The LoCo Experience
The LoCo Experience is produced and sponsored by LoCo Think Tank - and sometimes others! Our mission is to uncover as much business education as possible while getting to know the founders and leaders of amazing organizations. You'll feel like you really know our guests after each episode, and if we're doing our job well, you'll learn business principles and tips from them along the journey and be both inspired and entertained. Episodes feature a range of local and regional business and community leaders as guests in a conversational interview format. The more interesting the journey, the better the experience!
The LoCo Experience
EXPERIENCE 196 | Forrest Cramer, Luxury Furniture Artist
Since he was a little boy, Forrest Cramer has always been an artist. He was drawing recognizable profiles and pencil-shading landscapes at an age when most of us were working on stick-figures, and in his late teens he had the opportunity to apprentice with a local violin-maker. He wasn’t ready yet to make it his lifetime craft, landed a role in antique furniture restoration - and later - as his skills improved - reproduction.
When Forrest started his business, he did a lot of different things. Custom and semi-custom cabinetry, tables and art shelves, interior design elements - he could figure out how to do it. And sometimes, he figured out how to make enough margin on it to be profitable. But his exacting craftsmanship and urge for distinctive design made it tough to compete in the volume production market, and he’s been shifting his business more and more toward the custom and heirloom quality furniture market, and in 2024 fully emerged as Forrest Cramer - Luxury Furniture Artist.
And - he’s a really interesting guy. Many children, simple tastes, old-school values. He’s an interesting contrast to his typical client - who might be looking for a signature piece for their 3rd home 6,000 sq. ft. “cabin” in the foothills outside Aspen. He’s the best and only luxury furniture artist I know, I dig him a lot and you will too - so please enjoy my conversation with Forrest Cramer.
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Music By: A Brother's Fountain
Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is Forrest Kramer, luxury furniture artist. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. So, uh, I guess my first question, you know based on you're a little younger than me But did you get like run forest run? teasing As like a grade school or middle school is that that was actually high school high school middle high school yeah, and actually, you know, I I think probably for Maybe four or five years, I refused to see the movie because as soon as it came out, it was, it was run, forced run and, you know, laugh is like a box of chocolates, you know? And so all that, yeah, so I, it took me a while to actually like consent to see the movie cause I got so sick of all the lines and, um, but yeah, you know, when I saw it, of course it's a great movie. Yeah. Well, you probably felt that you should have thought earlier. I should have. Yeah, but like I was feeling teased, I should have been feeling like. Oh, sweet. You think I'm like Forrest Gump? That's awesome. Well, yeah, I mean, he is a little bit slow, but yeah. Well, very accomplished. And you know, funny that now I, I have the, uh, you know, shortly after I saw the movie, we went to the Bubba Gump Shrimp Company when it was up in, I think it was in Breckenridge. Yes. I think is what I had it, it was there for a long time. I'm not sure if it still is or, yeah, I don't think it is anymore. But, um, yeah, so I bought the Run Forest Run license plate that I now have in my shop. So, um, you know, it's, I've definitely gotten over my. So tell me, uh, tell me about luxury furniture artists, like, um, maybe just give me an example of, of what that is. Actually means you could make me a coffee table that's nicer than this one. Um, you know, potentially Pretty sure because it's splitting on the scene right there. I think it was 47 Yeah, I can go a little bit higher than 47, um, yeah, so luxury furniture, um, really what that what that comes down to when when I talk about luxury furniture, especially as art is, you know, Anybody everybody needs furniture Um, and really just taking that to the next level. Um, I think in two ways. One is just the quality. Um, you know, I build really to be generational heirloom quality furniture. It's you know, it's all solid wood. It's 300 years from now. Yeah, you might have had to have it at the Antiques Roadshow. You might have had to refinish it once or twice to keep the finish in good condition, but the furniture isn't going to be falling apart. Yeah. And then secondarily, really just taking, um, you know, a dining table or a console table or just any, any piece of furniture that you need. And instead of just being Purely functional to make it art to make it a centerpiece of the house And to really make a statement and so a lot of times that includes bentwoods. Sometimes it includes carving It really just depends on the client's personality I was gonna say are you doing this for the client like you're trying to figure out? Yep, what art fits right with them in their house? Yeah, and so, you know, it tends to be very relational I'll meet with I'll meet with a client and You know, first of it is just observation of the surroundings. What is it, you know, what am I walking into here? What, try to get a feel for what art they have on the wall. Do they love Japanese? Do they have a lot of like super modern art? Are they very traditional? Um, to just get a feel of their aesthetic and then their personality as well. I mean, there's a lot of people that are very. A lot of my clients are very, uh, reserved, very, um, just kind of low key, and a lot of times those tend to be people who are more traditional. There are some people that are very, like, forward and outgoing, and they like really bold. Edgy. Edgy