked out and just did some stuff, you know, for me. Reflecting back, how, what do you think, if you, if you had planned for six months or a year and saved 25, 000 to start with instead, how do you think, and had a business plan all ready to go and maybe a professional branding. Do you think your Acceleration would have been faster if you did that? Or are you glad for the way it happened? Like, kind of learned everything because you kind of bootstrapped it from the real bottom? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm glad for everything that happened. Yeah. I think, um, there, there's a famous expression, I forget who said it, but you know, a man with money to burn will always find someone to light the fire. And, um, so I think that's true, you know, as rough as the first year was, um, when we did have some cash flow in the second year, then I could hire a good graphic designer. I could, you know, but I knew more of what I wanted at that time. So I could have spent the money for sure, but. And, you know, having to scrap and do that a little bit was, was important as well worth that extra 20 grand maybe. So I mean, I did, I did the old thing, right? I mean, nobody, do you remember your first client? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So thankful for them. It was, um, Colorado central water district over in Greeley. Okay. And, um, And then our, our first client in Fort Collins was Harmony Laser Center. And then our first client in Loveland was door security serve, um, systems. So, and they were all within about a week of each other. Oh, nice. It took me five months to get that first client. So you, so closing these multi million dollar deals and you landed one in each market, so now you got to run this big circuit. Absolutely. Yeah. And then about a month later, I landed one in Boulder. Oh, so yeah. So I mean, it was just. It was, um, it was wonderful, but Did you drop the Cherokee in favor of something with better gas mileage? Oh, no. I mean, I, I drove that Cherokee a long time. Um, probably the first, gosh, I don't know, five years of the business. And we put some miles on that baby for sure. And did you hire help to clean with you, like, from the time that you got your first client? Yeah. That wasn't, that wasn't the business plan. So I did do a business plan. I worked with, uh, you know, the small business development center and wrote out a plan. And, um, honestly, the plan was okay. The best part that I got out of that was actually writing the financial pro forma. And I, you know, you wrote it. It's like, Oh, look, I go broke right there. Um, I need to not do that right there. So if people are thinking about starting, right, write out that pro forma. Yeah. Cashflow plan especially. Absolutely. Because you can, yeah. you can grow too fast and grow yourself out of business. Um, if you're not careful in there. So yeah. So the, the plan from the beginning was, um, get a client, clean them at night and do the business stuff in the daytime. So I was, I was the first and, um, last employee at the beginning of the company. And I would literally go do all the business stuff, the after hours, all of that. And then I would go clean. That's the nice thing about, uh, You know, having the, the, the cleaning shift at night, you can, you know, you're not, other than the awkward encounters with your client, Oh, I didn't know you'd be here tonight. Yeah. My, you know, my person didn't show up, right. Just me tonight. Um, so, and then, I don't know, a few months in, I hired, I had a couple, by the end of the year, we had a couple of part time. employees. And, um, that first year we billed, uh, 59, 000 and, um, we took home about 2, 000 of that. So it was not paying any bills. Um, at that time. Well, but you had revenue, so you had to flow in a little bit. Well, and I have an amazing wife. And so she, um, probably shortly after, she, oh, for sure. And so I'm the entrepreneur and she's not, and you know, it was, Not happiness, I would say around that. But she's like, you know, and I think I'm going to go get a job. My God, no, you don't need to do that. Cause you know, I'm an entrepreneur. It's all going to work out. Right. Well, the kids are out of school and stuff already too. Yeah. We were empty nesters. Yeah. Um, and she's like, no, I'm going to get a job and she did. She got a job up at PVH and, uh, and she worked at UCH. first five years that we had the business and it was great. You know, we got, it wasn't, it's not like she was highly compensated, but yeah, we had some money coming in and we had health insurance and you know, it just smoothed things. Hopefully it's connected to the people who do the cleaning for UCH and PBH. Um, I don't think she ever did, but I had, I had other, we did a lot of work for UCH and they're still doing a lot of work for UCH. They were great clients for us. So, um, like when does it really start to, to grow, um, rapidly or did it right from the start? Was it a, was it a steep growth from the start? Yeah. So that next year, like we doubled in revenue and I think we doubled in revenue every, every year. Yeah. 240. Um, you know, I think we jumped from one 20 to three something. Okay. I mean, it was rolling pretty good, right? And then, um, I'm trying to think. You know, I kind of, um, Uh, when did you start exactly? Uh, 2010. 2010, okay, so coming by 2013, 2014 is probably, probably about 12, 13 is when you and I first got acquainted. Yeah. Well, whenever you were with the bank there. Well, I left banking in the fall of 2013. Okay. Yeah. And so it had to have been 2012. Right. Because it wasn't like right as I think I met the bank president, Doug. Yep, yep. Um, you know, some chamber stuff. And we did Harmony Laser was our first client. Okay. They were right behind you guys there. Oh yeah. I'm like, I gotta get this bank. It's like right here. We're driving by and never pay, right? Did you get it? No, I don't think we ever got that bank. It's just the way it works out. Yeah, yeah. Sure enough. You know, the fun part, though, about those first clients was I was massively loyal to them because I so appreciated their taking a chance on me, right? And so we serviced the heck out of them. And, um, they were, um, they were all clients up to, um, when we transitioned. So we kept them that whole time. We took great care of them. And, you know, so that's kind of a cool thing. My, uh, I've probably told this story on the podcast before, but my dad went to seven banks before He found a banker that would give him a farm loan, help him out to put the first crop in. Um, and'cause he was a motorcycle mechanic, but moonlighting as a farmer. Oh yeah. And a, and a and a and he had built a shop to do wrenching on a side, you know, so he was a 24 hour guy too. Just about right. Oh man. Um, but, uh. It was what was First Bank and then became U. S. Bank. Oh, okay, yeah. And he, like, eventually he became, like, one of the more well to do farmers in the whole region. And First Bank was not really good at farm banking really anymore. And, uh, but he just was loyal to them, despite a lot of bankers being like, We can save you, you know, this much on this and that. Right. And he's like, you know, that's They took a chance on me when I was nothing, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Everybody wants my business now that I'm So I like to hear those stories of loyalty like that. So that's awesome. Um, and so then from there, it's kind of just a slow build of the, of the machine, right? Like not absolutely not putting too much overhead onto the. The cleaning crews, um, and recognizing kind of where the, where the revenues come from and, and what the expenditures are around that. What's the, like it's, it's a service business, right? So that the cleaning materials and supplies and stuff is probably 10 percent or something. And then mostly it's wages. Yeah, I mean, wages is your big expense. That's like 75, 80 percent a year. Yeah, that, I mean, that's the big expense for sure. For six years at least, yeah. And, uh, you know, you're buying equipment, um, when you, when you're going into a building, and, you know, it's typical life there? Yeah, I typically would leave it there. Okay, okay. Um, you know, in the early days, um, again, I was just scrapping, so. You'd lug them back and forth around. Like, yeah, do you throw all your equipment in the trunk of your car? And, and I expected every employee to do that. What's the matter with that, you know? You don't want a floor waxing machine. Right. And then, you know, and I hired a, I hired a manager, he's like, you know, maybe we should stop this. So now I got to buy all this equipment for these buildings. And, you know, it's just like, it's like, okay, you're right. Yeah. We should do this. Let's make it easier on our team here. Lugging these things around, but we, again, we did some things. I learned, I had such great opportunity. I, I was at SBM. I was able to talk to all the top. manufacturers in our industry, all the chemical makers, all that stuff. So, um, we, I mean, I bought a mop bucket. You've seen mop buckets, right? They're yellow. They got a string mop in them. That's not what we used from the get go to chamber mop bucket that had a microfiber mop that's flat. And guess what? I'm not, I mean, go into any. Um, well, bank restroom, except for one total facility care takes care of, um, or, you know, fast food restaurant or gas station and look at the baseboard in the restroom and you're going to see black mop slop that high on there. Well, microfiber mops, quarter of an inch tall. You don't have that. So, it's a labor saver, it's easier on their back, you don't have to go back and clean stuff. Um, you can launder the mop heads easily. And it's more clean in general. It's more clean because we had two chambers. That two chamber is so much different. Clean water on one side, dirty water on another. What a concept. Right? Versus putting, you know, the dirty mop, I haven't changed it in a month. By the end of the bucket, the water looks rough. On the first one, when you dip it in. Totally. You know, so. And then, you know, green chemistry and microfiber towels and stuff that, you know, Yeah, microfiber towel with a spray of water will get a lot of surfaces really clean. Yeah, in fact, in Europe, they really, that's kind of what they do. So, um, and we, we had green chemicals, color coded towels. So, you know, the one, so in any larger building, what's in between the two restrooms there when you come out? The water fountain. Water fountain, right. So, the janitor's coming out of the restroom, cleaning the water fountain, going to the next one. Where was that towel before it was on the drinking tray? So we color coded them so you knew which ones were cleaning toilets and which ones were cleaning other things and all of that. So, just, you know, simple stuff, but we had pretty Um, you know, HEPA filter vacuums, um, so you're not kicking all the dirt back up in the air that you just dusted. Yeah, yeah. You know, just lots of things. Ergonomically, they're better for, um, the team member. All of those kinds of things. So, you know, equipment set, that, that's a grand, um, for one equipment set in a building. So not insignificant. Yeah, no. No. You know, to do that. Um, but once you've got it, then you're pretty good. Yeah, and it makes it a lot easier to work for you and stuff. Absolutely. Was that one of your biggest challenges? Was staffing? Or is that a speculation? Or not? Oh, not at all. I mean, you're working in a entry labor field, right? So there's lots of Lots of competitors. Staffing and training, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, what I really came to believe, I, I stole it, um, from Chick fil A 100%, but, um, that we were, um, a people business that happened to clean buildings. Yeah. Chick fil A's is, you know, we're a people business that happens to cook chicken. Yeah, yeah. And I really believe that. And, and we just got into people development because, um, there's actually career opportunities in that industry. And if we could keep people, everything stabilized out and it became. Um, yeah, people say three years instead of one year, you're right, or six months or something like that. Right. Um, and in, I don't know if you recall, back in 2018 in Larimer, well, the unemployment rate was like 1. 8, 1. 9%. So people talk about during COVID and post COVID, but it was, it was the hardest super tight before that in 2018, 2019. Um, and so we just pivoted and, um, worked my, with my HR manager and it's like, you know what? We are not hiring warm bodies that walk in that door. We're going to hire people that are, are kind of crazy. And so we got really serious about our core values and really serious about who we were hiring. What's it like to be part of our team and multi step process. And you got to fit our culture. And, you know, we had, we had weird crest questions on, um, the job. add that you needed to answer or we just delete your, um, application because even then people were like spamming, you know, what was going on, but we're asking like, it didn't matter to anything, but like, what's your favorite sci fi movie? It doesn't matter what the answer is. What's your favorite superhero? They had to answer it though, for us to even open up their resume. So, cause otherwise they're just, and it doesn't mean you were paying more or anything, just being more selective. This is a person that's paying attention to some detail. And then They'd go through a phone screen and then we'd have, um, an interview with our HR manager in the office. And if they passed that, then they'd go for an interview in the field. Which was a A working interview, basically. A working interview. They didn't do any good work for us. But they gotta, they gotta go to the building that they were in service at the time of day that they were gonna service it. And they're going to do a little bit of work. They're going to put on the vacuum. They're going to do some mopping. See what the work is. But the most interesting part was, people are all prepared for an interview in an office. When you go into the field, they're all relaxed. Like this isn't an inter, like I kind of got the job probably. Right. And so you would hear all kinds of wild stuff and you know, the leader, the night manager, like you had no way on this person. All right. So that step, you know, saved us. And, you know, again, we wanted our kind of crazy. Yeah. Well, your leads were probably your quality control in many respects. Absolutely. And they're the person that's got to be, um, supervising them. Yeah. And are they the contact for the owner or whatever of the building too? No, that was a, that was our daytime managers. Yeah, because, you know, clients aren't around typically at night. How did you facilitate communications between those daytime personnel and the nighttime crews? I think, I think it's one of the best things that, um, we had going as one of our secret sauces. Um, so we had what's called a pass down. Um, every day. And so the pass down was created by that daytime manager and it included a list of if we had customer complaints, customer compliments, and just maybe periodic things that needed to be done. And then schedule issues. Hey, you know, Joe called out over here. We got to cover this building. Here's how we're going to do it. Sure. Um, or we got a