EXPERIENCE 204 | Building Health on a Strong Foundation - Jane Brewer, Upper Cervical Chiropractor and Owner of Precision Chiropractic

Jane Brewer grew up in a diverse neighborhood in the heart of New York City, with a constant heart for people and service and adventure.  She signed up for AmeriCorps to work in support of Habitat for Humanity projects, and at 22 revealed that she didn’t have a driver’s license when asked to drive a truck and trailer to a project!  

A few short years later she drove herself to Crested Butte, Colorado for a job on a ski hill, and worked a series of small jobs before landing in 911 dispatch.  Her journey turned after a beneficial season with a local chiropractor, and an encouraging word - and she landed in the Front Range of Colorado fresh out of chiropractic school in Atlanta.  This year, she’s celebrating 10 years of growth, and the purchase of a new office location!  

Jane has been a member of LoCo Think Tank for over 5 years, and hers is a story of steady growth, constant love for her clients and community, and building healthy lives on strong foundations.

The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/

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Jane Brewer grew up in a diverse neighborhood in the heart of New York City, with a constant heart for people and service and adventure. She signed up for the AmeriCorps plan to work in supportive Habitat for Humanity projects, and at 22 revealed that she didn't have a driver's license when her manager asked her to drive a truck and trailer to a project. A few short years later, she drove herself to Crested Butte, Colorado, for a job on a ski hill. and worked a series of small jobs before landing in 9 1 1 dispatch. Her journey turned after a beneficial season with a local chiropractor and an encouraging word, and she landed in the Front Range of Colorado fresh out of chiropractic school in Atlanta. This year, she's celebrating 10 years of growth and the purchase of a new office location. This year, she's celebrating 10 years of growth and the purchase of a new office location. Jane has been a member of Loco Think Tank for over 5 years and hers is a story of steady growth. Constant love for her clients and community and building healthy lives on strong foundations. Enjoy. Let's have some fun. Welcome to the Low Cove Experience podcast. On this show, you'll get to know business and community leaders from all around Northern Colorado and beyond. Our guests share their stories, business stories, life stories, stories of triumph and of tragedy. And through it all, you'll be inspired and entertained. These conversations are real and raw, and no topics are off limits. So pop in a breath mint and get ready to meet our latest guest. Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is longtime Loco Think Tank member and doctor of chiropractic Jane Brewer with Precision Chiropractic, and I love how you look with your blue teal hat with the blue teal light in the background. I do expect color coordinated lighting on all of my podcasts. Yes. Yes. Well, you said this is your first time One of your first non Zoom podcasts. Correct. Yeah, a lot of the interviews I've done have been through a screen, so this is different. Well, and they're probably looking for, like, your smart girl stuff in chiropractic, and particularly, what is the thing that you're the expert on? This is a mouthful. I have a credential. It's a DCCJP. So it stands for Diplomate in Chiropractic Cranio Cervical Junction Procedures. It just means I'm a head and neck specialist. Yes. Yeah. Oh, in the Atlas. Correct. Right. That's the, that's the Uppermost vertebrae in the spine. Juncture, okay. Yeah. I was trying to remember it, trying to remember it. Good job. I did. Yes. But not really. Uh, so You had it, yeah. So you're one of like, Really small number of people with that designation, like a few hundreds and thousands, maybe. Excuse me. There's been about 60 of us that have completed the program. The fourth cohort is going through now, so we'll add to the ranks here when they make it successfully through the program. Oh, wow. And are you out for two years or something? Yes. Uh, finished up in 2022. Okay. Dang. I remember sitting down with you near my office when you, took me through all the steps of trying to make the decision of joining that program. And that was before I was a member. Oh, is that right? Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I'm glad that that was impactful. I remember that conversation. I didn't remember how impactful it was the right decision for you. It was. It was. And in different ways than I may have anticipated in the beginning, but. All right. So, um, I guess let's just introduce your, your business to the world here, uh, in another way. another fashion than all the years, whatever you've done before. But, um, what is Precision Chiropractic all about? We are a chiropractic clinic and we provide really specialized chiropractic services that really care for folks with head and neck issues. For example, we take care of a lot of people with migraines, headaches, different vertigo conditions. A lot of folks recovering from concussion, traumatic brain injury, jaw issues, ear issues because of related it is to the head and the neck. So, kind of especially for you, compared to a lot of chiropractors have a reputation as being like a backcracker. Sure. Right? But you're really more of a cranial specialist, anything in that area, the top of the neck. And it's messing your stuff up. Yeah, that's my bread and butter. And of course the next connected on down. You can do the back cracking if you need to, whatever is useful. I, you know, any adjusting that we do in my practice, it doesn't involve much forceful twisting, popping, cracking. That's a very traditional chiropractic. Okay. method of practice and there's other ways and what we do, especially with the upper neck, because it is a very delicate area. And in my opinion, it requires a very dedicated and careful approach to managing and caring for it, especially in those more complex cases with people who have had injuries. Um, it's a very calculated adjustment. It's very gentle. It is designed for the individual based on very precise measurements that we've taken from imaging. And it's an instrument, uh, guided adjustment. Oh. with your hands or you mean the instrument actually? So there's a instrument that actually delivers the force because it's exactly reproducible every time. Is it a little plunger thingy? It's, I'm shocked I haven't been to your, I haven't been through your chair. I know. Well, you're going to, I'm going to be moving here in the springtime. So you'll have to come see our new office. I will, uh, I'll pay for an appointment once you get settled into your new space. Well, first step, consultation. Okay. And that's always complimentary. Okay. Perfect. But yeah, I mean, I take care of all chiropractic cases and I would say the most common reason, of course, people think to visit a chiropractor is they have some kind of neck or back pain. That's I think what chiropractic is known for. Sure. But. with what I do, I really look and it's a little different, but, um, we really look at the upper neck as a structural foundation. And we're not used to thinking about the foundation of sitting at the top. You know, we don't build a house from the ceiling down, but what I try to do in an initial consultation with the folks that come see me is just teach them why from a structural and a neurological perspective, that if, This is going to sound silly, but if your head's not on straight, if your head's not sitting over top of the rest of your spine, everything else is going to pay the price for it, both from a structural standpoint, leading to all kinds of postural compensations and aches and pains elsewhere. But from a neurological standpoint, that's about as close to the brain, the source of all those signals as you can get. And so if you've got an obstruction there, it's going to create problems downstream as well. I've got, uh, And I'm shocked that I haven't, but I just, I was, so I, I used to go to chiropractor once in a while when I was banking, you know, me and Jill both had income and discretionary and a lot more sitting stuff. And then I was, you know, food tracking and completely broke and then early stage think tank still completely broke. Yeah. Still not wealthy, but I could get a, you know, a couple of adjustments if I wanted to, but I've got like a straight neck. Yeah. Like probably you've seen that a lot of times. Absolutely. I still do some of the exercises that a chiropractor from 18 years ago told me I could do to try to help progress for sure. And that curve in the neck is really important. We developed that in infancy. That's why tummy time is so important for babies. When babies start to pick their head up and tilt their head up, that's when that curve develops. Well, I assume my brain is heavier than most people's. You got a big noggin. Well, I was thinking I'm extra smart. Oh, big brain, heavy head. Just big melon. So, uh, what's your team is you're the only doctor I am the only doctor currently And we've always been a two person team. I've always had one right hand woman. So for 10 years, I've employed just three incredible people who have become really close friends. And I feel like that's really special too, to create that opportunity for somebody else. So. We've always been a two person team as I move into this new office that I keep mentioning. Yeah, yeah. I will hire a second clinical assistant because it'll help free me up to do some of the things that only I could do. But still, probably you'll stay the only doctor you have interest in. I, you know, I, I do. And I think There's a couple motivations behind me wanting to bring in an associate doctor. First is, of course, for them. You can take a vacation without your clients missing you. Yeah, that's, that's a big deal on my end. I'm sure. That time freedom. For lifestyle. It's, when I choose to leave, it's a very intentional choice because, you know, again, two sides of that coin too, my patients aren't getting the care that they need and I have no income. Yeah, yeah. And by going back to maybe hiring another doctor, I've applied with two of the chiropractic colleges, um, All I, as far as I know, all of the chiropractic schools require you do some kind of externship or clinical experience before you graduate. Try before you buy that way. Exactly. So with the two, the school that I went to and another school that's located in South Carolina, I've applied now to host interns. So I think the next time I do go down that path, they will have to spend at least, you know, a quarter. In my office. Yeah, yeah, not on my dime, right but also to see if we're good match for each other Yeah, for sure. Well, they want that too. Yeah, because I Mean most chiropractors eventually want to have their own practice Or maybe not. I maybe it used to be that way, you know 20 years ago or something, but maybe it's not as much I'm not sure either and there's a few options, but either way they can't do it right out of school It was what I was going to say. Like, they're just not smart enough. I know, but you're an unusual person. Plus you were, you were older than average. So you already had life interaction skills and stuff. You're not like, excuse me, sir. Can I be your chiropractor? In the line of the grocery store. Excuse me. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so tell me about this new, you're buying a building. You're buying a space. Was it a building? A condo space? Where is it at? After 10 years of. paying somebody else's mortgage and I'm going to be paying my own. So I feel really proud about that. Well, you should feel proud about that. And we're going to be moving in the springtime. I've got an awesome contractor, actually, this connection pathway through loco, which is pretty cool. Awesome. And you can, you can say their name if you. Oh, so through Moses Horner, our chapter facilitator, he introduced me to Josh Mathis, who owns Projects Limited. So he's going to be doing my tenant finish. Yeah. I'm not familiar, but. Yeah. Super good guy. And it's been awesome working with him so far. But. I'll be moving in the springtime. Our new office is going to be just a straight shot five miles north. So currently I'm near Shields in Sentara. Right. Like by the Bonefish and whatnot. And so if you drive five miles north on County road five, so past crossroads and we're like, The ranch is okay fuzzies. Yeah. Yeah, and you keep going north before you hit 392 it Yeah, right Windsor exit like where the ice rink is exactly so it's in the business It's in the building this part just north of the Better Business Bureau building. Okay, the BBB. Yeah, I'm there all the time Yeah. You'll have to come say hi. Um, you could lobby Moses to move your chapter right there. Okay. But then it'd be kind of awkward. You're like, I just have to go across the hall. No. I like coming up to Old Town Fort Collins. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I live in Fort Collins. I love to come up here. Cool. But you would have room in this new space if you wanted to add a, uh, you, you mentioned that another clinical associate would be first. Yes. So my next hire is going to be another clinical assistant, as far as, you know, somebody that's going to help. chart for me, help direct the flow of patient traffic in the office and just free my time up to actually just focus on caring for people and do the clinical things that only I'm licensed to do. And so I'll have more, one more administrative focused assistant and one more clinical focused assistant. They'll be cross trained. So one of them can take a vacation or have a few days off. Well, that's important for just quality of life and stuff too. You know, one of the interesting things is, uh, Like with local think tank, um, we don't really have to make the sausage, right? The machine kind of runs. And so Alma had, um, Come back from a little trip and then she's trying to plan a trip next November to Japan Oh my gosh, awesome And then I grew up with a group of eight or something But all these other people are like, you know I don't know if I can get enough hours and my boss is gonna be cool with me being gone for ten days in a row and this and that and like You see like local think tank is cool that way. Yeah, like I'm like I'm proud that she's sacrificing some lifestyle to take a trip to Japan. Yeah. A couple of years ago, I decided to effectively salary, I guess, my office manager because I do take a lot of time off. A few years ago, I was taking time off to travel for my double mate program, and I speak at a lot of conferences. And, uh. Every so often we take a personal vacation, and it just never felt right to me to have an employee that would suffer my insane schedule and be like, sorry about your paycheck. I'm going to be out of town this week. And so my office manager now gets It's steady hours, same paycheck every two weeks, no matter whether, you know, there's some weeks we put in, exactly. Yep. And some weeks we have a lot more time off. And so it's just a nice to not have me worry about it and not have them worry about it. Yeah. That's cool. That's smart. Um, So sometime this spring, April, May or something like that. Just depending on how things flow. I think actually in two weeks, we scheduled a date where I'm going to go in there and I'll put on a hard hat and some glasses, and we're going to smash some walls and windows and just demo and get ready to actually build it out. I worked with a. I'm a consultant for a law firm in Atlanta that helps design floor plans for chiropractic practices. So I've learned a lot from being in my space for 10 years about how things should flow in the office and where things should be located and kind of the journey of the patient from when they walk through the door and they stop at the front desk. And this is where a new patient goes. This is where an established patient goes. So it's laid out in much smarter way. Yeah, perfect. Um, and what was your chiropractic school, by the way? I went to life university outside of Atlanta, Georgia. Okay. Okay. And then they're affiliated or not at all with the South Carolina one that you could also take people from independent, just similar, you'd like their style, like their values. I do like they are, uh, more