pieces that, you know, a lot of times what that means is we're going to do something that has a lot of color in it, a lot of, um, you know, bold, like black contrasted with natural wood. Or there's one client that I have, we're actually going to get, uh, we're going to bring in some blue and it's curly maple, which has got a really wild grain to it. And then it's going to have, um, blue kind of a green, blue leg in contrast with the gray. And so, um, yeah, the design process really is just kind of gauging a lot of that. And then designing something that really speaks to that personality and their style. Um, and like I said, it runs a very wide range. Um, my background, I have a, a deep background in antique restoration and very, very traditional woodworking methods. Um, and then also have kind of pushed into a lot of more modern designs as well. So I've got a really wide range that I can design in. And. How do you get good at the relational part? Like, I have to think that the designs are somewhat living in your head, and you're trying to pull them out and matchmake to the right person a little bit? Yeah, and This person that's your client? Yeah, and so really, it can be challenging at times, because sometimes, you know, when you have a one or a two hour meeting with someone, and you're trying to really get a feel for something that is going to be in their house for, the rest of their life, potentially. It's, it can be a heavy burden. It can be a challenge. And you know, I don't, it's, it's funny. I don't always nail that first time. I'm assuming you're doing like sketches or something, or maybe it's even like Computer stuff where you can do 3D kind of designs first and be like, Hey, before I spend 89 hours carving this thing. For sure. For sure. Yeah, so you know, a lot of times what the process looks like is when I first sit down with them, we'll just kind of talk ideas and I'll typically get out, I've just got a little, you know, a little pad that I can sketch some ideas on and just gauge from them, Okay, is this the right direction or is that the right direction? Okay. You know, if you start sketching something out that's really modern and you're like, yeah, that's not the direction I want to go. Um, you can gauge that pretty quickly. And a lot of times when I walk away from that first meeting, I'll have kind of a concept of like, okay, here's my, you know, the basic size, here's the basic design, the basic style that they like. And then within that, it's just go dream. And put up some proposals kind of, is this all wood? You're not building couches or do you put cushions on the dining room chairs or anything like that? So, you know, because of my experience in antique furniture, um, I did learn to upholster. I did learn to cane. I did learn to do a lot of these other skills. I don't know about cane. I don't know about wood. Uh, like, you know, the old style cane chairs that have like the, like a rush seat or something like that. So, um, you know, I can do that upholstery. I pretty much, um, you know, I'll leave that to the professionals. Um, it could be a part of your piece, but you, it can be a part of it, but I'll contract it out. Yep. Same with steel. Um, I design a lot. That incorporates steel and I work color, texture, strength, um, usually just a design element. Okay. Um, as you know, if somebody wants it to be bomb proof steel, you know, yeah, steel is a steel band around the outside of it and tighten it down. Good. Exactly, exactly. But a textural element where you have wood grain. That tends to be very organic, very, a lot of movement in it. And then steel can be pretty flat blank slate kind of thing. Um, I do, you know, I do do some with, um, like custom patinas. And so you'll have different like chemical agents that you can spray on steel. That'll change the color. You can go down to black. You can make it look like bronze. You can make it look like brass. I mean, there's a lot of different things you can do. And so I. You know, I've had a fair bit of experience doing that, but most of it really just comes to a design element and whether we want to incorporate steel as part of the design, um, done some work with glass again, subcontract the glass cutting, but it's just a design element within a piece. And it's really, I guess, uh, like if you're contracting out the glass cutting, like it's a. It's a plan, like you've got almost a full, like, all the different dimensions, everything like that is all figured out, and you're building it to that. Sure, yeah, so going back to, right, going back to the process. So, you know, once we get through the initial, the initial phase, what my next step is, I'll sit down and put it into, I use SketchUp, um, and draw the whole thing out, three dimensional. with colors, with textures. A lot of times I'll actually import textures in, you know, I'll grab a photo off the web so that, you know, if it's going to be something that is like, for example, honey locust, I'll pull in a honey locust sample. And so they can really get a feel for the color, the texture, what it is that they're getting before. And, you know, they look at 3D renderings of that. And a lot of times I'll even draw it. Like I'll have dimensions of their room. I'll just kind of snap a couple of photos and I'll put a lot of those elements back in the drawing so that they can really visualize it in their room. Um, and then, um, yeah, so at that point then they have dimensions, they have, you know, all the renderings gives them some ammunition to actually make a good decision on. And is this like, talk to me about like the, are these one offs or do people have a set time? You know, a whole dining set might be a combination, but also could just be a coffee table or a buffet. Sure. I, I've done both. Um, I think design wise, you know, from interior design perspective, 20, 30 years ago, I think sets were in vogue. People would be like, okay, I want a whole dining room suite where