route open. Here's how we're covering it. Yeah. Those kinds of things. And the. The daytime manager, the night manager had a pass down meeting is about 30 minutes every day to walk through the issues. Then the night manager, the end of their shift, here's the, these are done, these are done. Here's the issues out of here. Hey, we, um, you know, we broke the picture frame on this person's wall. Right. Just happened to be our key customer and their diploma. Um, real story. Yeah. And my diploma's right up there. Yeah. I'll stay away from it. Yeah. Um, and, and then the, the daytime manager, our, our goal was always to let the customer know an issue before they knew it. Sure. So by seven or seven 30 any issues we wanted in the customer's inbox. Interesting. And it was a massive creator of trust. Wow. So, so you're daytime manager are coming on at seven o'clock in the morning or six Yeah, pretty early. And they're at least checking email from home and doing that, looking at the pass down. But like that customer, we emailed them, Hey, we'll be by today. We need to replace this frame for you. Manager stops by later. He's like, man, I can't believe you guys told me about this. And we take the frame, get it, you know, get it reframed. And it's back the next day to him. And that paid off. Where people are willing to share that I did this. Well, you're willing to tell on yourself, right? Because I'm Scotch taping that thing together and not telling anybody. Exactly. Which is, which is the norm in our industry, right? And then it creates this. You're like, something's not right here. Hey, Pete, what's going on with this thing? I don't know, Kurt. Let me find out. So then I got to wait till night. And then it, so it's like, well, they said they didn't do anything. What do you think happened? And we're going back and forth, right? And you're just ticked, you're just ticked about it as a client. Versus in the other scenario, that client's a thousand percent happy because We admitted to what the issue was and we fixed it right away. Um, and so then you get, if something bad does happen later on, cause the janitors are always first to be blamed, um, you get the benefit of the doubt. Like, wait a minute, these guys are trustworthy. Right. You know, it's probably, I didn't leave my wallet on the desk there. Yeah. Like I thought I did because like they told me when they broke the picture frame. Right. So it's not, and you know, countless stories of people. Turning in wallets and diamond rings and you know all kinds of stuff that we just we had amazing people That's really cool organ. One of our values was being trustworthy and in our tagline under that was Being trustworthy, when nobody is looking because nobody's looking most of the time. And especially in us, cause we're in your building and you're not there. Yeah, for sure. You know, so it's a high trust transaction. Yeah. Um, so I guess kind of along your business journey, you're just kind of growing, building systems, figuring out new ways to hire, to. Let people know that you're a special kind of crazy if you want to work for you guys, right? Yeah, I'll be one of our clients even yeah, maybe and then Kovat nation like is was that significant? Oh, you were essential workers I assume we were keep the buildings clean if even if nobody's in them you have contracts and stuff in those situations Or yeah people scale back a lot. Yeah Yeah, that crazy time. So The good news was, with my corporate experience, I had, I had lived through SARS and H1N1 and bird flu and lots of stuff and You know, and corporate has all kinds of contingency plans for every emergency, right? So that meant we had to create them. So I was very averse. So every fall, I just started keeping an eye on CDC and who, and because flu is always an issue and just anything else that was popping up. And um, so that year COVID was on the radar. It was on our radar. Oh yeah. November of 19. December for me. Yeah. And then come January, it's like, okay, I think this is, and I wasn't worried about it because like SARS in the past and, um, bird fluid, it had hit the coast, but not the interior of the country. So I'm like, it's not. Probably not going to affect us in Colorado. By January, I was like, hmm, we were having cases in the U. S. You know, I think, I think Washington and California started breaking out. Yep, yep. Well, and U. K. and a few places in Europe. You know. Yeah, Europe had gotten really crazy. Yeah, Spain was rough real fast. Yeah. Italy. Italy. Italy, Spain. I mean, a lot of them were, it was really tough over there. Um, so I'm like, you know what? I need to get some N95 masks. And, um, they had lots of them at Home Depot, but they were chemical N95 and they were painting N95. Because back then, 3M was, um, slicing these out, saying they were all for different things. Oh, specialty. Turns out they're all the same thing. Same shit. Right. So I didn't buy them. 20 percent more. I finally found some, um, from a friend of mine that had a pest control company that had ones that were compliant. I'm like, can I buy some of those from you? Okay. Okay. And this is, this is in like February, so it's full on now. This is probably our mutual friend, Kevin. Yeah, Kevin Lee Masters. Yeah, yeah. He's one of my best friends. I don't doubt it. Yeah, Kevin and I used to have a, about every six months, rotation on lunches. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were going to say smoking cigars, because he loves to do that too. Oh, I've never done that with him. We were pretty much just on a lunch rotation. Oh, there you go. He's moved away now, right? Yeah, he's in Pensacola, Florida. Okay, yeah. So, he to this one, I hope you, uh, come back and be on the Loco Experience sometime. Yeah, exactly. You've got a fun journey too. Yeah. I was bribing him for that, then he moved away. Oh, man. Yeah, he, he shot me a picture about two weeks ago of nine and a half inches of snow. Oh, no! I'm like, man, that's more snow than we've had in a storm year this year. So you, so you pick up a bunch of N95s? Yeah, we got a few. We We did training because we knew something, you know, we were going to have to decontaminate this stuff. And we were like, we were like deeply understanding it. Right. And then, but like everyone else, we were like an essential business. You shut down people like, what is this stuff? That's, you know, I remember one of my managers coming in and Hey, the governor in California. Shut down. And I'm like, that's not American. What? So I'm, I'm trying to study all this stuff and, you know, thank goodness we were in essential business. Unfortunately, 40 percent of our customers were not. Um, and so that was an immediate issue. Um. I was like, Oh, we don't have anybody going to the office. So we're not going to need you for a while. Yeah. And I was like, Oh boy, your contract actually says pro forma again, here's where we go bankrupt, right? I mean, it was, it was a very scary time. So, and then we had to, we had to rebuild them cause I'm not gonna charge you for stuff that we're not doing. Right. Um, cause I always had a longterm view for clients. We're going to, we're going to work in your best interest. And it always served us well. So, um, but also you don't want to like. Lay off 80 cleaners or something. I mean, I just, um, I don't know how many of your crew was at that time. Yeah. We were a little over a hundred then. So, and fortunately we didn't have to lay anybody off, which is a miracle. So a couple, I mean, there's a bunch of miracles in there, but. Um, the end of 2020, our revenues were flat from 2019 and we lost 40 percent of our customers for about five months, right? So that was a miraculous, like, cause a bunch of other people signed up, uh, other people signed up and we did hundreds of COVID decontamination. So yeah. Um, trust me, I was, you know, not just a commercial and residential, we didn't do any residential. So just commercial. So your existing client base mostly, but you would go in there and do a full scrub kind of, right. If they had a few people sick, it was like, okay, we're shut down for a couple extra days or one person sick. Cause you know, paranoia was really high. Fear was super high. Um, but I mean, it was definitely, I'm a man of faith and you know, I was, I was on my knees a lot during that time. And. really, really felt like, um, you know, um, God doesn't talk to me audibly or anything, but just like, Hey, you need to, you need to get on offense in this. And, you know, but we had done all the things that you're supposed to do of good due diligence, right? Like we had, um, we'd called through our finances, saved a little bit of money. I, I talked to all my banker friends and they all said, no, thank you. We don't want to extend your line of credit credit. I did this in January, you know, and like, I hate all of you guys. Um, so because they didn't want to give me any money, a couple of months later, they all wanted to give me money. Mark Twain, uh, has a, you know, the, the line about bankers from Mark Twain. Yes. A banker is a man that will gladly loan you his umbrella and then take it back when it starts raining. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, so we just, you know, we got aggressive. We asked Linda and I stopped taking a salary. We want to make sure everybody got paid. You know, we prioritized how we were going to pay vendors. You know, the, the multibillion dollar company vendor that we had, they could wait a while, you know, the, the local person that like we're going to pay them as fast as we could. Um, and of course our employees got paid first, but we asked all of our managers. We're like, look, we're not going to tell you what to do or tell everybody. We got to make a cut here, but we got to make a cut. So, I need each of you to go back and talk with your families. And tell me what you can do. And it was, those were the most humbling, interesting conversations over the next couple of days. Yeah. Of people coming back and saying, Hey, I can, I can take a, a 40% cut. Wow. And I'm like, no, you can't Right. You know? Um, and fortunately so, but I'd be honored to give you a 20% cut if I needed to. Right. Yeah. Right. So we, we talked about'em some, you know, 10%, one 40%. I mean, it was, and it was kind of everything in between. It was. It was super humbling that Um, they believed in us enough and in our line employees enough that they would sacrifice like that. Um, fortunately we didn't have to cut any of their pay. Um, we had enough cash reserves. And then when PPP came out, all of my banker friends wanted to help me. So. Sons of bitches. So. That was, um, actually, uh, I think, uh, right around March 24th. 5th or so, I had the first, uh, we had a long series of weekly zoom ins on business climate stuff. Oh yeah. And I, I was the, the guest host of the very first one before PPP came out. So yeah, whatever that was, probably end of March. And uh, I was like, you know, your job as the business owner is to be a steward. I know that you. Love your staff and love your people, but if they don't have a business to come back to after whatever the hell this shit is Yeah, if there's no entity, then Right, then you have to, your job is to preserve a business that can give them back a job whenever you can. Like you have to do whatever taxes, and maybe that means not paying yourself, whatever, but know that you're not going to do anybody any favors by running yourself bankrupt. Yeah, destroying jobs for the future. You know, I think the other, like the other great part was we, we really educated our employees about, cause there's so much fear around COVID. We were experts already in the medical space. So we knew what was going on and, um, and plus you got a bunch of 25 year olds. You're like, don't freak out. Like, you know, actually they were more freaked out than the 40 year olds. It was just generational fear at the time. We had college kids up to retirees. I mean, we have kind of every spectrum working for us. Um, but we, we equipped them early with a lot of information. I had one person freak, the one person that quit, um, and ironically they did laundry delivery for us. So they would pick up the, um, used towels and mop heads and bring them back. We'd wash them in our commercial washers in our shop and take them back out and stuff. And he was freaking out about that. And I'm like, so when you come back today, can I, can I show you some statistics from the CDC? The flu kills more people every year. What they're predicting this is gonna do so far. And it's like, no way. That's not true. I'm like, the flu didn't kill anybody that year when you Right. Well, or something. It did in the fall of 2019, but, but not in 21. Yeah. It magically went away. Um, so I showed him that and he quit. His wife was actually at a, an at risk person. So, you know, I, it's understandable. I got no criticism for fear really. But we, you know, not knowing much because of the bad information that was coming out. Yeah. We just were proactive. We early on in, um, it was either late February, early March, I put, um, we put masks on everybody and we put safety glasses and not for the Anthony Fauci reason, which he was telling us we didn't need any of that stuff, right? And I'm like, I've worked in a medical environment for two decades. Now this, what you're telling me doesn't match here. Like when human beings go into sterile environments, um, you know, we're always, We're always gowned up, right? We've got, we've got gloves on, we've got a gown on, we've got a hair net on, if you've got a beard like us, you've got a beard net on, you've got a mask, and you've got safety glasses. And, uh, the number one thing is, human beings are the biggest contaminant in sterile environments, because we shed thousands of cells every day, hair, right? So, so whether it's, uh, You know, a cleaner environment for, um, silicon chips or a sterile environment for medical were the biggest contaminant. So you're trying to prevent that in the environment. And then a lot of the mask and the safety glasses in those environments, you're, um, you're cleaning everything in a surgical suite. The ceiling, the lights, the walls, the floor, the table. I mean, the surgical table gets all taken apart, all this stuff. And you have to, it has, it's wet. It has to be wet for 10 minutes for the disinfectants to work. It's just insane. So you're, you're saturating everything. Well, if you got on the ceiling and you're looking up and it's dripping in your eyes, it's not good. Or your mouth or your nose. So it's like, okay, what we know right now, number one, at that time, gloves were optional for our people. It's like, everybody's wearing gloves. And everybody's going to wear a mask and safety glasses. And here's why. Because you're going to be cleaning something and your nose is going to itch, or your eyes are going to itch, and you're going to go like this, or you're going to wipe, and you're going to, you're going to put this into yourself, and we don't want that to happen. So, it was, it was the practical reason, not all of the nonsense that happened later with the masks. And everybody appreciated that. Yeah, yeah. Well, they feel cared for in a certain sense like that. Right. And so, and then we would, and then we just started, um, we communicated with them every single week. Um, a company wide email, which we had