philosophically based chiropractic, you know, you'll find there's chiropractors of many different flavors, I guess. And honestly, some of the schools, their focus isn't even a whole lot of adjusting, which is pretty Mind boggling to me, because that is the one unique skill that as chiropractors we offer to people. And even under the fat umbrella, there are many different ways to adjust the spine. But if you're not doing that, you're not doing the one thing that we're, So if you're just adjusting without having measured first kind of, you're like, well, I don't know where we started. I don't know where we're going. That's exactly right. We'll just do some cracky, cracky and get you on every two weeks schedule. Yeah. We do a lot of objective outcome measuring in my office, a lot of pre and post testing because I mean, If anything else, like, if nothing else, I want to know that I'm influencing the change that I set out to make. Of course that's important to the people I'm taking care of, too. You know, pain levels are, you know, after three months, the pain levels are down 75%. Right. What graded that? Um, and range of motion is, you know, this much more, that kind of thing. Totally. So, Dutch people that are, um, Chiropractic skeptics, uh, maybe, maybe that comes from your own journey or what you've seen, um, since becoming a chiropractor, because I think there's a lot of people, like, I wouldn't, I'm just kind of, Poor, a little bit poor, mostly cheap, you know, so I've, and I've taught myself how to try to do yoga and stretches and different things to be more healthy care. I don't really have, I don't have migraines, I don't have neck pain, thank the Lord, you know. Yeah. So I'm going to start out by saying, I think the spine is a really strange blind spot when it comes to healthcare. And I don't think it's managed very well. You know, it's like, we all think. To get our teeth cleaned. It's like our wiring harness, basically. Can we all get our eyes checked? We get our hearing checked. We have blood work done. The spine is a huge blind spot in that system, and like you just mentioned, it protects the most important thing we have, without which everything else would actually cease to function correctly. Right, right. And so, And these are concepts that I learned, I would say, in my early 30s. I, like you mentioned before, I was older when I went to school. I started chiro school when I was 32 years old. I had an art degree. And so I didn't really have even a whole lot of science experience. I just had a personal life changing experience with my own care, which inspired me to go to school. I just saw that at its purest place, chiropractic just makes sense, that the spine houses the central nerve system. I tell my patients, think about it like the electrical wiring system in your body. And you've got the source up in the brain and those nerve pathways, it's kind of like driving on I 25 every day. We've got three lanes now. When all three lanes of traffic are moving, life is good. We get from point A to point B efficiently. We arrive at our destination, life is good, right? But if there's an obstruction there, if there's an obstruction in one lane, two lanes, if there's an accident, if you know, it's snowed and they haven't plowed and there's an obstruction there, it's going to take you longer. It's going to be more dangerous. The conditions aren't as ideal. It's a really similar concept. If the brain isn't able to communicate over those neural pathways, then some kind of function, and those nerves control everything, every movement we make, everything we sense and feel, how we connect with the world outside of ourselves, and how everything internally is regulated. And if there's an obstruction in those neural pathways, something is going to result in a loss of function there. Do chiropractors make a difference? People with autoimmune disorders sometimes? Certainly. When you think, you know, first of all, you've got the whole gut and brain access, right? Right. And so the brain Has a huge neural network, not only in the spine, but throughout the entire body. And you know, autoimmunity is just a failure of the body to recognize what is innate. And what is a foreign invader, right? And so it's not that we treat those things directly. You know, I'm not. an immunologist, I'm not a cardiologist, like, but we do work with this underlying neural network that coordinates the function of all those things. And I will tell you, in the 10 years I've been doing this, I have seen people's, uh, Crohn's disease or, you know, other autoimmune conditions improve, you know, objectively, you know, they'll go to their medical doctor and their blood work has changed. And it's like, cool, your body's regulating itself a bit better. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Okay, cool. I, uh, I don't know if I've talked to you about, probably not, but I've had, I saw you had a hitch in your giddy up. Yeah. Yeah. Which I believe is, is psoriatic arthritis. I've had psoriasis a couple of times in the last few years, like on the skin, even now into my elbow, there's a little psoriasis thing. Right. Yeah. But I believe that Um, in this case, in last winter, last November, um, it's been causing me swelling in my knee. Some joint issues. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like a, like a little surface almost over my kneecaps. There's a little popping and clicking that shouldn't be there. Me too. But for different reasons. Well, yeah. Mine's not scheme related or anything. I don't think. Um, but it's, it's because, you know, something in my body is kind of telling this area to do some stuff that it shouldn't want to be doing. Or maybe it's not managing inflammation as optimally as it should. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. It's true. We're not taught to think about our bodies in this way. Nobody thinks, Oh, my knee's feeling a little inflamed. I should go have my neck checked. Right. Well, I should probably go to get some acupuncture would be as useful. All of that works with those natural, innate capacity of our body. Exactly. To heal itself because truly. That's how it all happens. We, we heal ourselves. It's better if it's that way. Otherwise, you just kind of get hooked on steroid shots every nine months or whatever. Truly, that's not healing. That's, that's more of a patch than a fix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it gets you out of the woods and there's, don't get me wrong, there's a time and a place for everything. But I think a lot of the folks that come to me, and every so often I even have somebody that walks through my door, they're like, I feel great and I just want to keep it that way. It's like awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've been to actually the, you know, Um, the doctor that started Life University in Marietta, Georgia, Dr. Sid Williams, he was just huge personality, you know, you got this big booing Southern voice and I actually had the privilege of knowing Dr. Sid and he passed away, um, while I was actually in chiropractic school. That's, it's okay. But he, you know, he would say these things and some of them would just stick with you and he'd be like, you either pay now or you pay later. And there's a truth to that, you know, it's, it's hard to measure. Or impossible to measure what might not happen later on down the road because you had the opportunity to take care of yourself now. So it is in that way, a little bit abstract, right? It can be chiropractic. It can be, you know, just spending that 30 minutes a day exercising. It can be drinking one extra glass of water every day. Like it doesn't have to be anything complicated or expensive. That was water. Oh no, yours is tequila too. Just kidding. Um, so I guess, and I want to get into your personal particular story and get the deets on that, but like, since you've been practicing, do you have the authority to share like some real dramatic stories where, you know, you were the main thing that caused somebody really dramatic changes? Yes. And I always want to, Make sure people No, I want to make sure people understand that I'm just a facilitator in that process. I know what to do and when to do it to restore their body's inborn recuperative abilities, right? And so if I take credit for all the good stuff, I've got to take credit for the ones that didn't work too. And I do, you know, but the thing is, Everybody's different. So to answer your question, um, that was my little asterisk at the beginning. Yeah. My little caveat. It's not a magic bullet always in some situations. What people do the 99. 9 percent of the time they're outside of my office also has a huge impact on how their bodies function too. Two bags of Doritos every night on the couch. Right. It isn't going to matter how many adjustments they get every month. I think chiropractors are never as nerdy as when we're in school, like, and we're students and we're just on chiropractic island and surrounded by people who really think the same way. But, you know, we would eat our salad at lunch and be like, this broccoli is going to become my eye tissue tomorrow. But, yeah, you know, That's, that's those, I think from the outside looking in, they would be called these miracle cases, right? Those are the things that keep me really fired up about what I do. And honestly, even the little things that get better, like the person that could check their blind spot easier because they could turn their head better, like that lights me up too. But man, through the years, like I've seen folks go into remission from MS, like they've had post MRI scans, and those lesions have healed. gone away or reduced significantly. That's pretty cool. Along with the associated probably increase in just functionability quality of life. And to me that, like, that's really what it boils down to is the quality of life piece. Right. So that's, that was really cool. Um, I also was caring for a mom who, She did great. She had a lot of TMJ issues that cleared up really well, but I was talking to her. She was on my table one day and she said, Oh, my son, he was, uh, getting towards the end of high school. And he was a really talented baseball player, like was looking to get recruited by colleges. And she said, man, he's, he's not doing well. He was in a massive collision in the outfield. Like, I think he had the impression of that other kid's braces, like in his forehead and he had a pretty serious concussion. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you need to bring him to me. Right. And so she did the very next day, she brought the son in and we did our imaging and she's like, he just hasn't been himself. He hasn't been sleeping. He's not, you know, even close to being able to function to go back to school. I mean, the kid was in a bad way, real serious concussion. And so did imaging. And what happens, you know, I measure the imaging, I craft an adjustment, there's very specific angles and measurements that we, we create for the individual. inflammation within there that's holding it out of place on the spine or something? Well, if you've hit your head hard enough to create a concussive force, there's no way you, you know. It didn't knock your neck out of alignment. So it's, the spine is out of alignment and it's like, what is, is it muscles that are supposed to keep it in alignment? Yeah. There's muscles, there's ligaments, but the, you know, when it comes to concussion, there's a lot of factors there and it's really cool. I read a lot of research, but there, is a lot that connects with fluid dynamics. And so by that, I mean, blood flow to the brain, that blood flow brings oxygen, nutrients, creates healing. That's part of even like the balancing is kind of the pressure, like having for the tire pressure balance on both sides. And we have cerebrospinal fluid. And the more that we start to understand about the purpose of CSF, it, it's like, the scrub brush for the neural tissues in our body. And so it, it basically washes all of the These things are regenerating all the time. Right. It washes all of the, you know, the plaques and all of the metabolic waste products that can accumulate in those tissues. And by the way, those have been Dead white blood cells. No, been implicated in some neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, dementia, that's all abnormal protein deposits in the brain. And anyways, that CSF should flow and it should those tissues healthy. So back to the kid, when you knock your neck out of alignment, it can almost like a cork in a bottle start to create a less than optimal flow. So anyways, going back to that kid, he was not doing well. Moral of the story is, I got him adjusted. We have our patients, we have a stabilization room where patients get to rest in these zero gravity chairs. It's super comfy, it's really relaxing, but it also serves the purpose of stabilizing the adjustment. So we tucked him in for 10 or 15 minute rest after the adjustment, and he fell asleep for what the mom said was like the first time in I think it was three or four days since he had his accident. And I was like, did we leave him in there for longer? She's like, can we? I'm like, we can leave him in there as long as you need to. And so after about, I was thinking about 45 minutes to an hour. We woke him up. I post checked him. Everything looked great. I said, I'm going to, I told him, I'm going to text you tomorrow morning and just check in with you and see how he's doing. And so I texted him on the next morning. And he texted She's like, he woke up and he's himself. I saved that text message because and I think we were talking before we started filming But I'm not a crier. Like that's not how I express my emotions But that one that one hit me right in the feels because what does that mean for the trajectory of this kid's life? Right, and so he got back to it. She's like we now have to Basically stop him from doing more than he should be doing right now and he went in he was there's an incredible clinic in Town called the Asha brain clinic. Okay, and they deal of course with a lot of folks that are healing from TBIs and concussion and so I got a phone call from one of the providers over there They're like we need to know what you did to this kid And I said, he went in for some testing after his injury, and then he went in for another round of testing. And he tested not only normal for a teenager in his grade level, but better when he had bombed all the testing prior. And so that just opened up a really cool door to, and this ties into your question before about chiropractic skepticism. We kind of went off the rails with that, but it's really cool to, uh, you have those doors open. And I also credit some of my more advanced training to be able to have these conversations with other healthcare providers, MDs, neurologists, endocrinologists, to sit toe to toe with them and explain, this is why physiologically these results are happening. This is how we accomplish that outcome. These are the steps that we took. It didn't really, it didn't ever involve me picking somebody's head up, twisting it and hoping for the best. It was a very gentle, calculated, precise correction. And the goal isn't to see our patients twice a week for the rest of their lives. The goal is to get them as stable and as few adjustments as possible, to teach them to recognize the signs when things aren't quite right. So they can come in and get tuned up. But yeah, this, that just went all over the place. No, I think that it's actually sets up my next question, which is like, how old is your business now? 10. It'll be 10 years this year. Okay. In July. So 10 years is not quite nine and a half now. Yeah. In business. I graduated 10 years ago, but I opened my business July of 15. So. Like, talk to me about the process of finding, cause if you're, if you're actually fixing people. Right. And you don't have a super visible location necessarily, like you're always going to find new people to keep your practice growing, I imagine. Or do you equip your customers to be really comfortable with referring you? Or how, what has been your mix of finding customers for your practice? Initially, I did a lot of networking. I remember. In the beginning. I saw you at a lot of places. Oh my gosh. I always think about, uh. I'd never see you around networking anymore. It's like Fight Club, right? Yeah. And like, they