everything matches. Yeah. Yeah. And then I don't know, you know, I'm not sure why. design went away from that. Lately, it feels like, okay, so you have a theme that everything kind of fits in, but then you have accent pieces here and accent pieces there. And so you're not, you know, it's been kind of out of vogue for quite a while to actually have everything match. Um, a lot of it is contrast. You know, you'll have a really clean, modern dining table, and then you'll have kind of funky chairs to go along with it. Yeah, yeah. Um, or, you know, a coffee table that is really just a contrasting accent piece. Um, uh, There's a lot of people who design very modern houses and then they'll put in a very traditional, almost antique, like French antique with the paint and the color and all of that. That just really is a pop in the middle of a very otherwise clean, straight home. Interesting. Really calls your attention to that. Yeah. These crooked lines all of a sudden. It's, you know, it's, it's kind of a way of adding texture and color. is contrasting to the more, you know, a lot of modern is a lot of grays, a lot of blacks, a lot of whites, a lot of like straight lines. And so to add something that is. More figured. Yeah, yeah. Adds that little pop of color and interest to an otherwise relatively, you know, straight, flat room. And who, who are your clients? Like, are you going all over the country to make and sell these pieces? Or do you gotta go there? Do you Zoom with people kinda sometimes? Um, most of my, most of my career, On my own has been focused in Northern Colorado. Okay. Um, I've shipped a, I've shipped a few pieces to Texas. I've taken one to Montana. You know, I've had some pieces that go, that have gone across the country. That's been the exception rather than the rule. Okay. Um, one of my goals over the last year has been to kind of expand that because of the nature of who is my client. So we just don't have that many. Really wealthy right people right quite a few but not that many. Yeah, we definitely have some wealthy people here Because we're talking about ten twenty fifty thousand hundred thousand dollar pieces, right? Yeah, for sure Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we don't do much for ten, right? You know, I think You know and that's definitely changed over the last five years Um, with, you know, some of it's inflation, some of it's just really pushing into the art realm. Um, you know, I've, I've had, you know, some of my clientele that were more, you know, basic pieces early on that have come back and, you know, it's like, we're kind of tipping on that edge of like, Oh, I can't really, you know, afford. You know, what you're doing now versus what you did when you first started. I mean, starting off, you kind of do anything and everything that comes in. So I did a lot of cabinetry. I did a lot of other things that, um, you know, as I've kind of focused my efforts on art furniture, it's definitely narrowed, you know, the price has gone up and it's narrowed the clientele. So, yeah. Um, you know, my, I think when I started the whole process of, you know, a new website and rebrand in the last year or so, you know, my goal was. I'm going to center in Northern Colorado, but I want to be relevant nationwide. So if someone, you know, someone in LA or someone in New York looks at my website, it's like, it's, it's not something that they're like, Oh, this is, you know, this is a small town builder there, you know, we're not going to ship across the country from this guy. It's like, no, this guy has something to offer. This guy has chosen to live in Northern Colorado, despite the fact that he's a luxury furniture artist. Right. could sell to anybody. Sure. And so, you know, they wouldn't hesitate to reach out and, you know, yeah, well, you could fly out to LA if you're going to sell a handful of pieces of whatever you can. Yeah. Without that personal relational experience. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And it, you know, I think it may, you know, may start as a zoom call just to get a feel for, you know, what their level of interest is. Plane tickets every time somebody puts your contact page in. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, if that's what you want to do, right? Like, are you just you? Do you have any helpers, like sanding wood or cutting things? No, as far as it goes with the build right now, it's just me. Okay, so it's very much a craftsman kind of a business. It is. Uh, pretty much a craftsman industry. Yeah, and really when it comes to it, um, you know, when, when someone approaches me, Um, as an artist, they're really, you know, they're buying the furniture, but they have to buy into me. They have to buy into believing in, you know, my work and my ethic and, you know, and all of that. And, um, you know, there are pieces that are huge and I have to bring in people to help. I mean, I've had five, six guys helping me carry tables before that, you know, the 16 foot long table that, you know, weighs probably close to a thousand pounds. I mean, you need a couple of guys to carry that around. Um, so I do have some guys that I can call on and I've had some people come in and help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, where's your studio or where do you where do you do the work? So I my shop is up in Bellevue studio It is a studio it's a studio with a with an overhead garage door and a lot of wood dust Yeah, so no, it's it's up in Bellevue kind of right at the edges of foothills. Sure So right by morning fresh dairy, you know, I know the neighborhood. I'm a motorcycle rider. So I've been past your place at a higher rate of speed than published on the roadside more than a few times. Probably so. Wrist Canyon is actually one of the most amazing places in the country, um, for motorcycling because Really? the culture, well it's a great little road, first of all, but the culture of Wrist Canyon, I would say 70 to 