really never done before. And, you know, things were happening rapidly. So sometimes it was every day, every week, but it was at least every week. Here's what we're doing. Here's how we're doing as a company and all that. And so we pivoted, we started doing these COVID cleans. Well, you're in Weld and Larimer County, right? Oh, vastly different. So like, yeah, there was no COVID in Greeley, hardly, but I'm sure there is in the hospital settings and the banks and different things. I would say though, that, that difference of philosophy didn't really emerge until probably May or June. Yeah. So there was a lot of fearful months in there. Everybody was just terrified. I mean, I remember the first. The first COVID clean we had was in a doctor's office. And, um, it's like, okay, I'm, I'm going to go do this because, and I had the team with me, but it's like, I'm not going to ask one of my hourly and people to do something that I haven't done. Like I I've researched this, I've developed all the protocols. I'm going to make sure it works. Yeah. Yeah. And we get there, the doctor is freaked out, like locked in their office, in their own office. And I'm like, Hey, doctor, can I talk to you? Because their employee got sick and was in the other room. A patient came in and was there for a while. They figured out they had COVID and then they sent them away. Right. And the doctor is like terrified. Right. It's like, so wait a minute, like, I'm the janitor and I know what's going on here and you're the doctor. Shouldn't this be different, but they didn't, you know, that special just, they didn't know what's going on. So we got them decontaminated, prove the process worked. We had a team that we paid, um, we paid them a time and a half, no matter what they were doing. If they were going and doing a COVID decontamination, we ended up, we had a logo we made for them and shirts. We just had some fun with it, you know, which is morbid probably. Um, you know, we could have made, honestly, we could have made hundreds of thousands of dollars more, but again, we're good stewards. By charging more. Yeah, we're good stewards with our customers money. Yeah. Um, you know, we, we were using a, um, disinfectant that it turns out killed COVID. COVID was an easy, um, virus to kill. It's a, it's an envelope virus, just like the flu bug. It doesn't, and they, we didn't really know this until probably July or August. Mm. But. Um, it dies very easily. It's a very fragile virus. It will even just be on a surface for a while. Yeah, it doesn't live very long on a surface. Less than 24 hours. And that's, it's always one of the myths during cold and flu season anyway. Well, can you guys disinfect everything every night? Yeah, we can do that. And it's clean until the first human touches it. And then it's, and it's that doorknob you're talking about. I always offered, I'm like, I can have the guy in the tuxedo with the warm towels, disinfect the door handle every time. Nobody ever took me up on that for some weird reason, but it's still a service option if somebody wants it. Um, I've any other big developments during the COVID season or did you start thinking about selling then? Or when did you? No, I mean, it was COVID was all survival mode, I think. And then a lot of people decided that. Screw this. Right. They were out. I'm ready to be done. No, I think, you know, I think what happened for us is All of a sudden, um, you know, the cleaning people became important, right? And we, we positioned ourselves as experts on this in the market. So, um, we, you know, cashflow, we survived because of COVID decontaminations. Um, but we also. We grew, even though our revenue ended up flat at the year, we grew because a new client's coming in and they were like, you know, maybe we're going to take this a little more seriously. My crazy drunk uncle Joe's been cleaning and we're thinking that's maybe not a great idea right now. Sometimes we find his chew spit in the toilet and he hasn't flushed it yet. Or he's asleep in the closet or something. I don't know. And it's like, yeah, we, I think we can help you know? There was more customers created from that circumstance. They were having an opposite experience. Um, you know, and I was, um, at the time I was on, I think I was, I was the past president of the chamber board in Fort Collins. I had been previously on the chamber board in Loveland. And so. Just as a courtesy like I'm I'm shooting out information to not only all our clients But to my business network and of course that information is so good. They're like sharing it with people and So then we're getting it wasn't the intent. The intent was truly to just serve. Yeah, but then phone would ring Hey, I was talking to so and so or they sent me this thing. Yeah, could you come look at our building? It's like, yeah, we can, we can come look at your building, you know, um, and so it was, you know, it was good. And like I said, we didn't have to lay anybody off. Um, I think the best success story is none of our people got sick from COVID, um, from working in one of our buildings. We had people, at least as far as you can tell, right. We had people with community transit mission, you know, their kids got sick or they were, they were at, you know, a gathering with people or something like that. Of course that happened. Um, but nobody got sick from work and that was pretty well. And that's. And we were in it all the time. Right, well and, like it's pretty much known now, it's an air transmitted. Thing. Right? Yeah. You got coffee easy. Right? And even if there is, yeah. And so they're working there at night when there's nobody around. Like Right. If there is covid in the room, it's on a desk surface. Yeah. And you just wipe it up kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, I think the number one best piece of advice I gave people during Covid was, you know, stop licking the counters and you're gonna be okay. Right, right. So, I mean, it was really like, let's bring some common sense back to this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Wash your hands, you know, just if you're sick, stay home. I mean, it just kind of simple stuff. So in some ways, the growth that COVID turned or helped turn on the backside of it, at least made it more attractive or compelling to potentially sell, or you weren't even thinking about it at all? Not really. I mean, we, or maybe you weren't thinking about it even up until you got an offer. I don't know. No, I, you know, beginning of 21, I think the thing that happened to us during COVID, it happened to everybody. Um, like a box of nitrile gloves, a hundred gloves. in January of 2020 cost 4. 50. Right. Um, later in the year, we were paying 23 to 25 for that same box of gloves. And it was, um, I don't think it was price gouging. I think it truly was supply and demand because Everybody needed gloves all of a sudden, and there's only so many glove manufacturers, you know, so, um, it was, you know, they were sticking it to us, but they had more demand than they supply, you know, they were. Um, so, you know, um, those haven't come back down to 4. 50 though, oddly. Um, I actually still have, uh, uh, gloves from my food trucking days. Oh, yeah. There you go. I've got two more boxes left and I use them for cleaning my grill and nasty stuff and the plumbing COVID. You gotta have your stash, right? I had it. I was down to a four pack in the basement during that season, but, uh, we made it through. There you go. So we were seeing that price inflation like on everything in, in 2020. So we got in 21 and we were, we were good and we were growing. And I mean, we had a nice, you're making price adjustments, like everybody's back. Well, we didn't, but we had enough room, like we could pay people more. So we kind of raised wages. Um, we were able, uh, one of the coolest things was at the end of 2020. Um, we were able to pay out some huge bonuses to all of our team who had worked so hard. Um, so the year ended up great, felt totally blessed and we wanted to share that, you know, with our team. So it was really cool. Yeah. Um, and so we got, we kind of did our, uh, midyear planning in, in early July and I left on vacation. Things were great. And when I came back, things were not great. Um, I think we've had a bunch of people who've been on the hiring front and my VP and my HR manager are like, we can't hire anybody. I'm like, what are you talking about? I mean, like we hire five or six people every week, you know, I mean, it was just a constant thing. Like we haven't hired anybody this month. I'm like, what is going on? And like, well, everybody's taking their wages up to 15. Right. And we were, we were starting at 1350 with a bump to 14 within a few months. Right. I'm like, okay, well, that's, that's a problem. Cause I don't have that money. Math. Right? Math. Yes. And, um, so, went back and did some research and it's like, oh boy, we gotta do. Have you been maybe increasing your I hadn't been doing a little bit sooner, uh, might've been able to absorb some of that. So in our industry, there's always a fight every year, a three to 5 percent increase was always a fight with a customer. So it became a little bit of a retention gamble, right? So you just, so you kind of delay those, you put pricing into new clients and, you know, so we, we were suffering from that. and it was, now it was acute. So we built a plan. I'm like, okay, everybody's going up to 15 here on September 1st. This is now beginning of August, right? Oh, right. Cause you can't hire new people at 15 bucks. Nope. If you're still paying somebody 14, 20. Can't do that. That wasn't suggested. I'm like, we're not doing that. That's not gonna, that will not fly. That's neither ethical nor safe. Right. Somebody's going to talk. We'll go like wildfire, right? Yep. Um, and in the meantime, we built a case, um, And we had to, most of our clients, we had to ask for like a 25 percent increase and some were even bigger. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's like, okay, well this might be the end of the enterprise here. So next, if we lose too many, it'll be, you know, we're going to go down. Right. And so, um, but we put the case together and really about, Look, these are entry level people that live in our Isn't that crazy? Right after giving out big bonuses and stuff in 2020, and Yeah! Like now we're Frustrated, now you're like, shit, batting down the hatches, we gotta figure this out. Right. It's going the other way pretty quickly, you know, six, seven months there. Okay. So, we put this case together. It was about 30 pages of why we needed this price increase, and it included, of course, inflation, and it included taking care of our employees, not just now, but we showed them a path. It was like My prediction is this is going to go to 20 an hour within three years, um, and we're pretty close there, by the way. Um, so, um, so we, we went out, I had one of our top five customers call me, I'm working on this and he says, Hey man, can we get together like next week? I need to talk about ways that we can save money and cut our pricing. I'm like, okay. Um, we'll meet with you. Well, incidentally, I need to talk with you about some ways that I could increase your pricing at least 20%. I didn't say that on the phone. But, you know, it was a pretty big gut check. Yeah. Um, so we, we went and met with him. And, um, it was about a 28 percent price increase. And reduced service. Price decrease and reduced service. No, price increase. Oh, increase and reduced service. But what he really needed was reduced service. And so, we went in there and he said, Wow. This is, I sent it to him 24 hours before. Cause I wanted him to read it. It was, it was a complex case study and the pricing was complex. And, um, when we sat down, it's like, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Oh, really? Tell me about that. It's like, well, I need to do a couple of things here, but we're gonna, we're gonna maintain our vacancy. So if you can, if you can keep it at this rate, I can sell this. And then I was pitching, um, I think it was like 1 percent a year, um, discounts if they would sign on for three years. So now I made three year contracts, um, with the clients. And so we walked out of the meeting and I was like, wow, that went a lot better than we thought. And then the next day we had our largest client and, um. This is a client that would, um, dicker with me over how you calculated the percentage increase. Cause if you do it one way with the numerator and denominator, it's like a 10th of a percent higher or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. He wanted it the lowest way. Um, I'm like, Oh, this is going to be a rough meeting. Always on that original amount. And this is, I think at that time, I don't know, it was, he was a good, he was 15 or 20 percent of our business. So it was significant. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, um, Same thing. Send him the case study the day before. And we sat down and, um, he's like, I said, so what do you, what do you think? And he says, well, you gotta be an effing idiot if you don't understand what's going on. He's like, every vendor of mine has already asked for price increases. Usually the ones that are waiting. We had annual contracts with him that started in January. This is now, you know, August. And, um, he's like, you guys are waiting until September. This is a no brainer. So we talked about that for probably five minutes. And I'm like, Hey, I just want to clarify, you know, we had a bunch of buildings that we did for him. I said, you're talking every single building here because all of them are managed by like an HOA or that kind of thing, commercial HOA. It's like, yeah, every single building, he says, you guys have. You guys have made sacrifices for us in the past. We're going to, this is going to, we need to keep you guys. Okay. This is what we're going to do. Like, okay. And so, um, Leland and I walked out and said, man, maybe we're not asking for enough money. So we, that was too easy. Right? So we, um, we weren't quite as generous on the discounts, you know, on the next clients. And over the next couple of months, we talked to every single client. And, um, we lost, we lost three in the process and one, I just totally messed up the pricing on, um, and just, and then just fumbled it. Um, another was a new client we'd gotten that year. They were small and they just, we already were an upgrade and they couldn't handle more, you know? Um, so it was, it was pretty incredible. So we get to the end of 2021. And, um, I just, I felt like we just kind of got released from the business, which is kind of finally like at the end of the fear, right? In some ways, right? But we had now this back into masking that September or something, right? But we're starting to see the price increases come in, right? Because we were, We had most of the clients we had done, like, Hey, we're going to implement this at the beginning of the next month. Right. And so we knew in January hit like everything, like you get, you can map it out. I can map it out for three years, what this performance is going to look like, what things are. And I mean, it was, and again, we were able to give really good bonuses at the end of, you know, we raised everybody's wages, like a dollar an hour. Right. And, um, and we gave great bonuses again at the