were going around to all these different meetings, right? I was like, it's like networking Fight Club. And you just, you have to show face. And it's not that you are necessarily recruiting your patients from these things, but you want to be the person they think about when their neighbor has a migraine or their friend gets into a motor vehicle accident or whatever it is. You want to be that top of mind. Go to place. And especially because I have this little niche within chiropractic, like if somebody has a head or neck issue, there literally isn't anybody better in Northern Colorado. And it's weird to toot my own horn like that, but it's, Just the truth. So now, like you said, things have evolved, right? After 10 years, you do establish more of a reputation. I get a ton of referrals from other healthcare providers, so that's wonderful. And then of course, with our patients, the results speak for themselves too, when they start feeling better. better and noticing these improvements in their day to day lives. They refer their spouse. And they tell the story at work. And then six months later, somebody at work is like, Hey, Marcy, who was that chiropractor you saw? And it's awesome. Of course for me and for my business, but it's awesome for them too, because now their coworker doesn't come in complaining every day or they come home to their spouse. And you know, I've, those are pieces of feedback that I've gotten to like kids have said to me, like, thank you for making my dad happier again. Like, he comes home and he's excited to play with me on the floor and, you know, do stuff. It's, it's really cool. My goal is to try to make you cry here tonight. It's not going to work. I might, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how this goes. I can see how pointed my questions can get. Uh, well, congratulations on approaching. When did you get out of school? Like I graduated from school December of 2014. So I just kind of right there now. About seven months. We landed. My husband, Wes, and I, we lived in Colorado for about eight or nine years before we moved to Atlanta. So I go to school and we pretty much always knew Colorado would be where we returned to. But Front Range was totally new. We lived on the Western Slope and we were ski bombing it. It was wonderful. Talk to me about More about the business of chiropractic, maybe. Yeah. Um, we talked a little bit about acquiring clients, you know, you didn't, you know, you could, as a new business, you can spend all your money on marketing and nobody, nobody even hears you. I want to mention one thing before we move on. Um, you know, you were saying like, of course, patients will have a natural life cycle, so to speak, but I will tell you most of our patients, when we get to the end and we do a progress exam, we actually put everything up side by side. This is where we started. This is where we've ended up. And that kind of is the, Evidence, right? That things have changed to support how they're feeling. Yeah. Also, like I would say the vast majority of our patients choose to come in usually about once a month to just have their spine checked. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Just a little tune up. Exactly. Just make sure. It's peace of mind. Which is a hundred bucks these days? Not even. Not even. Not even, Kurt. Okay. Alright. Um. Yeah, and I think it just makes sense. They've, uh, made the initial investment and they feel motivated to protect the gains they made and also they feel good and they want to stay that way. Well, I might even book a check in appointment before your new location is open. Okay. But I'll come in for my actual work in the new place. Well, you should come see my current office. It was a good home for us for ten years. I've been to your current office. Oh, okay. Yeah, two, three times. Perfect. Yeah, that's right. Mostly to drop off, like, uh Christmas gift or things like that. Um. I, you asked me a question. Oh, business y stuff. Like the business of chiropractic. We've talked about your small team kind of, but like you're the, basically the, the revenue all flows through your fingers. It does. You're doing the thing. Yep. And from the beginning I knew chiropractors, I mean that title, our education, the reason we have that degree. We have become. educated in being essentially doctors of the nervous system. And we access that through the spine, right? And so I, see a tremendous value in that. That's a great phrasing. I hadn't really heard it put quite like that. Yeah. Um, but when you say it that specifically, yeah. It's true. Right. Well, I mean, a nutritionist is kind of a doctor of the food you eat. Right. Whatever. Like there's all these specialties and saying it in that fashion. Totally. I think people understand maybe. Yeah. And it makes sense to me that way, but, um, so anyway, well, I don't know the business of chiropractic. I always knew like, you know, there's, I have a buddy, can I say a bad word? It's not even a bad word. Um, It's I grew up in New York city. That was like my first language. I really have to try to filter things out sometimes, but a really good friend and colleague of mine, Dr. Bill Lord and who practices in Connecticut. Um, he. loves to say there's an ask for every seat. Okay. And they're like there is there there's a time and a place for everything and everyone and there are a lot of chiropractic clinics that will throw out like they'll dangle the 17 new patient special or 39 all inclusive Well, the walk ins welcome kind of things on Right, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I would say sometimes if you're just looking for like a quick, you know, Hey, I need, I'm feeling pretty tight, or I need to increase range of motion, or I've got a little muscle spasm, or just looking for that temporary pain relief, okay. You know, you do that, but I just knew with the specificity of what I do, we're just going to charge a fair value based fee for our services. We're not going to offer any discounts, we're not going to do sales, and I'm not going to bargain with people. I think it's so interesting. I would never go into my dentist's office and be like, Oh, well, your fee is 129. Would you take 70 and I'll pay you cash? I'm like, no, our fee's our fee. And. So, I don't know if that's Are you covered by insurance? I, you know, we are not in network with any insurance providers with the exception of Medicare. Um, Okay. I, you know, if you're a practicing chiropractor and you're going to see patients over 65, you need to accept Medicare. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I do accept some Medicare patients. I have to be Yeah, aware of how many because the reimbursement rates are pretty invisible. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah But insurance is a whole different beast. So we are a fee for service facility If our patients do have coverage we can give them knock the documentation You know, they could submit directly we just take ourselves out of the middle. It just keeps it simple for everybody yeah, same thing probably with like even car crashes or different situations like that where insurance might be paying for that kind of stuff. Yeah. I, you know, I just dipped my toe in the water. I, you know, we had an existing patient that was in a motor vehicle accident. They asked if I would try to bill their med pay through their insurance. And I, I tried and I said, listen, I, I can't, we're two people, like some bigger offices, they have billing departments. They have somebody that's a billing specialist. I just can't do that. But I was just wanting to run, um, My business in a way that was fair, that was lean, and it just made sense. And those aren't the skills that you learned in school. And so I learned a lot from friends and people who were on the path before me that helped me avoid the major pitfalls, but a lot of it's trial by fire and just figuring it out. And also just, I try to just be a good person. Right. I think that goes a long way. Well, and you strike me as the kind of person that's probably, it's hard for you to spend more than you, you know, Earned kind of like philosophically, maybe that's not true. I, you know, it's interesting what starting a business does to your money mindset, like what I used to think was like a lot of money, right? I don't think it's a lot of money anymore. My rent is, you know, what I used to pay as my gross income. 100%. And so it's cool, like it's cool to expand your mindset in ways like that. And being a business owner, I think does that in a lot of ways if you let it, but, um, what's the investment for a chiropractic degree kind of thing for enough, like to get through school. So I graduated with about 185, 000. And I will tell you, because of interest rates on student loans, I probably owe like 50, 000 more now than when I graduated and I've never missed a payment. The system is rigged, man. Oh, that's so gross. It's okay. Yeah. And, you know, there's, uh, I just listened to a really interesting book called A Happy Pocketful of Money. And it was this whole like money mindset thing, but it was all rooted in quantum physics. It was super interesting and a really quick, easy read if anybody listening has any interest in any of that. But it really was about how to change your mindset about money and money. It's all just energy, right? If, if, if we hold it too tight, it's not going to flow to us either. And so I think that's something that being a business owner has taught me is that, you know. It's like some people will say you gotta spend it, you gotta spend it to make it. Yeah, yeah. I think there's some truth to that. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I've been saying lately, especially since like the European energy crisis stuff and whatever, that, uh, energy is more like money than money is like money. Because you can't just print energy. Right. Right. You got to dig it out of the ground or collect it from the sun or spin the little blades or it's going to be harvested from somewhere from somewhere it's going to take some effort, you know, which is why gold used to be money wasn't that easy to find. You had to freaking look hard for it. So that took energy. Uh, same kind of thing, like you're talking about here. Yeah, it's true. Um, so a little bit, a little bit probably on the business, uh, lessons. Have you, you mentioned three, uh, real strong associates so far in 10 years almost, or nine plus years. Exactly. So that's pretty impressive. It's, it's awesome. And I wish I could have kept all of them for different reasons. And I also acknowledge that like people pursue their own dreams. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then you also had a, uh, an associate doctor. For a very short period of time. Okay. And that was at this past year? Oh gosh. No, I think that was in 2023. Okay. Yeah. And was this, this wasn't an intern? It wasn't? No, I. Somebody that had been established. Had hired a fairly new grad. Okay. And I like to think of it as my very expensive learning experience. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was difficult. It, you know, I think it, As much as you try not to take those things personally, and you just realize people are going through their own shit. And that's a reflection of the choices that they make. Um, it was, it was, It was something that I thought about every single day after it happened. It just was very hurtful. And, you know, I think I tried, I set a place at the table, like a salary kind of thing, and then they had to eat, but they didn't really have an incentive necessarily build their base. Well, it was, yeah, a little more to it than that. I think in the beginning, we didn't really even get through the phase where they were trained enough to be able to see patients on their own way kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was pretty short lived. I, I learned a lot from that experience, uh, things I will do differently in the future when I go down that road again. And I'm to the point where I don't think about it every single day. Right. So that's a good thing. Well, it's a nice thing about a chiropractic. Businesses, you can be, if you can be efficient with your time, you can see a lot of patients in a day. For sure. I see an average day is probably about 40 patients. Wow. Okay. So that's quite efficient already. Peopling. Yeah, that's exactly. Dang. I didn't really realize the scope of that. And those are established patients, new patient interactions. Of course we sit down with them. Yeah. But otherwise we're just in the flow and we're seeing folks that are on the path. Yeah. We're just moving and grooving. Yeah. Um, so I feel like probably we could jump in the time machine. Um, does it make sense to go all the way back or should we go back to the origin story? I was born on a Monday. The question I really wanted to ask was, was the person that Impacted your life in chiropractic also a She was not. upper cranial person? Or how did you Upper cervical. Upper cervical? That's okay. How did you get that specialty direction going? So I was living in Crested Butte. Okay. And live in the Lifestyle that comes along with that. I was, you know, probably skied a hundred plus days in the winter and learn how to mountain bike when I lived out there. Like I said, I was a city kid. What did you do for money? I worked for the ski area for several years, right? So I did a year of AmeriCorps after. Okay. undergrad, because it turns out our degree didn't prove to be terribly useful. AmeriCorps was super, uh, that was pretty cool. That's why I got involved with Habitat for Humanity. So anyways, yeah, I worked, I volunteered with a, uh, AmeriCorps team on a Habitat house some years ago. Yeah. Very cool. So yeah, that was my, and that's how I ended up on the board of directors here. Okay. But anyways, um, moved across Dubuque through just crazy set of life circumstances and, you know, it, those were fun years, right? You know, the early. And I was just crashing all the things I was crashing, learning how to ski. I was crashing, learning how to ride a bike, how to date boys. Yeah, that too. That was, yeah. Maybe you had one already. I don't know. Uh, no, the Crested Beauty, at least back then, that was 20 years ago. There was the saying, the, the odds are good for women. The odds are good, but the goods are odd. And that was totally true. Although I did end up meeting my future husband at Crested Beauty, so that's a huge win. But anyways, because I was just beating myself up all the time. And like, literally every time I get back from a bike ride, I've had this raging headache. And I'm like, I can't keep going like this because at some point you realize like, okay, I've got to go on a bike ride. I'm going to get a headache. I'm going to pop a couple of ibuprofen, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. And I'm like, which is temporarily correcting the issue, but it's not getting to the cause of why that's happening. And so, you know, my hip was hurting, all kinds of stuff. And I was. Barely 30 years old, 31 years old, maybe, and I was like, well, I should probably do something about this and a friend of mine in town was like, go see Dr. Mimi. She's a great chiropractor in town. And so I did. And of course, my body started to feel better. And she was a, you know, very, you know, Traditional adjuster, like adjusted the full spine. And because we were in a very active town, she would adjust your wrists and your legs and all the things that feel great when you walked out of there. And you, I felt really well loved when I walked out of there too. And it was very different than any other like doctor experience, right? It was personal and it was friendly, right? More like a massage. Yeah. And there was a different connection there. And I also think there was something really appealing to me at that time, even before I knew any of this, that, I was working with my body. I wasn't taking anything from the outside and putting it in there. I was just working with the good things that I already had. Right. And so of course my body started feeling better. But at that time, like I was dealing with some weird like thyroid imbalance and I redid my blood work and everything normalized. And I was like, That's interesting. And so the next time I went in to see Dr. Meavy, I said, Hey, this is happening. She's like, Jade, haven't I taught you anything? And it's, you