end of the year. I mean, it was really. You know, things were going well and, and now it was like really set. Yeah. Um, yeah. Most of your big stuff under long term contracts. And, and we had, you know, I think the, our transition story though, starts back in, um, probably 2015, 2016, we had an offer in 2016, we had an LOI and, um, and we backed out when you were like 20, 30 employees or something. Yeah. Yeah. We had, yeah, probably 30, 40 employees. Yeah. And, um. Both Linda and I separately felt like, um, you know, God was telling us, no, it's not the time. Like, your, your ministry, your focus needs to be on your employees right now. As the entrepreneur, I was okay with that. Linda was not happy about that, but she was obedient. She's like, Hey, I think this is, I'm like, I'm feeling the same thing. It just, it turns out it was a brilliant move because, um, one night I had to go get a job right away and we found it out in the aftermath about four years later that, um, That company sold to another company and then that new owner stiffed all of the first acquisition companies Oh, so it's supposed to be a role. We did it with Roger kind of yeah So we'd have probably not gotten our earn out on that. I mean it would have been bad bad news. Yeah It's like okay, we got saved we dodged a bullet there But I really felt like in the latter part of that year like okay, I think like I think it's time to go Yeah, we got through this and plus I was just I was stinking tired from two years of dealing with this stuff. Well, I didn't realize you're, you're a little bit older than me. I thought maybe I was a little older. I'm not sure. I wasn't sure. No, I'm older than you started working in 92 when I graduated high school. I got promoted in 92. You got promoted in 92. I've been working a few years. So, uh. So, yeah. And I, but I know the feeling like you get into the fifties and stuff and you just don't really wanna do the 60 hour weeks anymore. It's, it's just a grind, you know? Yeah. And so, um, so we called up, um, you know, an investment banker in our industry Okay. Outta Chicago, um, that I had worked with before and, and knew great guy. Um, he's also named Peter. So that's, you know, he's gotta be a good, easy to trust. Yeah. Gotta be a good guy. Um, and he's like, yeah, let's do this thing, you know. Um, and a guy I know, he's like, Hey, um, he's doing this roll up. And if you're interested, I think he's in Colorado right now, skiing. I'm like, yeah, let's go have lunch. You know, like I'm always up for a seven figure lunch. And, uh, so I drove up to, um, Beaver Creek and we had lunch and it's like, well, thanks for taking a couple hours. I'm like, yeah, it was more like three and a half, but you're welcome. And, um, we had a great meeting. It's like, Hey, just. Whatever you do, I want to be the first one to see this. I'm like, okay, we'll, we'll give you the first shot at it. And so, um, it was interesting working with the investment company cause they were, um, what I felt was trying to low ball the price. And I'm like, look, because it's based off of EBITDA, which had been pretty much not good in 21, um, but I'm like, let me go work on the performance. You guys can see this is like, okay, I see what you're saying. Um, we'll, we'll do it this way. And so we laid out our price and, um, and we gave, we gave Bryson the first shot at it and we negotiated a little bit back and forth. And I said, the only thing I want is, um, they put a cap on the earn out. I'm like, I'd like you to take the cap off. Cause I believe we're going to over perform to kick ass right now. And well, actually the other cleaning industry people I know, including one longtime member, she got slammed during COVID recovered. And then after that blew up. Yeah. You know, industry. Yeah. People realized maybe we need professionals doing this. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So that probably benefit. So that was the only thing he, he kept the cap on there. Okay. And, um, and it was fine. We, and we overperformed and He should have paid you a little bit more. He should. No, it was all good. Honestly. It was all good. I had a um, so you stayed on for like a year or something? Yeah, I was ready to be done. So we exited in April of 22 and I had a, I had to, um. I was kind of actively, um, helping out for a few months and then like once a week in the office and then not in the office and, you know, and they were still paying me. So, um, I couldn't complain too much as long as things were heading in the right direction, there to answer phone calls and all that kind of stuff. And what's the business name now? Did they change the name? Nope, still Total Facility Care. So, um, when they bought us, um, they're out of Tampa, Florida. When they bought us, they had gone from, um, Um, and so, and now today they're just, they're right, hovering around a billion dollars. Oh, wow. They've been rolling up companies all across the U. S. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so now they're trying to choose. So is that the new vet industry thing and they get like supply? Cause that, I'm guessing it might be similar in some ways. Like the veterinary industry has been taken over by big corporates rolling up. Oh, lots of industries. And they have just advantages on the supply chain. Yeah. And so they can get You know, so like when I was working in the corporate side, like I knew all of the major equipment manufacturers and all that, because we would buy from them and we'd buy through a distributor, but we'd pay them 10 percent over the manufacturer's price, which the distributor hated because they had a lot fatter margins than that. And then as a little guy, you don't have those. But if you're a small business, you're like, no, you don't have any of those advantages, you know, even. You know, I think, you know, when I, when I left, we were buying like 100, 000 of chemicals every year. Yeah. So we got some better pricing, but nothing like I enjoyed at that corporate level. So, you know, at a billion dollars, I don't know what their spend is, but it's, it's several million dollars a year on chemicals and equipment. Sure. They're, they're getting the best prices. Well, it's kind of the same as too big to fail in banking, you know, the Wells Fargo is in the J. P. Morgans. They literally borrow their money for like a point less than everybody else because they're too big to fail. Yeah. Well, it's a built in monopoly. I don't know. It is. We could talk more about it, but probably we don't have time, but I feel like if anything. There should be some kind of a size tax, right? Because size, size creates power, power creates dirty deeds and uncompetitive practices and things like that. And like, in your case, like it's hard, would be harder still for a little guy to try to get going again now. Yeah. Cause you got to pay full price for all those materials, all that stuff. Yeah. And you know, in our industry, I'll say it's, um, it's ultra competitive. I think it's super, it's a super difficult industry because you're. You're trying to manage professionally, but you've got a lot of entry level employees, high turnover. Um, Right. And the competition is always there. I mean, it takes somebody with a vacuum and a mop bucket and they're in business. I mean, it's, you know. No barriers to entry. Right. Now, now, they're not going to hire that person with the mop bucket and the vacuum into their clean room. Totally. So for us, those technical spaces are the more complex, you know, campus environments, those kinds of things are always good because, you know, it's, The barrier to that was higher and the cost of change for the client was always painful. So if you, if you change, you know, there's going to be complaints from people. Um, and so that was, you know, that was kind of our secret sauce. And the flip side, um, you know, we, you guys would know it, but we, um, we've been working on it for a couple of years and shortly after the transaction, we landed the customers banging customer here. Um, they, you know, the first letter is. F and the last letters. Oh, if you know who that customer is, they have a green logo, but they were looking for some solutions. And, um, I forget how many branches, but Nebraska, Wyoming, Colorado. Right. So we picked, we picked up all of that Western Nebraska, I should say. And, um, the local manager here was great facilities guy, but his boss in Omaha is like, are you sure you want to do this? Because you don't. He had, I think in that area, he had three or four vendors and he wanted to get to one and we had been talking to him for two years easily. He'd met our clients. He'd been in our buildings. He'd seen how we executed. He's like, I need, that's exactly what I need right there. Cause we solve all his problems. And, but it doesn't mean the first couple of months aren't bumpy. Cause you're transitioning all these branches, new expectations and all of that. So, um, you know, I give him a lot of credit and they're happy as could be now. They're one of the biggest fans of total facility care. There it is. So, yeah, so it's fun. I feel like if we're gonna get you out of here in a reasonable time, we better, uh, take a quick break and then come into a little bit more of the story. Alright, sounds good. And, uh, we'll also talk a little bit more about, uh, Wait, we don't have two cents. Alright, sounds great. Okay, and we're back. So, I think the question I have, Pete, after listening to that, kind of, really learning more about your industry than I've ever known before, by far, uh, and just how, how it plays, how it uh, interrelates, it's still relationship driven. Oh yeah, 100%. And a pencil, you know, a sharp pencil for bidding it right, executing it right, asking for more money if you need to, all those kind of things. Um, what were some of the big things that you learned? Elements of change, if you will, along the way, you already kind of talked about kind of getting maybe culture first in that 2018 19 time period, hiring and develop a people business, kind of taking that focus, obviously education and communication and even being a leader in the county, the community. At that time during the COVID nation was key. Is there other big, big change elements for total facility care over the years? Um, you know, I think, um, EOS was really big pivotal in our, in our journey. Um, when did you start that? Um, in 2018, but we had won, um, the chamber small business of the year award in 2015. And then a couple of weeks later, we won the, we made the mercury 400 or 100 list for the first time, number four on the list. Okay. And, um, there was an EOS implementer, I think the only one in Colorado at the time, she was here in Fort Collins and, uh, she handed me traction and said, Hey, I think this, you guys are on a great path. I think this will really help you. And I'm like, okay. I mean, I read business books all the time, right? So. Um, I cracked it open and read the first, first 30 pages and it was about mission, vision, values. And I was like, ah, like, I don't need another book on this and I put it back on the shelf. Um, and then in, so we continued to grow in 2018. Um, you know, we were hitting my personal selling, I think, is what was happening. And, uh, You were managing all the things kind of too much. All the things, way too much. And, um, at my peer advisory group, the one thing I was in that was good, Um, they had a guest come in, he was a dentist, and he had implemented EOS. Okay. And he was just raving about it. I'm like, I think I got that book on my bookshelf. I need to go look at that thing. And then, interestingly, another, uh, peer advisory group that was trying to recruit me Okay. Sent me an email and said, Hey, this guy, Ken Trader is going to be in town. He's an EOS implementer. Well. Ken and I had been friends since like the late 80s. Oh wow. And I hadn't seen him in a few years. And I'm like, I can't be there that day. But I reach out to Ken. Right, right. And so he gave me the spiel on EOS. I'm like, we need to do that. So he came in and um, we decided to self implement. And he said, I'll help you. He says, you're the one guy I think that could self implement this thing. Yeah. And so, so we did. And that was So he coached you a little bit, but didn't charge you the full boat fee. He coached me, yeah. And, um, and we just, we just went in and did it and it was 2018, 2019, 2018, yeah, into 2019 and it was transformational because, um, I hired the right leadership team. I had, you know, you have to make some painful decisions when you get real about your capacity and well, and sometimes the people, right, people, right on your team, all of that stuff, right. That's out of EOS. And so. I had to let some people go, hired some right people, and it just set us up for success. And, and those systems and those people are still running the company today. So I think that's, you know, just a huge success that it's still, it's thriving. We've got great people that are still running it and those systems are running it. They're still running on EOS. whole big machine? No, just your, your shop is running on EOS, just our shop locally. And sometimes there's conflict with that. But, um, and you see our vision board, right? And, you know, early on, I was like, geez, Bryson, come on, man. You guys should really benefit from this. I get, you know, some issues and it's not built for a company that big, but the principles still transfer. So, yeah, so that was huge for us. And so I'm a massive fan of EOS. If, if as an owner. You like wanting more freedom in your business and, um, you know, and you want to make more money, um, all the things, right. And you want to have the broken parts. And well, for me, I think give your team more clarity about what we're really trying to do. Each position kind of, you want to help people connect to greater purpose, right. And, um, and just have a better, have a better story. I mean, it's just not grinding all the time. It's like you can have some fun and joy in your business. And I think EOS are one of those. tools, you know, the great game, game of business. Um, there's several others out there. You got to have some system, have a system and run as an entrepreneur. So, um, you know, I didn't introduce you as our new incoming facilitator for local think tank, although I did miss that, but talk to me about peer advisory and it in your business journey. Have you been in a peer advisory chapter? A lot of that? Um, yeah. How long was in a peer advisory group? Um, probably man, Probably seven years seven or eight years. Okay, you know so mid kind of middle at TFC through the end of it. Yeah, I just It's so valuable. Um, you know, I think the entrepreneurs, was that Vistage for you or was it something else? It was through, um, kingdom Way in town. Okay, sure. Dan's groups. Yep. Yeah. And um, Dan's been on the show. I think he was episode 99, maybe 90 99. Real around there, man. You got like a photographic memory of those episodes. Pornographic memory actually. There you go. Um, so it's huge. I'm not talking about you Dan, I'm just teasing. You've got other, um. You know, entrepreneurs that are the same boat, you know, um, business owners are fighting and a lot of times it's very isolating being in those positions. So I think just somebody to brainstorm with that understands the journey, right? And understands it's been there that, you know, Hey, I didn't take a paycheck. I had to take out of my home equity to pay, make payroll this month or. Whatever it is, right, that you can just relate that and, and you can get good counsel from other people around you. Yeah, yeah. Dan and I were kind of, we were introduced like when he was kind of first getting going and I was first getting pro. And I had like this one page Word document application with a logo that my friend's daughter had made and whatever. And he had like, The nice fold out thing with different flyers and stuff, and, uh, I've just really appreciated his heart for service, uh, all over the world. Absolutely. Yeah. Dan's great guy. Some of the friendliest competitors you're gonna meet. Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, there's, um, I admire, I admire the heck out of you for what you've built for Loco and, um, you know, you already hired me so I don't have to say it right. But um, it's, I mean, it's not, it's not an easy task to build something from nothing and Yeah. And there's. long time competitors too in the market that have been doing it for decades. So, you know, you, you found the, the course. Anyway, we'll see, you know, I think that there is opportunity. For the, the, the small and midsize businesses around the country to get that kind of experience, you know, and with or without a faith component, you know, for me, I've never made that part of my brand, but it's part of my, my being, right. So, you know, go from there. Yeah. And I think, I think there is a market for that. And, you know, most of the big national ones are going after the higher revenue companies. Right. Um, so yeah, so you found a nice sweet spot there for Loco and. Um, clearly it's working. I hope so. It's benefiting lots of folks. Yeah, for sure. Well, I appreciate that. And I appreciate you being part of the team. Um, let's jump in the time machine to first grade. Like I promised, where are we at? First grade, uh, Greeley, Colorado. Okay. Um Were you born and raised? Uh, I was not born This is a shame to me as a Broncos fan. I was born in Oakland, California. Okay. But you don't have any choice where you're born. Yeah. My parents moved out here when I was three years old. What were the circumstances of that? Were they born and raised Californians? Or were they coming back to Colorado? Yeah, my folks met in Germany. My dad was in the army over there. And my mom was over there with her family. Um, my great uncle, who's now passed, but he was an aerospace engineer for Boeing. So he was over there doing some work with Boeing and my mom went along. Um, so mom and dad met in Germany and came back. His parents lived in Alameda, California. And so I was born in Oakland. They lived there for a little while. And my dad went to mortuary school. And, uh, got a job at a mortuary in Greeley, Colorado. So, yeah. That's an unusual vocation. It is. And he didn't stay in it very long because he was an entrepreneur. Yeah. So, all the mortuaries It's a really good business, though, if you buy one. Yeah. I mean, people are dying to get in. Totally. So Um, but back then, all the mortuaries had ambulances. And they had ambulances for the morbid reason that if you're the first one on scene, you can have dibs on the bodies. Really? Absolutely. This is early sixties, right? And, uh, so my dad actually kind of started falling in love with first aid and I don't, I'm not even sure EMTs were a thing then. Yeah, yeah. So he offered to buy the ambulance from the mortuary. And he started the Greeley Ambulance Company. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, did he? And then that, uh, and there was competition, actually. There was other guys that were doing the same thing. Yeah. And, um, and then he, he kind of won the market and then he had the Weld County Ambulance Company. Isn't it so funny that, like, we're convinced in these days that an ambulance has to be, like, owned by a hospital. Right. And it must be like a, like a, it's like the fire truck, right? Like, it has to be a public service or whatever. Right, But there's actually lots of private ambulances. Ambulances would probably be a lot cheaper. Oh, there are existing now still? Yeah, so like if you see like AMR, you'll see it more like that in the Detroit area. Those are all private ambulances. So they're just like contracted to the hospitals to go pick up people and different things. But that's still, you gotta live within their existing. Like structure, it doesn't allow that kind of free range entrepreneurism. Like your dad was like, Hey, I got, you got any dead bodies I could hold. Exactly. So, so yeah, so first grade I'm in, um, I'm in, um, public school in, um, Greeley, Colorado, and I get a first grade, I can't read. And my parents are like, this is ridiculous. And so they put me in a private school, um, Trinity Lutheran, and I was a hellion in second grade. I did learn to read, which is good. That's good. But the famous thing my mom talks about is the student teacher in the spring, and me and my friend were just in trouble all the time in second grade. And, um, she had such a great experience student teaching, she decided that after four years of college and student teaching, she no longer wanted to be a teacher. And quit. You chased a teacher out of her career. Right. So hopefully she's happy today, whatever it is. Should be better on that other career path anyway. Yeah, I'm sure. So you were, uh, we'll call it a hyper active child with limited restrictions on your self behavior. Maybe we'll. Oh yeah. I mean, I, um, curious about everything. Yeah. And that was back in the day when student, um, teachers could spank you. So like I would. I mean, the worst punishment was you had to stay in from recess and you had to write pages out of the encyclopedia. I would get swatted sometimes, but it was bad because then I'd get spanked by my dad at home. Because back then, it wasn't the teacher's fault, it was the kid's fault. Yeah, I was just remembering actually. Why are you doing that to your poor teacher? I think 9th grade typing class is the last time I was assigned to write pages out of the dictionary is what we used. I had a typing class in 9th grade too. I don't think they teach typing anymore. No, because their computers were there. So later it wasn't useless though. Think how good we're at typing now. True. Yes. Compared to some people. Yeah. Right. I, you know. So, um, how did you progress? Were you, were you, did you become academic? Did you become sporty? Did you have siblings by then? Uh, yeah, I've got a younger sister, uh, Becky, she actually just retired. Um, as the Loveland, uh, 9 1 1 center manager. She did that for 37 years down the line. Kind of followed in Dad's footsteps. Yeah, it was, it was weird. We all like got into some law enforcement there for a while. So, um, yeah, so she's amazing. She lives in Loveland. Um, and. Yeah, so, um, both, so I love sports, played basketball and, and football. You could probably, yeah, huge guess that from my amazing stature, Um, fortunately I was in a small school, so Well yeah. But back in those days, being like, everybody was smaller, six foot tall and, and yeah. Skinny was big. Yeah. My eighth grade basketball team, we had a couple of guys that were five 10 and they were monsters. Right. You know, so in eighth grade, that's probably still true today actually. Yeah. But, um, yeah, so played, uh, sports in, in high school. Um, class president, um, you know, pretty charismatic, forward thinking, definitely those leadership things were early, I think, even in second grade, it was just going in the wrong direction. So, um, so yeah, those things and, um, yeah, good academically and, um, definitely wanted to go, you know, be a billionaire. I don't think that was a thing. Be a millionaire when I graduated high school and, you know, probably start a business, do those kinds of things. So, yeah. Did you go? College proper then too? Did we talk about that? Um, yeah, I came over to CSU. So, long ways away from home. Yep, and business. My dad wanted me to study finance, so that's what I went into. And then I took cost accounting 1 and 2. And I got A's in it. And I'm like, I never want to do this again. Right, don't make me. So, then I moved to management. Fair enough. That seems more suited probably. Absolutely, yeah. Um, when did you Like you said, you wanted to be a millionaire or a billionaire or something, and that usually comes with entrepreneurship in some fashion. Did you have other like teenage entrepreneurial ventures, lemonade stands, stealing stuff and hawking them at the pawn shop? No, I did not do that. Okay. That's great. No, I, yeah, lots of little ventures. So back in the day, um, in the back of comic books, you could, um, buy things that you could sell door to door. So like I would buy seeds and we'd go sell them in the springtime door to door to the neighbor, a big case of seeds, right. So for profit or whatever, yeah. Delivered newspaper, babysat. Um, mowed lawns, um, all that. When I was 16, my best friend and I started a lawn mowing business. Okay. And we had 20 lawns. Okay. Um, that we mowed every week. And then we'd do landscaping projects. Yeah, it's great until it turns out grass still grows after school starts and football practice. Oh, right. So. So fulfilling your contracts at the end of the season was harder. Yeah, September, October was rough. We'd, um, so after practice, Hiring seventh graders to go over there. We'd go mow lawns, you know, we'd like pull the truck up so we could see what the headlights and then we'd come back in the morning. Before school started to make sure we didn't have mohawks on the grass to trim anything we missed. Quality control always. Absolutely. So, yeah, so there's always a little something like that going on. I dig it. I dig it. It's fun to know. Do you, what, um, I guess we're, we always talk about faith, family, politics. And so the question I was going to ask is. I have all of those. Talk to me about your children. Are there entrepreneurs in waiting or already in your family tree? Uh, no, they're probably smarter than that. So, yeah. At least one of the government workers. That's easier. Oh, no, no, no. Used to be easier. Just kidding. No, my, uh, my son and, um, his wife and girls live in Windsor, and he's an iOS programmer. Okay. Self taught. All right. Um, and he can, he can program iOS and Android. And what's that mean? So, like, um, so like currently he's working for Uber, not as a driver, so he programs the airport app. Okay. Interesting. Um, so if you've ever had an airport Uber ride, um, you know, my son was probably a part of that somehow. Gotcha. Okay. Um, yeah, there was some big release project they were working on, um, right before Thanksgiving because that's a heavy travel season in airports. And it was, I, it was some improvement for the drivers on how they, they could see fares and pick them faster and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. There's so much behind all that. Like to me, I just push the button and it works, but yeah, pretty amazing. A lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. So, and he's worked for a couple of companies doing those kinds of things. And then. Um, my daughter and her husband and family are up in Cheyenne. Okay. And, uh, she works kind of now as an office manager, ironically at a funeral home. Okay. Um, but she's got, uh, and she's got six kids too. So they're Oh, wow. They're busy. That's a full time job too. Yeah. And my son's got three kids. So we've got nine grandkids all together. So, uh, usually I ask, uh, like one word description of the kids or grandkids. Oh. Nine seems like a lot, two seems like a few, but So can I use two words? Yeah. Beautiful chaos. That's all of them? All of them. All of them put together. Yeah, when they're all together, it's beautiful chaos. The question I was going to ask is, do you see any budding entrepreneurs in that grandkids set? Uh, yeah, definitely. Yeah? Definitely. We'll see. Yeah. We'll see if that plays out. Yep. Um, what else in the family, uh, realm would you like to talk about, if anything? Uh You want to talk about your wife? Yeah, my amazing wife. Where did you pick her up on this journey? Yeah, so my wife and I, um Uh, I spotted her, I was in 9th grade, and she was in 8th grade. Okay. And I spotted her, and I was like, man, that's Are we back in public schools, or were we in private schools too? No, we were in a private, uh, Christian high school in, uh, day spring. Alright. And, um, I was like, man, that girl is cute. And, um, so like there was like a school hayride or something in October, like, Hey, you want to like sit together on the hayride. I think I was bold and I held her hand or put my arm around her or something. You know? Yeah. It was pretty hot, pretty hot junior high there. So we dated off and on through high school and then got serious towards the end of that. And then, um, and then as I was leaving for college, she dropped me. She's like, okay, you're going to go, you know, see the world, all that, whatever, meet other girls, but she was, you were just at CSU and she was really, really, it wasn't, you're like, no way, man. And, uh, so, um, so we were a little back and forth that fall. And then when I came home for Christmas. We reconnected, and then, um, we got engaged. So basically she held you loosely. She held me loosely, yeah. She gave you the freedom to go make other decisions if you wanted to be stupid. And likewise, right? Yeah, right. Or maybe she had a boyfriend on the side she wanted to go explore with, I don't know. She dated some other guys, but hey, let's face it. It wasn't about that. Right. Okay. Yeah, so we got, we got married, uh, December of 83 after she graduated high school. Okay. And, uh, she's 19. Oh, really? So you were, like, you finished your first year of college. Right. And she finished her high school. Amazingly, after I got married, my college grades got a whole lot better, too. Right. I can't imagine. It turns out if you go to class, it helps a lot. I don't know. That was part of my journey, too. I actually quit buying textbooks. Uh, my, uh. It's my second year of college because I got a DUI, which was my warning shot, but I, but I wasn't attending classes. So I was like, well, if you don't have the book to try to read and catch up, then you won't skip class. And so I, then I attended class a hundred percent of the time, took copious notes and got straight A's. No, I pretty much got straight A's from there. I quit buying textbooks. I don't know if I could do that without reading the book. Well, I just, I'm an, I'm an auditory learner and as long as I'm going to class and listening closely. All right. I appreciate the result. I know. I need it. For me, it was. I don't know. I don't recommend it necessarily, but if you're out there thinking, God, why do I buy these textbooks for 120 and sell them for 30? Yeah. Well, do what I did. So, I mean, Lynn is amazing. We're, you know, we just had our 41st anniversary in December. Wow. And, um, we love each other more now than we ever have, honestly. So, you know, people ask me about that. It's like, it, it hasn't all been, um, Easy. There's been some really hard spots. Well, you've talked already a couple times about how she's really not an entrepreneur and you really are. Yeah. And she was, she was