know, a lot of the stuff that you and I were talking about before that really every organ and tissue in your body is connected to the one under your hat. Right. And if those lines of communication aren't open, there's an obstruction there. Yeah. Things are not going to work the way they should. So you're not just feeling like looser. You're feeling just like. Better. More connected. Yeah, right. It's, things are firing all cylinders. And so it just got me thinking and I was, I was a 9 1 1 dispatcher for the last four years. I lived over in Gunnison County. Okay. That was the craziest job I ever thought I'd have. Right. Take some interesting phone calls in that role, I imagine. Totally. But at that time she started planning this. She's like, you know, you'd be a great chiropractor and I'm like, Okay, thanks. But then Those seeds took root somehow. And so the school that I ended up going to in Atlanta, um, they offer what's called a life leadership weekend. So prospective students can, they'll just come check it out. Almost host these weekends where they, you know, exactly like you can connect with doctors in the areas, current students tour the campus and just start to understand like, Hey, this, this is what it would be like. And so I said, well, I'm going to go in Westside. I don't even think we had been dating that long, maybe about a year and maybe a year and a half. I don't remember exactly, but. I was like, I'm going to go out there and do this weekend and I'll know it's either a yes or a no, but I'm done. Yeah, and I got there and I'll probably tell you probably within the first couple hours. I was like, I was like, I'm going to have to, yeah, from literal paradise in Crested View with a guy that I just kind of started dating and I was super into, and we, you know, we were living together and I was like, how, how is this even going to happen? So that's how it started. But. She was not an upper cervical specialist, but I do remember distinctly having a conversation with her before I left for school. And she's like, you're going to go to school. And I had to do six months of undergrad prerequisites because I didn't have a science based undergrad degree. And so she's like, we'll take the first six months and your course load is going to be lighter. And there's a bunch of different technique clubs on campus where you can, you know, just see like, This is only one way to do it. There's a lot of ways to do this. And she's like, there's chiropractors who adjust by hand, there's chiropractors that use an instrument, there's chiropractors that use a certain, uh, types of equipment. And she's like, there's even chiropractors that really just focus on the top bone in the neck. I don't, I remember in that moment looking at her, I'm like, Well, that's crazy. Why would they just do that? And here we are. Yeah. Because, to me, it just made sense. By doing this one thing, it can influence every other thing. And it's true. And, in fact, some of the original techniques that were upper cervical focused, it was called HIO, and it stood for hole in one. And, you know, that has the sort of the double meaning, like, you know, it's like you're just getting the whole thing because it is a chain that works from the top down. And then the other meeting, it's like, it's the whole W H O L E in one. I can't believe I haven't like. Actually talk to you about my straight neck situation properly. It's silly. That's okay. And silly, you know, sometimes I get people that come in and they have lower back pain or sciatic nerve pain and I'm like, I'm gonna look at that. But we're gonna search upstream to make sure that some of the roots aren't upper right in the upper neck. And I can't even tell you if I had a nickel for every time I adjusted somebody's neck and they're like, oh, my low back feels better. It's like, of course it does. Well, and that's what I'm, I'm wondering to myself, there probably wasn't,'cause I've met with maybe three chiropractors over the years, um, but none of them. Had any kind of specialty in that space or whatever, you know, it wasn't really a thing. It's been a thing for a long time. And I think probably a lot of docs don't want to do it because, you know, we get some upper cervical coursework in school, but I don't think it's really enough to feel confident going into practice, just saying, Hey, this is what I focus on. So it took a lot of extra time outside of school and conferences, seminars, different technique organizations, not making money really. Right. Well, even when you're a student, right. And so, and then you have to have a certain kind of mind to want to do what I do. There's a lot of math, there's a lot of physics, and there's a lot of calculation that goes in. What patients see is the easy part. The adjustment. when it comes time, when that person's on my table and everything's lined up, that adjustment is easy as pie. In fact, sometimes I tell people, especially people who are a little bit nervous or skeptical, I'm like, this is probably going to be the most underwhelming thing you've experienced all day because the adjustment itself is very gentle because I'm not trying to move things miles. I'm trying to move things literally millimeters, but in the exact right direction. And all of the work that goes in. To that moment, leading up to the delivery of that adjustment, that's the hard work. And you still actually use kind of like math and Oh yeah. It's more based on imaging and Well, it's all image based, but then there's a lot of, well, I'm not like literally doing math on paper, but what I learned, like you had, you know, you held little clear things up to x rays on a light box and Sure, and you're like, this is You know, it's all digital. This is what a millimeter looks like on a piece of film. Yeah, whatever. Yep. Interesting. Um, let's, uh, that kind of is the origin, so let's zoom back to, are you good at potty break or anything like that? I'm good, thanks for asking. Your water's still rockin Yeah, I forgot about it. Uh, let's rock into kindergarten. You were an East Coast girl, you mentioned, before you, AmeriCorps took you to kindergarten. Yeah, I was born and raised in New York City. Okay, really? Yeah, which part? Manhattan. Okay. Lower East Side, 27th and 2nd. Okay, and what, what was the, the family situation? Siblings, parents, what were they doing? So, my folks, they both worked for their whole career. I have a younger brother. I look like a parent. Yes, you do. And I, that's a big compliment. Would he wear this sweater? He would wear that sweater. He'd definitely rock that sweater, Kurt. Um. My parents both worked for the New York City Board of Education in special ed. My mom taught some of the most, um, you know, in some of the most profoundly impacted autistic classrooms. Um, so that was really awesome to see growing up. And my dad ended up still working for the city, but in more of an evaluator role. So he made sure kids were placed in the proper classrooms that, They would be able to receive the services that they needed, but all of the special education landscape, that's a really interesting, uh, on the autism side, like I think of autism kind of as something that's really, well, it has blossomed so much more the last 20, 25 years, for sure. Right. But a place like New York city. Yeah. Would kind of be a canary in the coal mine. They're like, Hey, we've got enough of these kids that have this characteristic because there's just so many people, like in North Dakota, there's like four kids with autism in first grade. Right. I mean, like you probably grew up in a town as big as my apartment building. Like if that a hundred, a hundred people are, I don't think my town's population ever was over a hundred. Oh yeah. It's smaller than my apartment building. And so, yeah, my brother, my brother is a two and a half years younger than me. Um, he's. Did your parents come from there too? Okay. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. New Yorkers get a bad rap, man. I think we're pretty friendly. Well, they don't come here very much, honestly. Like, I've only met, I've met probably Ten upstate New York people for every one city person. Yeah, I that actually moves to Colorado I could tell right away when I have a patient in my conference room like when I meet somebody for the first time I'm like you're from where I from like nine times out of ten. I'm right Yeah, no Have you noticed the same like when you meet other New York people? Most of them are upstate compared to the city. I would say so. Yeah. I mean, New Yorkers think that's the center of the universe. Most of them don't leave. Like, right. It's kind of like North Dakota, except for they think it's that they're miserable people that deserve the punishment they're receiving from God in the form of weather and wind. Oh, Very different. They don't really think about it. Yeah. Kind of. That's kind of the culture. Okay. My ancestors must have been stupid. If they moved here, how the hell do I get out of here? I'd have babies here. But they're tough. Yes. Yes. And relatively innovative and smart. But yeah. Yeah. And they make fun of city people anyway. I know. Well, it's interesting. I married a guy from Mobile, Alabama, and I was so worried to have our parents meet for the first time. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. I was like, Oh my gosh, my parents are like the quintessential, like Jews from Brooklyn, right? They're loud and they're, but my parents are like, they're just the friendliest people. Well, but they're like, not to, no offense intended, but I don't think about. Special education leaders when I think Jews in Brooklyn, I think either Delhi or Banker or Well, my maiden name is Goldsmith. And so my, you know, my family, a lot of them were jewelers, like out of the line. So, yeah. So your, your family were escapees from that line of, uh, Yes. So, but they were, were, were your, were they middle class in that circumstance? Very much so. Like we grew up in rent controlled housing and, Yeah. Um, you know, I think Of course, they were stable jobs, though. Yes, very much. You know, exactly. So you didn't have much fear of no future. We never wanted for anything like that. Yeah, we had a really, I would say idyllic childhood and a lot of regards. Yeah, as far as having to live in New York City means. No, I'm playing, but you don't know that there's a different world out there. Like, that's where you grow up. And that's kind of free range. Like you could, when you were eight years old, You could kind of be out in the city or it was, it was kind of sketch. Oh, for sure. New York in like the eighties, there was a lot of homelessness, a lot of drug use. Like the neighborhood I grew up with was, it was pretty marginal at that time. And so I can't remember how. I must have maybe been in 5th or 6th grade when my parents would, there was a little coffee shop in the ground level of the apartment complex that I grew up in and I just remember my best friend, Athena, like, you know, they would probably hand us a 10 bill and like, go home for lunch. Right. You know, we'd ride the elevator down, we'd walk outside the lobby into the building next door to the coffee shop and like, you know, of course the days before like cell phones or anything like that. Sure. Sure. But I'm just curious of the culture what it really looks like to grow up, you know, be a young person. Yeah I thought it was really cool I mean the places that we went on class trips or places that like people plan their vacations around And I was just like our backyard, right? But then the other side of that it's like I didn't learn how to drive until I was 22 years old It was oh, wow, terrifying. Okay Um, you know, people played sports where they had fields, like stuff like that. It's just really different. Yeah. So talk to me about like, what were like the, cause I always think about sports, you know, being the, whether it's track or soccer teams or different things like that, but what do, what do city kids? So I played a lot of basketball. Get into it. Okay, sure. And that's, that was my love when I was in high school and even getting into college. All right. And I, we played softball too, but it was interesting. We like, we had to. Shlep, all of our equipment on the subway, like, you know, somebody would carry a bag of bats and the balls and all the, you know, catcher's gear and all that stuff. And we would ride the subway to like Central Park or a place that had a park, a public park that had fields. And that's where we would play our games. I got a bag full of balls. Well, I mean, that's all again. It's like, that's what we did. And it was pretty cool. You ride the subway home and you're like, no, he's going to fuck with me. I got a bag of baseball bats right now. It was good. Yeah. Well, plus you're part of a team, probably all right. Well, on the way, on the way there, but then we all live different places. So we would all go our separate ways on the way home. Yeah. We would divvy up the gear and you'd bring it back to school the next day. And how was your, um, academic pursuits? Were you a smarty pants early? I was, I, you know, I just, I'm wired to thrive in that kind of environment. I loved school. I was always like a great test taker. And yeah, it's not that I always loved learning. Cause I think as I've gotten older, like when you figure out what you actually love and what you're passionate about, I'll learn this, learning that's easier. But I mean, I, I always was a really good student and you know, just brain that takes tests really well. Well, and, and cultural pressure too, right? Like the, between the Japanese and the. Jewish, uh, there's a couple of cultures that just have a real Yeah, I mean, maybe stereotypically, stereotypically, but in the actual numbers, too But in my family, I guess, like, there was never that pressure It never felt like outsider's pressure No No But just kind of cultural expectation for sure. But I also felt like it gave me the, you know, the balance of like, Hey, I'm going to perform well in school and I'm not going to screw this up. So I'm also going to stay out till like three in the morning. Like cultural makeup of like the neighbors and the schools and stuff. Was it like, there's like everything like blacks and Puerto Ricans and whites. Everything. And I think I like, I'm still actually really good friends with a lot of people that I went to elementary school with and we have all commented like if everybody's. kindergarten class photo looked as diverse as ours. I think the world would be a better place because you don't learn intolerance for, Anybody, when you grow up in a place like that, you just, you're just kids and you like who you like. It doesn't matter what flesh suit they're wearing. Well, I think New York city has probably been known for that for a long time in general. I would imagine so. Right. It's been kind of a melting. Pot. I call a Fort Collins, a, uh, a white cheese fondue. Cause there's people from all over the country. They're just all white people from all over the country. I know, you know, that's been a really difficult thing about living in Colorado. Like I do miss the diversity of, and there's honestly, like I've had the privilege of traveling a lot of places. There's no place like New York city. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, I spent about. 