sitting here. She would say that very same thing. Yeah. And, but you know, there's, um, I think there's some beauty towards the end of a journey when you've persevered through all the hard stuff. Yeah, yeah. You know, and, um, a hundred percent there's honestly, there's no one I'd rather be with. Um, you know, and we just so much in common, right? Yeah. I mean, yeah. Honestly, since we were kids. I share that with you. I mean, Jill and I, my wife and I met right when I first moved to Fort Collins here. Um, and she's very much more similar, kind of, uh, to what you're talking about. But having her, like, lock arms with me and march through, The transition from upper middle class banker to poverty level income entrepreneur. You gotta go get a job, Andy. Yeah, well, and she got a huge promotion and raise, which is what allowed me to keep going. I was gonna have to give up and go back and get a bank job. But she got a big raise and a big promotion in health insurance. I was like, oh, maybe I can make this my real thing. Good job, Jill. Yeah, kudos, baby. We wouldn't be here today, right? Yeah, for sure. Well, and to do that when You're just not sure right, uh, which is the case with, with Linda and with Jill, it sounds like, you know, and I, you know, I think one of our success is we've always pulled for each other and it sounds like you and Jill do that too. And, you know, we see so many couples that are just like, they're trying to do their own thing and they're pulling against each other. It's like, you got to fight for each other. That's the, you know, well, it's not a 50, 50, it's a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent, you know, for sure. I also say like. We didn't always like each other, but we've always loved each other. You know, and so, and that perseveres through the hard times. Like, okay, at the end of this, like, I'm gonna still love you, so let's figure this out. If, uh, if she was sitting here instead of you, what would she say about you was, uh, both why she was drawn to you first and why she's, uh, locked arms with you for 44 years? Oh man, I don't know. I think because she was cute. I already know that. And smart. She was very cute. She still is smarter than you too. Um, and, um, yeah, I don't know. I, you know, we were just kindred spirits for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I would say early on she recognized it as well as you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um hmm. Yeah. And I think, you know, she's, isn't that. It's amazing too. I think, you know, she's a spouse that's believed in me, even in those times when I haven't believed in me, you know, which there's, I think we all, as confident as I am about nobody's beat me up more than I've beat me. You have your own self doubts, right? And so to have somebody in your court, in your corner. You know, like, hey, we can figure this thing out. Let's, you know, let's solve it, right? We gotta figure out how to move forward. Even when we failed, you know. And especially when it's somebody that you love telling you those things. Like, they're easier to believe than somebody else that might be trying to give you a pep talk. And taking some crazy risks. Like, leaving a good job on a good career path at the police department. Sure. Put in your 20 or 30 and you got a good retirement, you know, and or the corporate thing after that, right. You know, like, Hey, I believe in you. Let's, let's do this thing. Yeah. You could have spent the rest of your life in Racine. Right. Right. Thank goodness. Um, so I think that kind of checks the family box. Uh, you want to talk faith or politics next? Uh, your pick? You're the questioner. So, um, let's talk about faith. We haven't, okay. much. Um, you mentioned that your folks took you out of public school and then eventually at least you were in a private Christian school, Day Spring. Um, what was their faith background? Were they born and raised in the faith and were you thusly raised the same or? Talk to me about that. Um, yeah, so I would say, I'm trying to think, my mom was, Um, probably raised in the Presbyterian church. I think my dad was in like the Episcopal church, but his dad was in, um, he was in the Navy. He retired as a captain. My dad moved, he was in 17 elementary schools by the time or in 17 schools by the time he graduated high school. So, um, you know, and that's during world war II and, and Korea. So, I mean, he. I don't know, you know, I think they went to church, almost everybody did back then. Yeah, yeah. It was hard. Never had a church community, hardly. Like, and friends and all that stuff, right? Right, right. So. Um, so we went to a Presbyterian church growing up, very traditional, you know, kind of high church with, uh, church organ and piano. Okay. You know, the pastor's in a robe and Okay. You know, stand up, sit down, fight, fight, fight, all that good stuff. Okay. Um, and for me, by the time I was probably seven or eight, I was like, there's, there's just, I don't like this. Like there's nothing here. Boring kind of, right? Yeah. Yeah. Totally boring. And I don't get it. And. Um, all of that, so. I mean, I was, I was definitely, um, not a person of faith and, um, and then my mom, so then I had to go to this Lutheran elementary school because the public school wasn't doing very good. Yeah. Yeah. Or you weren't doing very good there anyway. Right. And then the, so now I'm in this Lutheran thing, right? Which is even higher kind of church, right? Right. We have more church. Right. Um, and so, I mean, I just, it's all not working for me and I'm just. At the end of 8th grade, that was the end of elementary school, then you go into junior high, which was, um, I guess 8th and 9th grade back then. They didn't have middle school back then, but this school went to 8th grade. So I was going to finally be in 9th grade in public school. It was going to be good. And my parents gave me the devastating news of sending me to this Christian high school. Okay. And I'm like, I don't want to do this. Right. My mom's like, well just do it for me. You were still going to church and stuff with them, but Totally, no, I could put on, totally tuned out. Mostly I could totally put on the show. I knew all the stuff. I mean, I was, I got all day long. I, you know, like we had chapel all the time at school. I went to church on Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I knew all the things. Right, right. But there was no, your book smarts was there, right? There was no, you didn't really know what the good news was still. No. There was no faith with God at all. And, um, so I went to this school and she asked me at the end of the first year, what do you want to do? And I was like, well, there's this really cute girl there that I like. And so purely on that, I stayed. So, hey, it's worked out, you know, all these years later. Um, and then when I was, um, I think when I was 16 and started driving, I probably, um, I probably started going to church with Linda. And, um, her family went to a four square church, so very charismatic, very different, um, you know, like long worship and they had like a band. High production value. They had like, I wouldn't say high production value, but they had a band, like there was drums, you know, guitar, the whole thing. It was like, Oh, this is cool. You know, this is different. And like the pastor was talking, he's, he's like preaching out of the Bible. And. Going verse by verse and explaining what it meant. Yeah. It was just a different experience. I'm like, okay, I'm intrigued. And then, um, you know, Linda's talking to me. Teacher at school is talking to me. Um, and you know, and, and the Holy Spirit is talking to me and my mom's talking to me. Sure. So springtime of my junior year, um, so I'm 17. And one day after school, I'm like, yeah, I, like, I'm, I am ready. And so, um, the teacher and Linda, another friend of mine, you know, we went into, went into a classroom and, you know, I gave my life to Jesus and submitted. And, um, it was, it was just an amazing, powerful experience. And, um, no, I've never been the same since. Yeah. I like that. That's a, that's a good testimony to how sometimes long you have to. Put things in the tumbler before you get a battle and it you know, I would say my faith was still pretty immature For a long time, you know, I'm I'm 21 I'm a They're idiots because I'm 21. I look like I'm about 15. They give me a gun and a badge and handcuffs and they let me arrest people. Right. And, um, I have a very black and white view of what God and church is because I've just been in this a lot. And what the law is. And now I'm like, In this crazy world and, um, like I am arresting people that say they're Christians and all of this crazy stuff. Right. And I was having a crisis of faith. Hmm. And, um, I, I remember distinctly, there was a guy breaking into Jacks up on North College Avenue there. Okay. This is, you know, it's like midnight or early morning hours or something, or trying to get in and Yeah. And I, he's trying to break in and I. I pull up, I'm like the third or fourth cop on scene, and there's, you know, there's a fight with this guy in front of the store going on, and so I'm sprinting over there, and all of a sudden he starts yelling out my name. Pete, Pete, see me. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And this is the guy from church. Oh damn. Yeah. He's like drunk as could be. I am mortified. So embarrassed. You know, we get them hooked up and well, you know, my buddy takes him away and I just, is the cuffs on, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Cuffs on back in the police car. You're going to the jail. So Um, yeah, so I, I was like, that's it, man, this whole God thing, like I'm done. Oh, no shit. And so really, but it was hard to go, it was hard to be in a community then cause I'm working these weird shifts and, you know, um, and so probably, I don't know, the crisis of faith for a year or two. And then, um, you know, again, Linda, she's like, Hey, like we need to get back involved in church and like, yeah, you're right. And, you know, unfortunately. God will meet you where you are. That's a cool thing. Yeah, I love, I love the verse in James. It says, if you draw near to God, he'll draw near to you. And it's when I find myself away from God, it's because I've pulled away because of him. And so if somebody's searching, just like ask God to show himself to you because he will draw near to you. Yeah. And it's a promise. So true. Um, a hundred percent agree with that. And one of the things I was just thinking about was like, one of the things I felt. Back in the day before I accepted faith, which was somewhat through my wife as well, but it was kind of a Guiltiness, you know, like I had to be a better person before I could before you come to God Yeah, of course. Well, and the same thing is relevant with loco thick tank Um, with a peer advisory group and it's, and it's not a church, but people like, people think they have to get to their, their business to a certain point, pretty good before they can be a member of a group like this. Cause they don't want to come in and show their dirty underwear about how they've got these big gaps in their business. No, that's true. I mean, it's true. It's true about church, right? Um, people are right. There's a bunch of hypocrites there. A hundred percent. Come and join us. That's what I say. Like, come and join us. Right. And then like, guess what? When you come into peer advisory. We all have some imposter syndrome. We all got stuff going on in our businesses that we're not quite sure about. But it's good to get a couple of real strengths, right? And you've got some real gap areas that you might not even be aware of. And that person sitting across from you, maybe they've already solved that problem and they can make that path shorter for you. Or maybe they're an expert in the thing you're struggling with, the finances or the marketing or sales or just leadership, or how do you, how do you hire this person? Yeah. Do I really need to fire this person? I gotta let go of this key person, it's gonna hurt. Yeah, we've been there. Let's walk you through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because there is no new story, almost. You know, when you read the Bible, you're like, damn, these people might have lived back in Israel a long, long time ago, but they still had a lot of the same little challenges. You read Proverbs or Psalms and you're like, Man, that guy's thinking a lot of the things I've thought before. I mean, read Genesis, you're gonna find all kinds of debauchery and evil human stuff, right? And it's like, this is not a G rated Bible. No, it's not. It's X rated, actually. That's fair. Um Oh, we haven't talked about a recent mission trip that you've done. Oh, yeah. Um, which was very interesting, and I hope we, let me do a quick time check, oh, we got time. So, you went to Tanzania. Yeah. Um, just, what was it, this fall? Uh, no, March of last year. Last March, okay. Yeah, so just about a year ago. So, talk to both the, the call of missions, as well as the experience that, uh, that, cause you had a, you were like at a super remote part of the country. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really unique circumstance. Yeah. Yeah. So we go to a foundation's church, uh, down in Loveland, non denominational church. And, um, the missions pastor approached me and said, Hey, I'm taking a small team of guys, um, to Tanzania and we're going to be like in this really remote location. And it is not going to be glamorous. We're going to be camping in tents and bucket showers. And it's like, if you want to go, I'd like for you to go. I'm like, all right, let me talk to Linda and we'll pray about it. And we did. And You know, it was a pretty, it was a pretty quick. Yes. Um, you know, I got time. I, this would be an adventure. Um, I'm up for this thing. So, yeah, so we went, um, so six of us went over to, um, Tanzania. It's about 30 hours to get there. It's in Eastern Africa. And, um, we went out, we worked Bostic. They're amazing, amazing people. And, um, we drove, we went into Arusha, which is if you're going to go, yeah, See, um, the Serengeti or Andra crater, or if you're gonna go climb Mount Kilimanjaro, you're gonna fly into a Rusa. Oh, okay. Okay. So that's where we flew into. And, um, Kilimanjaro is in Kenya, or is it Tennessee? It's in Tanzania. Oh it is? Okay. So, um, I think it's Kenya's just to the north. So Kenya had the two tallest peaks in Africa. When the, and then when they, um, divided up Tanzania, Tanzania didn't really have anything. Okay. And Kenya was really nice, so they gave them Mount Kilimanjaro. have this. So it's probably a mistake in hindsight. Right, probably. But, given all the tourism that happens there and what not. Okay, so I'm in the right ballpark. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, for some reason I just had Kilimanjaro in Kenya. I just, I guess K with K, I don't know. Yeah, um. So yeah, so we drove out, um, eight hours into the bush. After a 14 flight, whatever. We spent a day in Arisha and then we drove out and we spent a week out there. And we built a, um, basically a pole barn, but a shade and rain structure that the local people there will eventually put walls onto and, um, you know, turn that into a church. And, um, two evangelists that live way out there, um, to the Hadza people, which are the last, um, hunter gatherers. Tanzania, they may be the last ones in Africa, actually. Um, there's less than 2000 of them. So they're kind of minimally contacted. Tribe, basically. Yep, yep. Is there Rainforest there that they Uh, no, it is, um, Plainsman, yeah. Plains, um, it's near Lake Yasi, um, there, which is a huge, huge lake and they just, they cover a huge area. Um, and hunters, just hunters and gather. I mean, they've been doing it since the beginning of them being in the area. Yeah. And they have a What? And gather what? Do you mind if I ask? Um, yeah. So one of the, there was this really old guy that would come into camp and we asked him one day, like, how old are you? And he's like, I don't know, maybe 194, 000 years old or something. My guess is he was maybe 50 or 60, but he looked like he was probably over a hundred years old. Whoa. Um, and his, um, the biggest animal he's ever killed was a giraffe. Okay. Um, and then they, they kill lots of, you know, if they can get a piece of it With guns and stuff? Oh no. Or are they like, stone tools and like ropes and Bows and arrows. Okay. Bows and arrows. Okay. Criminal I should have, I should have brought one. That would have been cool. That's very cool. So they, um, they have this poison made out of rosewood Okay. That they use for big animals. Alright. Um, and they'll put it on the end of it, so Um, after we had built the, the church structure, we had a worship service on Sunday, all of the tribes came in and this guy came in that had all his bow and all his arrows and, um, we were talking to him through translator and, um, He was showing us this arrow and it was it was quite larger than all the others and it had all this It had this compound just gunk on it. Yeah, and guys like don't touch that by the way That's poisonous. Oh, okay. And then afterwards he's like you guys might and we were holding the arrow not touching the point Oh, yeah, you know and and a lot of the arrows some of them are just wood for like small game Yeah, you know for a rat or a small or something small Um, critters or birds, right. They'll hunt birds. Right. Um, and then some of'em are medium sized and they'll hammer out a spoon and then file it into a very sharp point. Hmm. Um, and make a, I mean, it looks like a. An arrowhead that you could go buy a X or something, you know? Yeah. Interesting. They're not forging their own metals. No. But they can take it. But it's made at the, you know, the shaft is a stick of wood, and then the fletching are, are, um, feathers from a real bird that they killed. Sure. And I've got one in my house that, um, we bought Trader with'em and Sure. Um, interesting. Yeah. And so some of these folks have become Christians even though they're living this country. Yeah, they're lifestyle. They're, they're considered, um, an unreached or unreached people, so there's about 40 that are believers there. There's an evangelist there that's from the Hadza, uh, people. And, um, so he's been working with them and they don't have any written language. So that's a barrier. And so it's really, it's, it's just making disciples, which is, you know, it turns out that's how Jesus did it. He didn't write the Bible. He just told 12 people and then they told a bunch of people here we are today on the other side of the world, you know, knowing about this amazing God we have. Right. So they're doing that same thing in Tanzania. And it was really, you know, we went over there to help with this project. We funded it and did a lot of the building. But, um, there's a church in Arusha that is funding this evangelist and, um, that's out in that area. And so they're trying to reach their unreached people in their country. Which is really a cool thing. And is Tanzania a Christian nation overall? If you look on the, um, like one of the global reports, it'll say it's about 52 percent Christian. But, um, Islam is on the rise. Islam on the Sure. Well, all across Africa, really. Yeah, and on the, that eastern horn, so going down, I forget the, what the country is above, Somalia, it starts with a P or something, but then there's Somalia, then there's Tanzania, Um, I think actually Zambia, Tanzania, coming down the coast, so, on the coast of all of those countries, Um, they're almost all Muslim, but that goes back to the slave trading days in the 1500s, 1600s, because the Arab traders would come down and, and grab slaves. Well, if you're Muslim You can't be enslaved. And so the people on the coast converted. I'll be a Muslim. And then they would go into the interior and capture other tribes and then sell them as slaves. Oh, gotcha. And then they'd run back up the coast into the Middle East and sell them. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So there's quite the history there. And so Christianity has kind of evolved off the coast in some respects. Right. In other areas. It's almost prey animals for these Muslim slave traders. Well, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of persecution in different parts of Africa because of that. So. So, like I say, in Tanzania, along the coast, you'll see a lot of Islam influence, and then you'll see, um, you'll see more Christian influence in the middle of the country. This is a heavy topic, but, like, with the rise of Islam, like, across Africa, even, like, Oh, yeah. Niger is at threat, probably, of being overtaken soon, even though it was historically very Christian in different places, but especially, like, Europe. Like, UK. Like, some of these countries in 30 years are going to be majority Muslim nations at the pace they're currently on. Is there something that the West should do about this? Well, I think Europe's got to figure that out. I think that's not our problem. Well, not right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we have, we have a big ocean between us, right? Um, I think the little reported issue is like in Sudan and the Congo, you're talking about Niger. Um, like Suzanne. The, the Christians are just being driven out, you know, in the civil war that's going on and they're massively persecuted. Um, you know, you can, if you, I mean, the crazy thing is you convert in one of these countries, you're going to probably be murdered for your faith. Um, you know, nothing that we faith, we face here in America or even in the Western world. So it's, you know, it's a real, well, and some of the strongest. faith proclaimers in the world are in Africa right now, too. Right. You know, because, you know, nothing brings out strong faith like strong persecution. Yeah, persecution. But, damn. Exactly. Um, I guess, is there, is there a role for, and we can shift to politics from here in some ways, but is, like, recently Trump just called out the South African president for being like, Right. Right. Hey, no preaching to stadiums full of people about how you're going to kill the white farmers, please, like, that's kind of like, right, pretty like we're doing apartheid 2. 0. Yeah, 2. 0 is worse than 1. 0. Right? Like, and that's the challenge of learning this as a nation, right? Kind of, yeah, like, like, how is there a place for politics in this conversation? Or is do we just let those countries kind of Do what they're going to do, you know, you know, I'm, um, so I don't think politics is going to be the savior of the world, right? I think we already have one of those. Yeah. Um, you know, I think an interesting place to look at politically is Rwanda. Okay. Um, that had the, you know, had the genocide there, right? Yeah. Um, and I forget the names of the two tribes, but basically, Okay. If, if we were looking at them as Westerners, we'd go, look, these are the same people. It turns out they are, but they were just in two tribes and one completely murdered the others. But what's been going on over there the last, gosh, I think it's almost 30 years now is reconciliation. And there's some amazing reconciliation going on. I heard a story probably six months ago about a woman who's family had been murdered and they murdered him mostly with machetes. So they're hacking people apart. Yeah. And her whole family was killed by her next door neighbor. Wow. So the next door neighbor, so there was um, basically like Nuremberg type trials in Rwanda for probably over a decade. And so her neighbor was sentenced to prison and she still lives in her house. She's a widow. So in, in the majority of the world, if you're a widow, you're in rough shape. Yeah, yeah. It's a man's world and you're just going to take advantage of it in one way or another or lots of ways, economically and everything else. Um, so this guy served his term and he was released back home. So the murderer of her family is now living next door to her. Okay. Like 20 years later. Yeah. Right. And there was, um, there's a reconciliation project going on there. And, um. She was able to, to work through that with him and forgive him. Okay. Um, but she's got this massive trauma, right? Right. And, um, and that Now, is it Christians and Islam there? Uh, that In Rwanda? No, it was, it was a racial, it was a racial thing. Okay. But again, they're all, if you looked at it, they all seem to be the same race, right? Right. So that's, it's always a tribal thing. And I learned a lot about tribes when I was in Africa. Sure. It's very much, it's very much who you are. Yeah. Um, there, we, I, I don't think we have anything comparable to that here. No, I mean, like in the little community I grew up in, like there were Perlerbergs and there were Johnsons and there were bears and there was almost a family clan kind of thing like, uh, Ireland would have or something, you know, but nothing like tribe tribes. Yeah. So I don't, so that's on the political solution in Rwanda, even though there's been, um, A judicial process. Yeah. Yeah. But really the healing has taken something beyond the individual level. Yeah, which is, you know, it's a spiritual thing that is healing that country. Um, I would circle back to a statement you just made, which was, I don't think politics really solves anything. I like that kind of talk. I didn't, I didn't think, I just, it's not the savior is what I'm saying. Okay. So, um, what, uh, where, what is your political, Yeah. Perspective and how has it evolved maybe over this journey? Um, uh, I've probably been conservative, I think. The whole way. The whole way. Yeah. So when I, I mean, when I was 18, I voted for Reagan. Okay. The, I guess his second time. I don't think I was old enough to vote. Yeah, yeah. And I wasn't old enough to vote in 80. Perot was my first vote. So I've always been a wild card in that department. Oh, there you go. Yeah. That libertarian streak. Right. Well, he was independent, right? He was, but kind of libertarian. He just screwed it up, though. He could have won that election. If he, if he would have stayed steady, maybe because he was in and then he got out, remember that and then that killed it and then he got back in. Yeah, that may be so, but the deep state was already in existence. It was. So I don't really call those odds that strong. That's true. He probably got whacked. That would have been Trump 1 0 back in the 90s. The guy would have used a scope and took him out actually. Right. Instead of a freaking open science gun. Knowing what they're doing. Yeah. I digress. So, so, so conservative in general. Yep. Not libertarian per se, because you're more socially conservative than what most libertarians would say. Yeah, probably. Some of those family values are pretty important, but also fiscal conservative, don't spend all my money. Right. So you've been kind of digging the doge Or don't spend any of my money the way they're doing it right now. You've been digging the doge, uh, investigations here. You feel like that's okay? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think they'll, they'll get it sorted out here. A lot of court stuff going on right now. I mean, I, um. I read something today about, you know, how, um, Obama had pushed executive powers and Biden had pushed executive powers and Trump is pushing executive powers. And, you know, the court will weigh in on that and it'll get, it'll get settled. But I guess my real question is. Like, look at all of this corruption that they're showing. Who, who's actually for that part of it? So, um, you know, it's not, it's not like we should get there by any means, but like, this is, this stuff's egregious. We have to stop a lot of this. Like, this is egregious stuff. Yes, we can't be spending millions on Sesame Street in Iraq, that's actually a good use of funds in comparison to most of it. I mean, I was reading today. K cups for the FBI for 1, 200 apiece. Like, who's getting rich off of that about a coffee mug for a C 17 that costs 1, 300. Right. And instead of, when the handle breaks, instead of repairing the handle, they're buying a new coffee cup. Are you kidding me? Like, what? They think they're billionaires, but they're government employees. It's like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Um. Uh, Gulf of America? I think it's hilarious. Doesn't offend you, neither is it necessary kind of thing. Right, no. I also love the Mexican president's response. Which was what? This is Mexicana. She's showing all of America, you know. How about, uh, Canada is 51st state? Oh, I was going to ask this. I chickened out for one of the first times in my life. At the, uh Oh, be brave. Come on. Well, we had the, the goose came and did a state of the state kind of address at Farm Ranch Community College. Oh, okay. And they had like an open questions segment and it was, it was really pretty disturbing. Honestly, the whole tenor of it was like, Trump's kicking ass and there's basically nothing we can do, but we can stay strong and fight in the streets if we need to. Oh man. But the question I was going to ask that I chickened out about was, uh, Do you think it would be better for Canada to be, like, ten smaller states or just one big state? I, I don't know. Um, I mean, I think Canada should figure out their own things. We don't need them. You know, I don't, no, I don't think we need them. You know, the reality is that in the, the first hundred miles of the border, So if you go the north, our northern border, their southern border, 100 miles up, that's like 85 percent of their population. Over 90 even maybe, yeah. So, why do we want the rest of that? Well, because they got a ton of natural resources, farm, farmland, I mean that's, that's, that's. But it's also all frozen, so. Well, for now, but global warming, of the biggest thing I don't understand is why is Canada all focused on global warming stuff? Like why wouldn't you want global warming if you're Canada? It's almost in it. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's in us. Right. Warm it up, Chris. no, I think, um, I think what is, um, fascinating about what Trump's doing in Canada is a prime example is he, he throws these outrageous things out there. Right. And then it turns out there's actually some, um, he's smart as a fox and the whole deal, I mean, look at the Panama canal, right? Like China has a death grip on both sides of that by managing these ports on either end and. We were getting, you know, the shaftiness. We built this thing, right? And so, I mean, he threw the, he, um, he negotiates like a business person. And he does things that are unconventional. He says the things that nobody else will say. And so he, you know, I mean, it was before he got inaugurated, right? Back in December. Hey, the Panama Canal should be ours again. And everybody's like, where did this come out of? Well, it turns out it's been a strategic threat for a couple of decades. Oh, yeah. That he's finally calling. The cards on the table like this has to stop well I have no doubt that most people in Greenland would be happier in ten years if they were part of the u. s. Yeah Canada not green. I know Greenland. Maybe is it my strategic? Yeah up there and I think they'd be happier and we'd be happier Yeah, probably But, but isn't, so Greenland's another, so this is an outrageous thing. We're going to buy Greenland or whatever, right? Well, interestingly, Denmark now all of a sudden is interested in putting 2 billion into strategic defense of that. Oh, well, that's not a bad deal for us. Right. That's not our 2 billion, it's theirs. And it turns out actually we're kind of aligned. I believe they're a NATO member, right? So, hey, yeah, Trump's crazy. I thought Trump was going to, uh, end the Ukraine war on day one. Yeah. That is one of his campaign promises he's not accomplished yet. Is that, uh, stubbornness by Europe? By Zelensky? By Putin? What do you think's going on? I don't know, you know, so today's February 11th. I saw Zelensky. Oh, we're coming up on the anniversary date soon. Yeah, so I saw Zelensky, um, said, said something about, I think we can get a deal done today. And then also, um, an American, uh, Trump and Whitkoff got an American released today. Yeah, I saw that. That's been in, uh, Russia. So things are happening, probably. Yeah, so I think things are happening. Be a little patient. Well, Biden did about all he could to fuck that shit up. Well, to keep it going. Right. You know, I mean. Shoot missiles into Russia, long range missiles, right before he leaves office. Like, what are you talking about? And does anybody believe the 900 billion is all still in Ukraine? Because I don't, by the way. I don't. No. I mean, it's just, it's not there. It's, you know, and, um, I think there's been reports of many of the munitions we've spent sent over there during lots of, right. They're not lots of other places. So, you know, it's going to be terrible if our military has to fight, um, against our weapons that we let get out of control. I mean, I think that's going to be horrible and it doesn't, that does not in any way justify Russia. Going in there and trying to take over Ukraine. That is unjust. It's evil. It's not right. I think one of the things that's really at risk of this is, like, all the acceleration and drone technology between Ukraine and Russia during this fight. I don't know if the U. S. is prepared for that kind of technology. Clearly not. We just announced three new Warships, the, the George Bush, the Bill Clinton or something like that. And it's like, in retrospect, maybe those weren't the best names to choose. Well, and just like the Russia's Black Sea fleet got taken out in a matter of a few hours by a bunch of heavily armed drones. I'm not sure. Supposedly is. Yeah. Bohunk back country place. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw something on a feed on Telegram a few weeks ago that, um, Israel has been doing. Um, this like, um, uh, like shark tank for drones, anti drone technology. And, um, they were, they were, had a big demonstration day. So my guess is they're ahead of us and we'll probably buy technology from Israel for sure, because we're going to need it. It seems likely, you know, hopefully not like, I'd love to think things just settled down, but I think. You know, it's pretty clear that we can't like track balloons, right? I'm guessing we can't track drones very well. So something's got to change with all of that. Cause that probably is a threat that we can't, you know, counter right now. Right. Well, and how many of these. Millions of illegal immigrants are Arab people with a drone in their backpack, you know Well, some of them that have been arrested have been right, you know, so yeah, but but even more than that I think it's the transnational crime happening on the border. Yeah, and I mean, the, the cartels got a lot of money. They're, they're pretty savvy that borders have always been valuable. You know, there's always something that's worth more on one side of the border than the other side of the border, regardless of what kind of border you're talking about. We've got a cartel and they start shooting at our border agents or police or whatever, you know, from a drone. I mean, why wouldn't they do it if they could buy that technology? For sure. Um, I think we covered a pretty good chunk. Anything else in the faith family politics segments you'd like to hit? Um, you know, I think just, Those are big politics, but I think politics is local, local to, you know, and so, um, you know, one of the reasons that I was always part of the chambers in Northern Colorado, I was part of all the advocacy kind of, yeah, Greeley Loveland, four columns is that advocacy and, um, you know, we can, I, I'm frustrated by how much politics is in business. I think it should, I probably lean more to you on a libertarian bent on that. Like, just leave us alone and let us, let us do business, you know, okay. So I think you know, I think the things that the chambers are doing here, you know down in Denver matter Even though the way things are lined up right now It's pretty anti business in Denver, but you know, they can they can get some wins on the margins of that. I think that's important Yeah, yeah, you know, it's important locally too. Yeah, so I would I would share that plug like for for business community Members, business owners that aren't a part of a local chamber because you don't have time, because you don't want to spend the 1, 000 or 2, 000 a year for membership, or whatever that is for your business. I think most of them you can join for like 400 or 450 bucks or something a year. You can be a member and just show your support because, at least here locally, I think the Chambers are kind of one of the strongest voices for business, and that's what you're buying. You know, you're not buying a marketing group or networking group. You're not buying a new club to be a part of. You're buying a small part of a voice for business. Right. Well, and it's, and it's even closer than that too, you know, Fort Collins City Council right now is trying to figure out how to get in a minimum, crazy minimum wage, which is ridiculous. Go look at a job listing and try to tell me anybody that's hiring at minimum wage. The market won't support it. You know, the market won't support it. It's, I mean, most people are, I think minimum 12. 50, something like that. Uh, most jobs are starting at 16, 17, 18 an hour in this market in Northern Colorado. We don't need a minimum wage. The market is handling it. And it, but they'll put the minimum wage up to 20 bucks or something, and that's fine. Then that moves it up. That means I got to hire people. Everybody that's getting paid 18 has to go up to 20, and everybody that's getting paid 20 has to go up to 23 because, well, I'm not a minimum wage person. Right, exactly. And now all the consumer prices and the business prices have to go up to 20. That was one of our kind of secret sauces early on is we paid about a buck fifty above what other people were doing. And then Colorado put in a manum, the higher minimum wage with the increases. Yeah. And it compressed wages and now my competitors were paying the same. They were still doing crappy work, but we're competing for the same, like, well, you know, it's like, well, this is a better place to work. Well, you guys pay the same, but you hold me accountable and make me work. Yeah, that's part of the agreement. So, you know, so that kind of stuff, I think too, we don't have time as business owners, but then, you know, the chambers, what they're doing, they can keep doing it. An eye in that crazy stuff for us. Well, you talked about the complete shortfall of workers during that 2021 period. Yeah. Right? Well, and that was, a lot of that was caused by just people having some excess cash flowing through, you know. Oh, yeah. And they didn't have to take those crappy jobs or whatever, you know. Well, remember they, they were paying them 600 a week extra on unemployment. Yeah. So that's over 15 an hour. And I'm like, so what does it take? I mean, as part of the thing in 21, like what's it take to get somebody off the couch? Right. Like, well, it's more than 15, right? Because I'm making 15 sitting on the couch. I get to play with my kids, go to the park, whatever. Right. If I take your 15, you can actually want me to show up to work for 40 hours a week. Yeah. That was one of the most foolish things I ever saw. It was complete insanity, but it was part of that. That this long running thing of we got to get a fifteen dollar minimum wage. Yeah, which also when I remember when you think that was strategic in some ways. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. A hundred percent. I remember in, um, whenever that first came up in Denver, they were showing McDonald's workers and this guy's like, I've been in McDonald's for five years and I'm only making 30 cents an hour more than, and I'm like, Well, then you're clearly not contributing any value to this company because McDonald's would love to promote you. They would love to do a manager if you don't. And guess what? McDonald's has the highest number of millionaires working for them that have high school education. Because you can actually start as a fry cook on the line, and you can own a McDonald's. You can work your way up, and if you work hard, you're an entrepreneur, you can own one of those things, and you can become a millionaire. Um, so don't tell me, if you're doing the same thing, then you're adding no value to that company. Acknowledged. It's just crazy. It's local. It's, you know, statewide and it's, it's the nation. So, no, I, a light hand, you know, and I think the same politics is to me, the more decisions you can make local, the better. And the more there tries to be like a strong federal government making us states all the same, the more bad ideas. Yeah. And I think we should rejoice if, if some of this stuff can actually happen at the federal level and get rid of some of these regulations, then. It should come back, and we can regulate it the Colorado way, the Northern Colorado way, like, the way, how do we want to get the influence of the Soros organizations and the bill writers out of the state legislatures and all these things. Yeah, any of them, just get them out, you know, so, and, and let, let business create and let the market forces. Um, actually do what they do. They do it very efficiently. Yeah. I think we're ready for the loco experience. All right. Your craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners. Crazy experience. Um, I don't know how crazy it was, but I think it's very unique. Yeah. When I was 10 years old, uh, my grandfather, uh, my grandmother put me on a plane in San Francisco. Hmm. And I flew by myself to Hong Kong. Oh. And I spent the summer over there, um, with my best friend in California. Okay. And we His family was from there or something? No, his family had a sailboat built in, um, Taiwan. Okay. And they sailed it to Hong Kong. Okay. And they were outfitting it for a while there. And so we spent the summer in Hong Kong on their sailboat, sailing around and Um, you know, being pirates on the sailboat and all of that fun stuff. And then his family sailed that around the world over the next couple of years. And this was like in the 80s probably? Um, I was 10 so it was 1973. Wow, early 70s. Yeah. Wow. Um, which was like kind of just as China was opening up to the world, I guess Hong Kong was a little more open, but Hong Kong was, I don't think, uh, yeah, I don't think China was open yet. Yeah. Maybe, maybe Nixon and Kissinger started talking about a little bit, but not much. So, but Hong Kong, I mean, to me it was effectively Chinese culture. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, so you got to experience that firsthand when almost nobody. Do anything about any of it, right? You know, we were still seeing cartoons with the little plant eyes and the little funny hat, right? I have one of those hats, actually. Well, because they're real, you know. It's not just a cartoon, it's a real hat. It's a straw hat that they wore in the fields, you know. And they shed rain really good. They did. So talk to me about that experience. Like, anything extraordinary about it? Like, were they, were they fluent and stuff? Or they had family? No, I mean, we, um, they had the sailboat. Um, docked, you know, that was run by England at the time. So it was a British Harbor. We were a bunch of English speakers. Yeah. Yep. And, um, you know, summer, so we didn't have to do school or anything like that. And, um, I don't know if, you know, I don't know if their, his parents spoke any, um, Chinese. I don't remember back then, but you know, I mean, we'd go into the markets and. You saw all kinds of crazy stuff that you'd never see in America, you know, and like a, a bowl or a big plate of shark fins for shark fin soup and, you know, baby chickens that apparently you eat them whole when they're little chicks and I don't know, uh, apparently, yeah, it's good when the claws tickle your throat or something, you want the bones to be a little crispy so they break easier. Um, but man, I learned to love Chinese food. I think one of the amazing, you know, we got to sail a lot. So that was fun. Yeah. Yeah. One of the amazing experience. We were out on a bay for a couple of days and it was fairly early in the morning and, um, just crystal clear water. Like you'd see all the way down to the bottom. I was getting ready to dive off of the boat. And, um, this giant manta ray comes swimming under the boat and I grabbed the, like the two poles there and it was, I mean, it was huge, you know, I don't know, maybe it was two feet. I was a 10 year old, so I don't know, but it, I mean, it looked massive. I know they're big. Oh, wow. And we, you know, we'd go snorkeling. Diving for stuff. And it was, it was just fun. I mean, we would, we'd climb up the mast there, you know, that the ladders going up the mast, we'd jump into the water and really cool. It was fun. World expanding at the time. Yeah, absolutely. And. I mean, they put me on a plane by myself, you know? Right. And sent me over there. Right. I'll say the, um, they were stewardess at the time, but the flight attendants took good care of me. Yeah. Yeah. well, your parents must have been at least a little bit free range as well to allow that. Uh, you know, my, be sick of you. You know, it was my grandmother. She was, she was fierce and she was like, oh, he can do this. He'd be fine. You know, I don't know how she talked my parents out of that. I love it, but, uh, I love it. Yeah, it was cool. I'm glad they let me do it. Well. Thank you. Thanks for sharing the time. Oh, It's been fun. Thanks for letting me learn a lot more about the industry, and thanks for becoming part of the team at LocoThink Tank. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's a great community. Alright. It'll be fun to be a part of it. Well, Godspeed, and we'll see you next time. Alright, thanks.