30 hours in New York City on one trip, and that's all so far. So that's probably why I asked. You got to go and you got to hire my dad, Phil, to be your tour guide. So did you, as you're getting ready to be. Uh, going off. Did you go to college directly first? I did. So I graduated from high school. I went straight to undergrad because that's, I guess, what you did. And where? What? I went to school in Binghamton, New York. So about four hours away from the city, like sort of Western New York, Finger Lakes ish. It's about an hour away from Syracuse, Ithaca. Which, the Finger Lakes are really cool looking on a geographic map. Super pretty. Yes. It's, I think that's pretty cool. One of the most beautiful parts of the country. I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. And the Adirondacks, super pretty. So I, I, you know, you're what, 18 and you go to undergrad and you're like, Oh, I like that. art. I like making pictures. So that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. But undergrad was awesome. Like I, again, just like, do you like be a graphic designer? Yes. So that was like my focus with my art degree was photography and graphic design. So some of the graphic design skills that I learned and gosh, when I learned, I mean, I was looking at your hat, is your hat yours? That was a joint effort. Okay. You gave some feedback to somebody that's more skilled, fresher. Well, you know, when I learned we were literally Making things with like t squares and exacto knives. I'm not kidding. That makes me sound really old We were also developing actual film with chemicals and printing them on paper Right, and that's just how the world was when I was an undergrad. Oh You're not nearly as old as me, but I'm very close. Are you really? I'm 50. I turned 50 this summer. I am 46 Okay. Yeah. So yeah, so you experienced a world without Cell phones, at least a little bit, you know, as you were a teenager. Rotary phones, all the things. Totally. Yeah. Interesting. So. Yeah. I think the world was. I put you younger in my mind's eye. I've got you like 42 or something like that. So. I'll take it. Yeah. So yeah, you're right though. None of those skills really applied 10 years later. And so, yeah, technology, I mean, it's almost like that software is planned to become obsolete in a short period of time. Right. And so, you know, when it comes to designing stuff like Canva and all that stuff nowadays, like that makes it really easy. And I love doing all that stuff. And I do a lot of work for, yeah, our graphics for my newsletter and all that stuff. I enjoy doing that stuff and I'm very particular about how things look and, um, but some stuff I just don't have the time. Well, sure. And well, it didn't sound like it was really a passion. Yeah, you know, I never really did it professionally. And so it's something that I don't, I don't think I probably would've been good at it, but that's just not where life took me. So you, so you signed right up for AmeriCorps after? So after I graduated from undergrad, I. Had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. And I had toyed around with joining the peace corps, but there were a lot of requirements as far as like, I was curious about that myself, but it was, I was from North Dakota and nobody did stuff like that. Yeah. It was a two year commitment. And I was like, okay, I can't remember exactly all the reasons. I think, you know, I don't know exactly why I chose not to pursue that, but then somebody mentioned, oh, well, they have a version of the Peace Corps that's just the United States and it's AmeriCorps. And I was like, oh, that sounds really cool. And so I applied. Actually, I hope this doesn't get too weird, but like, because I've been reading all these books that have this quantum physics lead to them. Um, I think that's the first time I actually like, manifested something in a way like, that I now understand that. It has everything to do with how your thoughts actually have a huge part in creating your reality. But I applied for this AmeriCorps position with Habitat for Humanity and you had to choose your top three geographical locations. And so my first choice was like, I grew up on the East coast. I was like, I want to experience the West coast. I want to go to Portland, Oregon. And so I, That was my number one choice. And I think my second one was like Austin, Texas, Minneapolis, it was, you know, big urban areas. And I got assigned to Portland. I was like, sweet, got my first choice. And then we all like all of the AmeriCorps placements from All across the country, we met in actually America's Georgia, where the headquarters is, and we had our big orientation. Kind of a bootcamp y thing. And I can't even tell you, I talked to everybody like, Portland was my first choice, Portland was my first choice, and I had no idea it was that competitive. And I was like, I manifested that shit. It was pretty cool. Okay. And so I, yeah. Do they, do they choose you based on like, what they think of your qualifications? Why do the other people get aced out? I don't know. Like, you know, I had an interview, like a phone interview, and then, you know. Just a ranking system or something. Maybe so. Or pulled your name out of a hat. It was a team and so I think they probably interviewed to make sure that they were trying to put together a team that they thought would get along and have good synergy and all that stuff. Different personality types and all that stuff. So I don't know. But it was really cool. They do the same thing with the exchange students. Uh, like Lenny from, from Finland that's with us now. He's like, you know, Colorado was my second choice, you know, but, um. So however I got it, it was really cool. So I got there and. And Portland's cool, especially in those days. Those days it was really cool. Um, you know, we lived in Northeast Portland and it just had a lot of flavor and again, a lot of cultural diversity, which made me feel like right at home coming from New York. Some tall buildings even, not that many, but a couple. And so I remember getting home from that orientation. in Georgia and we went to the office and they threw me the keys to the truck and they were like, back the truck up to the garage and hook up the trailer. We'll tell you which construction site we're going to go to. And I just looked at them. I was like, I can't. I can't do that. They're like, Oh, you've never towed a trailer before. We'll show you how to hook it up and it'll be fine. I'm like, no, I don't have a driver's license. They were like, what? And so that was like my first like AmeriCorps job was to learn how to drive. And they turned me loose in this, I think it was like a 1980s GMC flatbed truck. And they took me out to the Portland Speedway with this huge open parking lot. Big clunker of a stick shift. They're like, figure it out. And they're like, if you could drive this, you could drive anything. And it was true. And I, I got pretty comfortable driving around in that big clunker of a truck. And my fellow AmeriCorps member, Jim Taddeo, he drove this old minivan and he's like, you could use, he's like, you don't want to, drive a stick shift for your road test. It's like, it's just one less thing to think about. You could drive my minivan. I was like, thanks man. It was great. But he's like, just don't even come close to touching the handle of the passenger seat because the seat will just flop back flat and that's where the instructor sits. And I was like, Oh my God, I was so nervous the whole time that the instructor was just going to end up like flopping back, but it worked out. I was just telling Lenny a story last night. Uh, that's very. Um, I was bragging to the people that we were taking driver's ed with, so we got, we got a driver's license at 14 in North Dakota. That's amazing. Um, and. And terrifying. Also. And I, and I was, it was just like barely before I was going to turn 14, but I was still able to take the class. Yeah. And we were talking about who was the best driver. Um, in the class and I was like, well, clearly it's me and my, my school friends were like, well, you're always like sliding around corners and stuff like that. I was like, well, yeah, that's why I'm the best driver. And I had already logged probably five to 10, 000 miles of driving before I went to driver's ed and got my driver's license at 14. Uh, so just such a different and driving trucks full of grain, combines and tractors and whatever else. Backing up trailers. Anyway, yeah, totally different perspective there we could actually take a break anyway. You wanna? You wanna octu? Yeah. Okay, I think we should. Let's do that. All right. Um, and so, we're back. And when we broke, you were, uh, giving a driving test, uh, with a minivan. And it was successful. It was, yeah. You got your driver's license at the fine old age of 22, yeah. Um, and, uh, during the break we were talking that like, in your, like, community, in the place that you live, like, 90 percent adults Didn't really drive. Oh no, like my parents didn't own a car growing up. Really? I would venture to say that most of my classmates or their families probably didn't own cars either. I can't imagine how expensive it must have been. Did you drive subways then a lot? Yeah, we walked a lot of places. Um, you know, when it was too far to walk, we would either take the subway, City bus. Yeah, we take a cab. So like what do you want on exploring as a family and what some of these places are? Oh classes, would you take subways? Sometimes I mean there were school buses that would take us on class trips Like I never wrote a school bus to school, right? Right, we would walk we walked to elementary and junior high and when I got to high school I would either ride the bus or the subway or I thought was real cool. I would rollerblade to school Yeah, I think that's so illustrative of The difference like yeah, um, one of the things I've said a lot is like the United States needs to hold the United States a little more loosely. You know, there's like these, this kind of movement of, you know, banning the electoral college, for example. Well, then New York and California would basically tell, you know, everybody in North Dakota, how to live. They have no idea like what it is to have their kids driving their farm tractor at 13 years old. Cause that's what you need to do. Right. It's just a different world and you know, different needs. And you know, my world, there's a saying like structure determines function, right? Like the structure of your spine is going to determine the function of your body. Like it's the same thing. Like your environment determines what you need to have the skills to be able to Impulse for a perhaps more collectively. Supportive society when you have homeless people in the streets and things like that like it's like no We should take care of this because that's yeah, our kids safety right totally North Dakota. Like they're like Here, ride your bike to your friend's house. Right, and don't get your arm stuck in this piece of farm equipment. Right, don't fall off the bin when you go up and check and see if the grain is dry. And like we were learning how to jaywalk in traffic, right? When you're jumping from hay bale pile to hay bale pile, you know, make sure if you do fall you try not to land on your head. Yeah. I mean, maybe similar skill sets just applied in an urban versus a rural setting. One is more Frogger, the other one is more Tarzan. So you get your driver's license and now you can finally go off and be part of this team in Portland? Or were you already in Portland? Oh no, I, other people would, Drive me to the construction site. But it was cool. It was cool to be able to do that I mean just even the little things like I remember the first time I drove myself to the grocery store I was like I could buy my groceries by myself. This is crazy. Did they teach you like how to swing a hammer? How to, you just saw all those things too, right? Oh for sure. So that was really what we were there to do We were there to basically become assistant site supervisors. And so we learned all those skills We were sent roof trusses. We were hanging drywall. We were, you know, Frame it in Windows. Like, we learned it all. It was a really cool thing to do. And then it also planted the seeds for me to become involved with Habitat here. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Um, and so, so you stayed with AmeriCorps for a while, right? A year. It's a year of service. Okay. Yep. And then, what was the circumstance that landed you? So I, gosh, when I graduated from undergrad, I was, I was dating a guy. We tried to do the distance thing. We probably shouldn't have stuck with it, but we did. So I moved back. He, we were living in upstate New York, Saratoga Springs at this time. And so I went back. We tried to, you know. pick up where we left off or whatever. And, you know, it was definitely a bad idea for the beginning, but actually for a couple of years, we just toughed it out and, um, it was pretty, I mean, that was an interesting phase of my life. Like I landed there, it was winter time. We're getting into the winter time, so I got a job at a little coffee shop, and That's Uncommon Grounds. I've worked at Uncommon Grounds. Have we talked about that before? I don't know. I have a, uh, one of my, when I started dating my wife, I lived with two gals I worked with at the bank, and one of them had worked at Uncommon Grounds. Wow. I've been there. Small world. When we were in upstate New York at one time. I've put cream cheese on so many bagels in that place. Yeah, she was always a big fan of that, uh, coffee shop. Yeah, it was a good coffee shop. Yeah, yeah. And so that's, I mean, I learned to love good coffee when I worked there and then I would also work the one coffee shop in New York that I've been to in Saratoga Springs. Yeah. That was a really weird, all of New York state. I've never been to another coffee shop. And it's the one that I worked in. Um, that was a weird town. There was a huge disparity between like the haves and the have nots of that town. Like a veil kind of situation where there's all these rich people. Yeah. Like Skidmore college and lots of very wealthy college students and horses. Racing and then the people that make them coffee. Yeah, and the people that like grew their vegetables, which was mean So I worked on a small organic farm. Okay in those years two in the summer even more skills You're pretty well rounded for a city girl. Totally super drive a bus. You couldn't hammer nails I could grow Yeah, and so it actually was through the farm and You know, setting up at our farmer's market that I met somebody who would spend his summer's farming in upstate New York, and he would spend his winters working for the Ascaria and Crested Butte. And so when my relationship finally came to an end, you know, Was this a love interest? No, no, no. Just a friend. Yep. Happened to be that lifestyle. And you're like, well, he said, Hey, I can get you a job at the Ascaria and Crested Butte. No problem. He said, just come out to Colorado for the winter. I was like, awesome, Doug. That sounds great. And so I was pretty slow in the winter. Anyway, I'm sick of coffee. I needed to get out of that town. I was at that point, I had moved out and I was literally in my friend's walk in closet. It had a window though, so that was good, but I had like a blow up, like twin mattress in a walk in closet. I was like, I need a venue change. And so when Doug mentioned that, I was like, Oh, yeah. Awesome. I would love to spend the winter in Colorado. And you know, I had a job waiting for me when I got there and I would use to drive this. It was awesome. I had a 1995 Volkswagen Golf. That car was awesome. Like little stick ship, zippy little car. Yeah, I'd love that car. And so the plan was we were going to just pack my car up and we were going to road trip it out together and. We'd land in Crested Butte and about a week before we were supposed to leave he calls me. He's like Jane Um, I'm not going to Colorado this this winter. I was like what I Was like we're supposed to leave in a week What the hell and he's like I he I guess say I'm probably still the case but getting a he really wanted a job on Ski Patrol. Okay, and those positions are probably super competitive in Crested Butte and He was offered a position at a resort in Vermont. So he's like I'm staying on the East Coast this winter. Oh dang He's like, well, don't in the door for ski patrol. Well, he's like, don't worry. You still have a job waiting for you. Like you're going to love it. Godspeed. And I was like, okay. So I packed all my shit into my Volkswagen Golf and I drove cross country by myself. I stopped in Albuquerque to see some friends who actually also worked at Uncommon Grounds, who had moved. And I dish dove in the restaurant that they work out to just make a little bit extra money to make it all the way to Crested Butte. I landed there. And. I think I got there and then the very next day I started work, they put me on the lift up to like, you know, this is like sea level and Were you ski? I snowboarded a little bit, you know, took in Vermont or upstate snowboarding New York for PE in upstate New York. Okay. I wasn't terribly good at it, but I was like, you know, 23 years old. But you'd ridden at a lift before at least. Oh yeah. A little bit. Stuff that stuff stuff. And, but not at elevation. Oh my gosh. They put me on a lift first thing with a shovel. They're like, we're building the ramp to get off the lift. And I thought I was going to die like 11, 000 feet. I was like, what am I doing here? But I stayed at a hostel the first couple of nights I was in town. And then I met just a bunch of really cool people. We got a condo together up on the mountain and, you know, we lived pretty classic ski bum life for several years. It was awesome. And, you know, I ended up working at Camp 4 Coffee in Crested Butte for many years too. It was a really good experience. Simple life, when I look back on it. And how did the 9 1 1 dispatch, you were like, Well, I guess I should get a big girl job or something? Well, I mean, that was part of it. Like, year round jobs in the Gunnison Valley. And again, I'm speaking like the Gunnison Valley of 15, 20 years ago. It was very different. Um, They were hard to come by, like your own jobs with benefits. Like there was used to be a huge off season, like month season. We'd have month season in the spring, and then we'd have month season again when the, you know, the fall and you were, a lot of people were out of work for a few months out of the year. Yeah, I think that's really interesting, even for the, the, the. The local restaurants and stores. They would close and that's when those restaurant owners would take a breather, take their vacation and tourism was down. So there wasn't a whole lot of people under the locals to feed. And so town would shut down. And I mean, those were magical times. It would probably like, if you looked at like monthly receipts and wages paid and stuff, it's probably got some really crazy seasonality. Most definitely. Now I don't think anything shuts down. There's no off season anymore. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, at that time, you had to really plan for that because you probably had no income or very much reduced income. Right, you got two shifts a week instead of six at the restaurant, whatever. Totally. Exactly. And so, I don't know. I mean, it wasn't that I necessarily needed a change, but it was just a, it was just a, there was a curiosity to that type of work. And I know I've always thought no matter what we do, we're in service to people, whether I'm serving somebody a coffee, or I am answering a phone when somebody's having an emergency or exactly like whatever we do, we are serving somebody. Right. And I was like, well, this is a different, really unique way to serve the community. And honestly, growing up in New York city, I did not at that time have very positive views of law enforcement. And so I, you know, I, you know, Challenged my own way of thinking and actually made some really great friendships with people and learned a lot You know, you learn about a lot. You learn a lot about humanity. You learn a lot about yourself. You have to handle other people's shit So it was a weird job. Do you like if you could open a chiropractic office in Crested Butte? Today and still have the same Lifestyle, discretionary income, would you want to, or do you, are you back in love with Northern Colorado now that you're here? Oh man, that's a hard question. I mean, I, I miss the mountains. I miss living in a mountain town, but I don't think I could thrive and do what I do, like the specific type of chiropractor that I do in a town that's small, in a community that's small. And it's also like, it's still a very much tourist driven economy there. And I'm sure the chiropractors. Maybe there's more than one. I'm not sure. I've been back in a while But I'm sure they get a lot of walk in traffic from skiers who just need a one off adjustment And there's for sure a place for that in town, but that's just that that's not what lights me up that you do Yeah, fair enough. Okay But yeah, I would happily live there again. Would you let's talk about like Like a possible next chapter like do you want to do this for two years? 20 more years and then retire now that you've got kind of your business kind of rocking or do you have curiosities? Would you I can't I honestly this is weird to say I can't see myself doing anything different at this point There's nothing six already. So actually 15 more years you can retire but I love what I do and I feel like I have the skill to be able to do it. And I have the ability to communicate its importance to people. And it feels really good to offer to offer a solution for people that they're not finding any place else. And so I think I don't ever see myself retiring necessarily in a traditional sense. It's like, you know, maybe one day I would hope to bring on an intern who would become an associate who could then, you know, Basically purchase my practice and take it over and keep that legacy going. Maybe they'll even let you work two days a week there. Exactly. And just come in and, and just do the part that I love, which is actual caring for people part. I don't have to worry about like, writing the checks or, you know, dusting the light fixtures or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. I dig it. Yeah. Um, what would you say to a young, uh, medical professional? person are the most, whether it be nutrition or chiropractic or whatever, acupuncture, some healthcare realm, like what are the most important? Cause a lot of them are serve people first and they don't really think about the business elements. What, I guess, what would be your advice to somebody in that mindset of, uh, you know, making a sustainable machine out of the, if you will. I think there's probably a huge benefit in, associating with somebody first. You know, I didn't do that right out of school. Like I think there was, I had a unique set of circumstances. I was a bit older and I knew specifically the type of practice I wanted to have. And we knew we were moving to Fort Collins. There was nobody else here doing what I needed to do. So it was on me to basically purchase all the equipment and do all that anyways. So I'm like, well, if I'm doing this, I'm, I'm just going for it. But I think there could have been a lot for me to learn being in. Practice with somebody else being under somebody else's roof. If you were 23, work for somebody for three or five years. I think there's immense value in that, or at least having mentors that you hold close that can guide you through startup, because I'm going to say, like, I, you probably, in most schools that train you to be a massage therapist, nutritionist, acupuncturist, chiropractor, you might have a business class or two, but you do not get a business education. It's not what school's designed for. And that's a whole other conversation. But you don't graduate with those skills. And you don't even graduate with the skills you need to, like, understand how to go to a networking function and connect with people. And if that doesn't come naturally to you, it's, it's a really awkward process. awkward thing. Right. And so for somebody young, that's looking to do that, like either gain experience and, you know, make those mistakes when you have somebody by your side who could help you through them, or at least have those mentors close that can guide you through it. Like, I mean, I think that's what Loco Think Tank is for me now and has been for five years is those peers that can, you through it. Provide input and It's been neat to see so many of you grow so nicely over the last seven years. it's my crew. Yeah, yeah. Uh, one of the things that you didn't say, but I was thinking at the time is for a young person to really go to a practice that you admire. Yeah. You know, there's, there's always going to be practices out there and doctors out there. You kind of got to dig a little bit, figure out for sure who you want to be a part of their team. And it's been cool. I've had through the many years, students reach out to me and ask if they can come shadow like chiropractic students. And it's always an honor when somebody reaches out to ask that. And You know, I guess to some extent, like, that there's got to be this almost, like, Wizard of Oz thing, too. It's like, you know, there's no secrets behind my curtain. There's no magic or, you know, mystery to it. It's just grinding it out every day. And, not grind it in a negative way, but it's, you know, it's not all glamorous work. It's not all happy results. You're meeting 40 people in a day. That's a lot of interactions. And it's also a lot of people who maybe aren't Because they're not feeling their best or in a grouchy mood because they're in pain and you know, It's not always like rainbows and butterflies and a lot of times it is and the days go by but then there's heaviness to it and also, you know, we've talked about this a little bit about being in business is the opportunity you hold a mirror up and it's a lot of reflection of like who you are and At the end of the day, it's you know You know, nine good things can happen, but one bad thing happens, and how do I come home enough to just focus on that one negative thing? How do I celebrate the wins, too? Well, I suspect that it, for your crew at your local Think Tank chapter, that's part of it. Like, they help you look back at the accomplishments instead of just that one little piece. Yeah, and we all need that. Otherwise, like, I mean, I think that's a recipe for burnout. If we don't have that, you know, bird's eye view or that perspective. You mentioned the, the attempt to hire an associate doctor there and it was an expensive lesson or whatever. Yeah. 20 grand. You know, I maybe not quite that much intentionally didn't do the math because I, I just didn't wanna know. Right. But I'll just say lawyers aren't cheap. Right. Um, well, and, and I, and I suspect that the, having people that help you get to a mindset of, you know, we're just gonna move past it. Yes. Don't even really need to know the math. I know. And I mean, even now, about a year and a half later, I don't know that I'll be at a place of gratitude for the experience. Right. I think that's gonna require a little bit more self-reflection, but I. I am grateful for, I mean, even the people that I met along the way and the opportunity to like, understand the system, so to speak, and what happens when an employee decides to file a frivolous complaint. Like, what does that look like? And that is such a thing anymore. Yeah. Like I never heard about it when I was in banking of employees that were just kind of like, you know If they got terminated and they weren't happy about it, they just like try to make it somebody else's problem Yeah, and that happened and on my good days. I just realized that only somebody who's in a pretty dark place makes decisions like that. And you know, in those moments I can have compassion for the situation, but on my less good moments, I'm like, who does that? Who does that? But it's a suffering person who does that. Yeah. Well, hurt people, hurt people. And it, you know, honestly, the, the system is set up so that somebody who just is disgruntled or had a bad experience or just has a bone to pick, they could literally just fill out a form online and just click submit and it goes to the state. And then the onus is on the business owner to fight that. And, you know, I interviewed a couple lawyers when this all happened. The first one was like, well, you know, you'll probably spend less time, less energy, less money, not fighting this, just settle. And I was like, Oh, it just felt dirty to me because what this person was doing was calling my character into question with the statement that they provided. And I was like, I know in my heart and in all the documentation that I have that none of this is true. Right. And. You know, I interviewed another lawyer who is the one I ended up working with and he's like, and I'll tell you right out of the gate, this is a very employee friendly system, but you know, looking at all the documentation you have, like, there's no question. And so he said, if you want to go through this process, I can't guarantee you an outcome, but it will probably be favorable for you. Um, And it's going to probably take months. And it did from start to finish the whole process going through like interviews with investigators from the state took about seven months. And at the end of the day, they, on everything that I was, you know, accused of doing basically none of it held any water. And you know, it, you know, It felt really good. Like actually was in our cohorts meeting. I was with, uh, we were just getting to Avery and I was with Moses. We were waiting in line and I, my cell phone rings and it was my lawyer. I was like, Oh my gosh, this has to be the decision because we've been waiting, waiting, waiting. And in that moment, I just wanted to run outside and like incredible Hulk my shirt off. Yes, I won! Because it was just months of I am vindicated. That anguish, that mental anguish, but then after that I'm like, man, this doesn't much feel like winning. Right. Like, it just feels like a waste. You had 40 hours at least spent screwing around with this whole deal. And all the money and the time aside, it was like the heartache that I put myself through. Yeah. That sucked. Well, may you never have that kind of experience. I've talked to a lot of friends and colleagues are like, man, you sure got the worst experience out of the way first. I was like, usually people get a little bit richer first before people target them for that kind of stuff. It's okay. You know, they have a little bit more like when somebody has got. 20 or 30 employees or something, they're like, Oh, he can afford it. I can just get the, you know, whatever unemployment they don't really deserve or this or that. And I just think the whole situation too, is a really interesting reflection of folks who went through, I would say school, particularly school that requires a lot of hands on interaction with people who went through school during the pandemic and they didn't have to show up for class. Right. They just did class online. Or they, you know, Did it when they felt like it and submitted the work, but when you're in a profession like mine, you can't just decide to show up when you feel like it. You show up whether you're, you know, feeling a hundred percent, you show up whether there's a foot of snow on the ground, you show up for people because that's what your job is. And our patients deserve us at a hundred percent. And in my mind, like when I walk through the door, like I wear scrubs in the office. Like it just makes it easy. I don't have to think about what I'm wearing in the morning. If they're embroidered with my name and my logo, and it's comfortable. It's like wearing jammies to work every day. It's really comfortable. When I put that, when I put those pants and that top on, it's go time. And it puts me in the mindset. Like I am in a work mindset. Even if you had a fight with Wes on your way to work. Yeah, whatever. I'm, I'm Dr. Jane now. Correct. In fact, like, you know, best jokes are always like, Oh, you got your doctor costume on, but it's true. Like there's something about it. And then when I take it off and I'm home, I try to leave that at work. And it's just interesting. Like, I, I hope that there's a younger generation of chiropractors and other healthcare professionals coming out of school that do have that drive and do have that passion to show up for people, because that's not what I was showing. People need it. Um, I feel like we've covered a lot of the, the journey. Um, we always talk about faith, family, and politics as our mandatory segments. Yikes. Um, yeah. Where would you like to start there? We can go in order, I guess. Um, so yeah, are you, my friend says, are you Jewish or Jewish? Uh, are you kosher? Do you do synagogue stuff at all? I mean Growing up, I think, you know, we observed the big holidays. Like, my mom's parents were more conservative. Like, I think they kept a kosher house. Like, they had different sets of dishes. And, um, me and my grandma made good chicken soup. Um. You had matzo balls and different things. Yeah. And like, we celebrated all the holidays together. Yeah. With our families. And which, when is Hanukkah after? We just had actually this, just after Christmas. Well, it's different because the Jewish calendar is different. Okay. But this year, the first day of Hanukkah actually fell on Christmas Day. Oh, is that right? Okay. And so this year Hanukkah came really late. Yeah. So that's usually it's little bit earlier. It's the 12th or 15th or, yeah. And so we celebrated Hanukkah growing up. Okay. And you know, we lit the menorah and said our prayers. Like my, my brother and I did go to Hebrew school for many years. I, you know, I joke around, I'm like, I was a Hebrew school dropout. Do you, do you have any Hebrew skills? Like can you say some words and stuff? Not really. I mean, I could sort of like pronounce text if I was looking at it, but I don't know what the words mean, but you know, all the different songs and the prayers that we used to say in like religious school, like, you know, if I ever do go to a temple for high holidays, like. A lot of it, like, just sounds really familiar because it's what I remember from my childhood. But we did go on a really incredible trip to Israel as a family when I was in high school. And so that was amazing. I was listening just this morning, actually, there's a Canadian Christian apologist on Joe Rogan. I think Rogan's slowly turning into a Christian, but like over the last five years, he's gotten more and more less dismissive, we'll say. But anyway, this, this Canadian guy, apparently. tore up this dude in some kind of a podcast debate and it went viral and this dude was like Sending cease and desist because he sounded like such a dumbass when debating this fellow Anyway, he was talking about how like at the time that the jewish faith the monotheism kind of Entered the world conversation, if you will. Like there was the Greeks and the Romans and there was like, yeah, your Zeus is kind of like my Poseidon and Athena is this and this, these gods live here and there. And then the Jews come, come along and they're like, well, no, actually there's one God and he created the whole works. And if you're gods or anything, they're demons. And just kind of the, uh, I guess in a lot of ways, the, the. the leadership of the Jews in terms of that whole, the monotheism element, I guess. And so how do you, are you a religious Jew? Do you believe in a creator being? I do. And I don't know that it's, you know, the Jewish version of that, but I, you know, I do think that there's something greater out there and I don't. Necessarily have a particular label for it. Fair? Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, do you, do you think of it as Yahweh or whatever in your mind's eye as not a, it's not that God that's described in some of your parents? No. Not necessarily sex or whatever. Yeah. Okay. I'm just, yeah, it's good, curious. Uh, like I am, I am the worst. Like, I don't, it's like, you know, you probably heard a lot growing up. Jewish in New York is like a very cultural thing. Right? I would imagine. I mean, and a lot of it has to do with like eating good food and just being with family and, yeah. Yeah. Um. Yeah, so there's a big cultural and religious, there's two different things kind of, there's cultural Jews and religious Jews in some respects, and probably just like Christianity and especially Christianity like in Europe, you know, my grandparents were more religious and now we're not as much. We're different, right? We observe our faith differently. Yeah, fair. Um, anything else on the faith topic that you would want to share? Really, I think it's, it's just good to be. You seem like you'd be like a coexist bumper sticker person, at least in spirit, if not in practice. I would never put that, yeah, correct. But I agree, and I honestly think that, you know, across most faiths and religions, we have a lot more in common than we have that's different, right? And at the bottom of it all, like, it's the golden rule, right? Do unto others. Yeah, I kind of describe it as the same force described by different kind of writers or whatever, even the, even the manifesting. Element like some people call that prayer You know, like it's kind of the same. Can my intentional communication with the universe or with God or with whatever. Can that sometimes make a difference in what happens? Yeah. And I think we all should, um, look to people with other opinions and faiths and differences, uh, with curiosity and respect and, um, freaking love each other. That's a co exist buffer sticker except for, you know, you don't have to have it. It offends the graphic designer in me. That's fair. Um, family. Let's, uh, we talked a little bit about family, but let's talk, maybe before we talk about your husband, let's talk about your, your family. Your mom, your dad, your brother, just a little bit more. Maybe your grandparents, if there's really impactful things or the smartest uncle ever. Oh man. I think, have you ever watched Seinfeld? Yeah, sure. So like, that was definitely my dad's grandparents, that whole dynamic. Like which one? Like Kramer or like Jerry? My grandmother was definitely Estelle Costanza. Oh, yeah. I got it. I got it. And the dad too. So that was just madness. They, my, my dad's parents had a little apartment and actually, uh, right on Coney Island, and so it was really cool to go visit them and we go to like the dirty beach on Brighton beach and like, you know, fill buckets with sand crabs and ride the roller coasters at Coney Island. And so that was cool. And my mom's. Parents, um, they were immigrants from Poland. Oh, wow. Okay. And they were a lot more traditional and yeah, they, uh, they passed when I was pretty young, so I don't have a ton of, they were like immigrants from Poland, like to escape ZI stuff and whatnot. Yeah. Like that kind of thing. I think they both immigrated to United States through the uk. Oh, wow. And I think they narrowly escaped being persecuted in the Holocaust because they looked Aryan, like they were blonde hair, blue eyed people. And Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. And that's part of, they were. Polish Jews, but not necessarily ethnic or they weren't, they were more Aryan looking as, as you are, I suppose is fair. Cause you're big too, for what I consider like the child of little Jewish people in New York or whatever. I mean, you're not big, but you're fairly tall. You're 5'8 or something. You're fairly physically strong. Like you could beat me up if I keep talking about how big you are. I'm a lover man, not a fighter. But I mean, you're not. I understand what you're saying. Anyway. Correct So, um, where were we at? We were just talking about, we were talking about my grandparents. Yes. Okay. Um, but, um, yeah. Okay, so that was the deeper family history is at least on that side. Yeah. The others were in New York for a long time kind of thing. And, yeah, my parents were both born and bred in Brooklyn and, um, yeah, they were both in public school education. They retired. Um. And they had, like, we were a family of four. We grew up in an apartment of, I would probably say, like, about a thousand square feet, which was pretty big. Did you have a separate bedroom from your brother? I did, but honestly, growing up, like, we were besties, my brother and I, and so he had a bunk bed, so I always slept in his bedroom when we were little. But obviously, when I got older and, you know, became a teenager, I was like, I'm sleeping with my little brother. I was just too cool for that. But just close. Yeah, and we still are. He married a wonderful woman who is from Muskegon, Michigan, and that's where they live with my niece Carmen. Muskegon. It's about an hour from Grand Rapids. Okay, yeah, yeah. On the lake. What a nice part of Michigan. It's pretty. Yeah. It is pretty. I dig it. Um, what would you say, uh, your, uh, favorite quality about your brother is? Ah, he's got a big heart. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a big kind heart. He might say the same thing about you. I don't know. Can't spit words in his mouth. Um, where'd you meet Wes? Wes and I, Wes and I met in Crested Butte. And how much, uh, how long before you first met, before you kissed him? Oh, Wes and I, we knew each other for a while before we even thought to maybe become interested in each other. It's a small town, you pretty much Know everybody that the odds are good, but the goods are good for the concern. That's right And I mean I was not looking for a relationship When I started hanging out with wes at all, I was actually living You know about seven miles outside of town on this little. Um, you know in a yurt like off the grid I was like, I want to be as isolated as possible. Wow. Had you had your heart broken or something or what was your premise? Wanted to be with myself. Yeah. Yeah, and You know I started working at Dispatch West at that time, was working for the Crestbeat Marshall's office. And so we communicated with each other just because we had to professionally. And then I had, we had a mutual friend who had shoulder, shoulder surgery. And I picked him up from the hospital and got him home. And, um, I was like, hey man, let me stock your fridge so that you're set up. And so I went to the store and I was like, I'm going to come home and cook you dinner before I head home. And so I went to the store, got back to his place, and He's like, Wes is downstairs winterizing his motorcycle, because Wes would keep his motorcycle in Lars's garage for the winter. And he said, see if he wants to come up for dinner. I knew Wes, and so I was like, hey Wes, I'm upstairs cooking Lars dinner. Like, he just got Got in from surgery. Yeah. I said, why don't you come up for dinner? I was making breakfast for dinner. I freaking hate those tubes of biscuits that explode. Scary. Yeah, the pop worse than a champagne. I know and so Wes was just talking about like, hey, you know, I really hope to you know, ride to Baja and eat fish tacos on the beach. I was like who is this guy? And like, in that moment, I was like, I think I, yes, you got a motorcycle too. I know. It was like, I just had no idea. And so that's, you know, we had made plans to hang out. It didn't really happen. I was living down in Gunnison at that time because that's where dispatch was about like, you know, 30 miles down valley from Crested Butte, but I was going to be spending New Year's Eve up in Crested Butte that year. And I said, Hey man, I'm going to be up in Crested Butte for the night. And a bunch of us are planning on going out for dinner. Why don't you join us? And he did. We had dinner, we went out, the Brick Oven is a, was, was a pizza place there, it's no longer open. I've been there before. I know, it's like, just all these cool memories. But we went over to the Brick, where we both worked, actually. Like, I was a delivery driver, so was he. He worked at the kitchen, I worked at the counter. And, um, I said, Hey, I'm going to go grab us a drink. What do you want? He's like, I'll just get me whatever you're having. So I got an IPA and a shot of Maker's Mark. Okay. And for each of us, and it turns out that Wes is an IPA drinker and he loves Maker's Mark. And I. Did not want to drive home that night because I had been drinking and everybody else had got home. Well, then I was like shit I Was like hey, I said services in that loop. Oh, no, then I didn't cross the Butte Didn't exist yet. Oh, and so I was like, hey, can I stay your place? But I was Very clear, I was like, I am sleeping on your couch, like, I am not doing this tonight. And so I did. Like, we, I, you know, we went and we sat on his futon, we watched Gross Point Blank. Great movie. And I watched Point Blank. Oh, Gross Point Point Break. Different. Gotta watch Gross Point Blank. It's a good movie. Alright. Um, old school. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. I think it, it's tickling a memory bell, but I, you know, I, I haven't seen it for sure. It's your homework. Yeah. Okay. And, you know, I slept on the futon and that's it. We just, we started spending more time with one another and it had me, I don't know, I don't maybe. a few weeks, a month. Like, I was living out of town. He came over for, I cooked dinner one night and it turns out, like, I found out I cooked all the things he hates. I was like, I didn't know. I was like, I'm going to make us nice dinner. And it's like all the things he didn't want to eat, like salmon filet and, uh, like mashed potatoes and with this, all this garlic and it's like all this stuff that he didn't want to eat. And, uh, He left after dinner that night and nothing happened and Not even a kissy yet? Not yet. And he left and I think he, it was winter and he left his gloves. And he was outside trying to probably scrape his windshield and realized, oh my gloves are inside. So he came in for his gloves and That was our first kiss. Yeah. Like, kind of in the doorway. Yeah. So that was weeks after the romance kind of started. I think so. That's very, uh, old fashioned of you. I was like, I'm not doing this the same way. Right. That's always yielded the same outcome, which was an ended relationship, right? I was like, we're going to do something different. And how long, uh, how long before you guys made it official or you are married? Yeah. Oh yeah. We got married actually when I was in chiropractic school. So we dated for about five years before we got married. Okay. Okay. Um, like we talked about before, I dragged him out of paradise to move to Atlanta, Georgia so I could go to school. But his family, he grew up in Mobile, Alabama, so it was actually really nice to be close to his family while, for the four years we were down there. So we saw them a lot more because it was a pretty easy drive. And yeah, we He's like, why wouldn't I marry this girl that's going to come out of college with 185, 000? Right? Yeah. It's good. I want, was it four years of chiropractic? Two years? Four. Yeah. Well, it's a three and a half year program if you go straight through, but then I had those six months of undergrad work too. Okay. So it's 50 grand a year ish or at least was ish at that time with all the everything. For sure. Dang. And Wes and I never talked about marriage, ever. And so when he proposed, I was completely shocked. I had no idea. Really? No idea. Like, you never thought about it? Like you were five years in? I mean, we were like We were happy and he was my person and we had the cats. No, like, I mean, if you haven't noticed, I'm not the most traditional person. No, no. And so I never felt at that time, I was like, I don't need this. certificate just to, like, give me confidence in my relationship. And could you even imagine me wearing a traditional wedding dress, Kurt? Um, no. No. Definitely not. I've seen you at different, uh, you've won awards where I've been the emcee. Yes, you have. I think that's how we first met. Might have been. But, yeah. I mean, we did it our own way and it was really cool. Yeah. What would be your, uh, why would you say, um, you kept coming back, uh, to Wes? Was it, like, you just vibed well? Yeah. Was it He He I mean, now like we've been together for 17 years, like he really is the yin to my yang. Like he, he's patient and he's calm. He's not nervous. He's not a worrier. Like, so all of my idiosyncrasies, like he really balances them out really well. And that gives me a huge sense of peace. It's really good. And are you likewise kind of like exciting and stirring things up Yeah, like He'd be just a boring dude. No, I don't think Wes would ever be boring. Wes, he He doesn't have fish tacos on the beach. I know. And he's got just this like sleeper, awesome sense of humor. Um, but yeah, like I, I'm kind of, I don't know, I guess the party planner, which is interesting role for me because I am not like the most extroverted person. Like I really recharge my batteries being home and Well, you're all excellent execution though, I think. Yeah. And so like, you know. If we're going to be, if, if one of us is going to be booking like a ball or vacation, it's going to be me booking it for us, typically. Yeah. Did you guys ever consider children? You know, for a short time. Yeah. Like, and I don't know that it was ever like out of this massive desire to have kids, but it was maybe more of like, I don't know, like, I don't know if I'd be okay not knowing if it could have been, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, just, if it happens, great, if it doesn't happen, great. Right, right. And actually now that I'm 46, I am eternally grateful that I'm not a mom. Like, I love kids, I love my niece, I love caring for kids in my practice, and I just love my life. And I love the simplicity of, of, you know, Being able to pick up and go and do what I want when I want to. And, um, I, parenting, I can't even imagine how difficult it is. The world's a really weird place. I was like, uh, 42 maybe. And Jill was 36 when her parents were like, Hey, if you want to do the IVF thing or something to try to figure it out, you know, we'll, I was like, that'd be 60. You know, I was like, I don't, I don't know if I want that, you know? And we were still pretty broke at the time. Look at what you guys are doing now. Like you're, you're being. You know, parents to exchange students. Like, there's so many ways to adulting. We could foster a kid or something if we wanted to. Yes, 100%. We can even adopt one as long as they're like 14 already. Yeah. No diapers. Right. But man, parenting a teenager? Yeah, screw that. No thank you. Yeah, I mean, I get enough of that with these exchange students, kinda. Yeah. Try to, try to leave them smarter and more grown up than they came. Yeah, we're cat people. I don't like to hear that, really. We have a cat as well, but I don't, we don't call ourselves cat people. I mean, like, we also live in a small condo. It wouldn't be, like, ideal for a dog. Well, cats are like, Kind of the they're kind of a low investment critter. Like they're so self contained. Yeah, they like to be petted and stuff like that But if you go away for ten days and we saw Sure, but but they don't need it. No, they're self contained. Our cats are dog like. They like being around people. Okay, they're very social Would you have a one word description for your two cats or is it more than one more than two? We do we had litter mates Leo and bonkers two males. And we lost bonkers last year. It was really hard to lose our buddy, but it was also hard on Leo, his brother. Like he'd never been alone his whole life for 15 years. He's 15 years old and he was a sad boy. And so we're like, you know, Wes and I weren't necessarily ready, but we're like, we're going to get our cat a cat. And so we did. We got a, we adopted from Animal Friends Alliance. They're wonderful. And so, And we got a little Calico who was a stray and they thought she was about a year and a half and she had just had a litter of kittens and she was like sort of found on the street and taken into a foster home and we went to meet her. We've just fell in love with her. She was just the sweetest, skinniest little thing. And, um, we got her home, you know, for two days. Oh yeah. So we thought she's a lunatic. Her name is Birdie and she's just, uh, she's a wild cat. And she, you know, she has a 15 year old brother who. You know, Leo's pretty chill and Bernie just wants to chase him around and fuck with his tail. He's like, can you know. So, you know, it's, they're not besties, but they co exist. They co exist like the bumper sticker. Right. Yeah, they're alright. Um, politics. We better, uh, try to be efficient with our time here to get you out on time. Uh, where do you politics lie? What's your, uh Ugh, I don't feel like the current president. Political system has a party or a individual that reflects my beliefs. Um, how did you, you didn't, uh, take a week off after the Trump election though. It wasn't that serious. That's scary. You know, I just keep on keeping on like, there's that, like, you know, you make your voice though and you, you cast a vote and that's the cool part about democracy is you accept the outcome. Right. And you know, it's hard because I think there's ideals espoused by the democratic party that I'm like, yes, there's ideals espoused by the Republican party. I'm like, yes. But at the end of the day, A person's a person. How about, uh, how about Canada? Should we take Canada as our 51st state? Have you been watching that? I have a lot of really good friends in Canada. I'd love for them to be Be a state with us. Yeah, then we could just go there. Right? No passport? Yeah, exactly. Drive across the border? I don't know. You know, I, I try to walk a fine line, you know, politically and just being like, having my head buried in the news, like I want to, I want to be informed. I don't want to be ignorant to what's happening in the world, but I can't get lost in it either because it's just madness. Well, and if, if 65 percent of Canadians said, yeah, actually, it sounds pretty nice to be a state instead. That could just do it, right? I have no idea. That's above my pay grade. I think I'm good at a lot of things. And actually my office, there's not a lot of rules. Like, you know, I take what I do really seriously as far as like the doctoring part, but we have a great time. We have a really upbeat environment in my office. We have a great time. Like there's always laughter and fun, but the one rule I have is we don't talk politics in the office and we don't talk religion in the office because everyone comes from a different place. You know, I don't know who's sitting in my lobby or in the chair outside the adjusting room listening to this conversation. And no matter what my beliefs are, it has no bearing on my ability to care for the person in front of me. And I would never want that to be the reason why somebody was put off from getting the care that they need. Yeah, that's fair. Alright. So that's the one rule I for me, I like, I think it's better to talk about things a little bit instead of it being like topics that you can't talk about. For sure. In certain venues and. Right. You know. Podcasts are probably better. Like. Yeah. Like I hope it was very comfortable talking about. Oh, it's okay. The faith topic. For sure. Earlier and just, you know, curious about matzo balls and Hanukkah and what not also. It's good food, man. Yeah. But not when I have a, like a waiting room full of people. Right. Like that's not the time or the place. If you've got matzo ball breath, you're not coming to my clinic. Right. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's weird. Like, oh man, social media is just such a weird place. What do you think about Facebook changing their policy? I don't see, I did see it. We'll see if that, uh, actually holds to be true. What do you think about it? It's like, you think it's good for Facebook? That there's not fact checkers. Right. Or that they're more of a community notes model kind of thing. I don't know. I don't know. If somebody's a fact checker, they're always corruptible, it feels like. Of course, there's always a bias to it. Yeah. And no matter what you're looking for, you're going to find, you're going to find the answer out there. Like, as in, if you think you're right, you can find evidence there that you're right. Right. Uh, you know Babylon B? Yeah. Yeah. They, they released their top 10, uh, fact check moments of 2024 to commemorate Facebook's, uh, Zuckerberg's, so that the top one was, uh, their article was, uh, CNN purchases industrial sized washing machine to spin the news before publication. And Facebook threatened them with, like, banning their account because it wasn't obvious that this was satire. Oh my god. Anyway, uh, I like the Babylon Bee. I think it's pretty hilarious. It's funny. I think all of that's made us incredibly dumber, though. Social media. Oh for sure. Yeah. No, I'm a pump and dump kind of guy. I drop my podcasts on it and I go down the rabbit hole sometimes and I'm like, who are these people and why am I looking at their photos? The loco experience Are you prepared to share your loco experience? Not your loco think tank experience? Oh, yeah Although you can do a commercial there if you'd like to, but the namesake of the podcast is the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share. You know, you had prepared me that you were going to ask this question in the email, and I, to be honest, haven't given much thought to it. Well, it's best on the cuff anyway. I know. I, you know, we talked a lot about like, I've had a really eclectic life. Yeah. Any, like, life threatening experiences, near deaths, anything like that? Thank God, no. Okay. Um, you know, I took some crazy 911 calls, for sure. Okay. Yeah. What do you think is the most number of beers you've ever had in one day? Definitely an undergrad. I'm just going to keep asking you inappropriate questions. That's fine. Until you've come up with a good local experience. Oh gosh, like you're just distracting me from the task at hand. We went to St. Lucia. Recently. Yeah. Um, and we were there for 10 days and they got these little petton, like 270 milliliter, 4.5% little beers. Yeah. That was kind of the island beer And they're just like, you just drink'em. Especially when you're coming from elevation. Sure. So my estimate was like around 150 peons in 10 days, like 15. I would die a day for me. I would die. No, you wouldn't. Like not at sea level. Maybe. That's like six IPAs. I feel like I got That's like six IPAs, seriously. Most of my drinking behind me, seriously, when I was in high school. Oh, good. Yeah. So, um, So you don't have any vices in the, in the drinking days, even when you were ski bombing and stuff like that? Yeah, I mean we partied for sure, but not like heavy, crazy stuff. I don't know, like I've, I like to have fun, but I also like have this cautious part of me. You never took a hero's dose of mushrooms or anything like that? No, not a hero's dose. You don't have hero's doses? No. I do. I've never experienced it personally, but I don't know, like maybe I'm too much of a control freak to, you know, I think, yeah, probably want to let go like that, but maybe it'd be good for me. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Oh dude. Rick Perry, uh, the former governor of Texas was on Rogan advocating for Ibogaine. That's like this like kind of terrible gross drug, but it's getting a lot of the PTSD People and the suicidal things and getting people off opioids. Oh more than anything So this he was on there with this guy from Kentucky that got like everything Crossed bridges except for the new administration came in and pulled the plug on doing a study of this Ibogaine drug to mostly to get people off the opioids, fucking people up all over Appalachia. Um, but it's also fucking people up in Texas and Wisconsin and Nebraska and everywhere else. And actually, you know, there's different organizations within chiropractic that do a lot of lobbying and no one else helps with pain relief. Chiropractic care. I mean, as corny as that sounds, it's true. Like it's a natural way of helping people deal with pain. So anyway, it's a really interesting, um, I guess it's kind of adjacent to the political side, but with this, like you think about Uh, with the, the maha element of the maggot too, right? I hope some of that stuff is true. I hope we get food additives out of our supply. Totally. You know, I hope some of the, like, I hope, I hope. These ideas people are gonna put their money where their mouths are. I really sincerely do agree Did you think of anything crazy look crazy experience? Nothing give me like a topic. I don't know Gosh, like I've literally had like seven near death experience. Really? I mean, I don't like I haven't had like a boring life by any stretch Yeah, nothing. So I mean anything that really I guess to me like One thing that's kind of crazy is like, you're like, I signed up for this AmeriCorps thing, and they're like, Here, drive this truck to this place, and you're like, I don't, I mean, But it's, like, we kind of covered that, and it's not really crazy crazy. It's not crazy crazy. Have you ever done a long road trip to a foreign land where you didn't really know what you were doing? Well, I mean, I drove to Crested Butte by myself. Yeah, that's pretty crazy. A week after the dude said, G. A. K., I'm not going. Sure. I mean, that was a big leap in my life for sure. I think going to chiropractic school was another big leap. Um, that's not crazy though. It's just like seeing an opportunity and, you know, I think the move out to Crested Butte from, I mean, the walk in closet that you were living in was a pretty big draw, I'm sure. And so it was kind of, Like you said time to make a change. Yeah, but I mean that changed the trajectory of my whole life for sure But had you even been no to the rockies before sight unseen? I didn't know I was moving to literally a town at the end of a dead end road 1100 people I had no idea And now I think honestly having traveled more of the state of colorado after being you know, i've been here for a long time I still think that's the most beautiful place, you know one thing that uh, People say like one thing that's interesting about marriage. You've been 17 years You is that it's like, you don't, you don't stay married to the same person. Like we all have these different chapters in our life. And that's one reason to be married is so that provided you both want to stay, like you're just patient enough to weather some of these changes in chapters or whatever. For sure. So, and I mean, I'm so glad to have somebody to come home to that almost doesn't live in the same world, right? Like that's why we have our entrepreneurial peers because they get what we were going through. And it's just nice to come home and be like, let's just start Watch the episode of Bad TV. Do you want to give a shout out to, uh Either Moses, uh, my landlord here, uh, chapter, your chapter facilitator for sure. So I, I think we started, I mean, this is going to sound super weird. I started in 2019. I, the reason I remember that is because that's the year my mom passed away and I remember having one of my first chapter meetings and it was literally like, I was probably June of 2019 cause my mom passed in May and you know, we do these check ins and they're, you know, at a scale of zero to 10, how you doing personally? I'm like, like two, like pretty shitty, but these are people that I just met and I'm like, yeah, I don't know how. Deep of a dive to take and, and you know, so many of those people who were in that room that day are still in the room. And I'm so grateful. Like Moses is an incredible facilitator. Like he's just got all these years of experience and he's willing to share it from his own abundance. Right. Like, and it's like, I look forward to it. Like, you know, when we first talked, I'm like, I got to sit in a room for four hours. But like, I look forward to that every single month. And like that. I let go of a lot of stuff like during COVID as far as, um, memberships and groups and all this stuff that I was doing, because you know, what you get out of something is what you're able to put into it. And I realized it was a good time to evaluate a lot of that stuff. And I was like, well, you know, here's what I'm keeping and here's what I'm letting go of. And I'm so grateful, like for my group, like they have become really important people in my life and people who understand like the ins and outs of what we go through. So like, I think that's, uh, Testament to you and like what you've created the space that you've created to help us, you know, it's the space Yes, it's the but it's the people that create experience, you know, yeah And I mean, I don't know what other chapters are like, but I like to think we're the best you're right up there You're right up there. You just can't say it If people want to look up precision Precisionchiropractic. org or com or something like that? Yes, there's a lot of Precision Chiropractics and ironically I know most of them across the country, right? So we're PrecisionChiroCO. com Okay, got it. Yep, CO for Colorado. And do you do like, Instagrams or LinkedIn? Yep, so it's uh, I suck at the social media thing for my business. Like I put stuff up there, like we have a platform that automatically solicits review from patients. So when people leave us reviews, they automatically post our social media. Like, I don't mind it. Like, I don't take care of it that much, but we are on Instagram and Facebook at Precision Chiro CO and I have a personal LinkedIn profile. Jay Brewer, DC. Cool. Yep. Anything you want to ask me before we wrap up? What do you think about the tank? I think it's really cool. You've been inside it before, right? We've been inside it, yep. I thought so. Um, when we were at your place. We need to, um, be better about trying to, I would like to do a, uh, like at least a maybe three, four, five. Riggs camping trip and go up to some kind of national forest, maybe just up to Veda Vu area. Yeah, for sure up there. Yeah, it's sweet. We could hike, we could ride bikes. Totally. Let's do it. Okay, let's get a weekend. Loco van extravaganza. Yep, Camperoo. We're in. All right. Okay. Thanks, Jade. Thanks, Kurt. Bye for now. Bye.