80 percent of cars, when they see you catching up to them, um, at a faster pace, pull over and let you pass. Really? Yeah, it's just the, it's like everybody just, they're all locals, right? They're just like, eh, go have fun, you know? Yeah, nobody goes up wrist, you know, unless they're like on your way to something. Yeah, and well, and bicyclists too. I mean, I think Wrist Canyon for bicycles is hugely popular. Very much so, yeah. Yeah. Nope. So anyway, that's, uh, for what it's worth, I've barely been to any other place in the country where drivers just get out of your way as a motorcycle. That's interesting. Yeah. Which makes it really fun. Did not know that. But yeah, definitely, definitely have gotten passed by bicyclists going down this canyon. You know, they hit some of those, those straightaways and they're just like, I've been nearly passed on my motorcyclist, Mike, by bicyclists. I believe it. I believe it. Down those hills. Yep. Um, so, so you, you kind of have this process where you have this engagement, you start You know, do some sketches, you ultimately have a nice rendering, and then, okay, here's the contract, pull the trigger, here's the deposit, you probably get like half up front or something, because materials are expensive. Yeah, materials are definitely high, for sure. And where do you source? I'm assuming you can't just go down to the Home Depot and get the right kind of wood. Yeah, definitely not Home Depot. Even Sutherland's is probably Yeah, uh, no, no, it's definitely, um, you know, more your specialty lumber shops. Um, here, you know, I make it a priority a lot of times to buy as local as I can as far as, um, there's a, there's an urban mill here at Baldwin Hardwoods. Um, he, you know, he gets a lot of like the ash and the walnut, uh, elms, honey locust, those types of woods that are a lot more unique. Yeah. Um. And they're locally harvested, too. They're locally harvested, yeah. City things and stuff. Um, you know, I've done, I have a client who has property right up there by my shop and they took down five or six walnut trees, we had them milled. Oh, wow. And, you know, eventually built six or eight pieces of furniture for them. Wow. Um, and so there's, there's definitely something that ties some memory. When you have a local tree, or especially something that's, I've, I've, I've done a lot of work for people where they had, you know, their walnut tree died, they had to cut the walnut tree down. Let's, let's keep that memory right here. This, you know, this table on, you know, in my dining room used to be, you know, used to be right out in my backyard. I think that's, uh, like it's those kinds of stories, honestly, that will really get people attracted to your work. Right, and I think that when it comes to, when it comes to luxury furniture. furniture, it really becomes less about it being a piece of furniture and more about it being a story. Yeah. So sometimes, um, sometimes the story is this was a tree in my backyard. That's now my dining table. Um, sometimes I have one client, um, they said, build me a table for a mermaid. And it's like, what does that mean? Um, and, So the, you know, those are the challenges sometimes that, that create the most rewarding pieces of furniture. Um, where, you know, what ended up happening with that table is I built it on honey locust, which if anybody knows honey locust, it's a very, very wild grain. And so, you know, when you think about like the sea and just the wildness of the waves, and so that, you know, that comes through. Yeah, and the, the wood grain is very, very similar. Um, and then, but we contrasted that with an inlay, a brass that was kind of a fan shape that if you look at like a seashell and you kind of see that like fan shaped rib in the seashell. So it has this brass inlay that cuts through that wild wood grain. Mm hmm. the honey locust is very, um, kind of a pinkish orange color. Oh, really? And so you kind of have, there was this like wild wood grain, very feminine, like pink color. The brass was very soft in, in its tone. And the shell kind of symbolism. Yeah. But it also had to be large and like really strong. And the honey looks, you know, is, is a very tough wood. And so there was just a lot of design elements that we kind of put together there where it's like, it's masculine and it's feminine at the same time. You have the wild wood grain, you have the, the strength of the brass, you know. So there's a lot of like give and take in the balance and, and some very, um, unique design elements. And, you know, There's you know that to me is the story of that table is like here's a table for a mermaid It's you know, it has to fit a bunch of different design Concepts in a really unique way that's unique to that client. Yeah when we Um, you know, you have, especially when you have strong personalities on both, both sides, you know, it's like, I want this, I want this, like, how do you blend those together? And in that particular case, like when I finally came down to the final design on that, both of them were like, this is amazing. This is exactly, it's like, this is totally me. This is totally me. And then two separate people, and they're like, this is a hundred percent like my personality and it speaks to that. And so those are, those are the ones that are really fun. Cause it's just a win. Yeah. What a fascinating gift to make as like a wedding gift or something like that. Oh, for sure. You know, if you're a wealthy parent and you wanted to treat your kids to something cool. That would be quite a wedding gift for sure. For sure. Um, so, like, how, I guess, I want to, I want to learn how you get into this. I remember from our first conversation that you, like, kind of fell into being like a, a violin player. Repair guy or something. Yeah. So that was my official training. Um, but, but what else would you have, you know, know about like where you're at today, what you're doing, what's your, why about pivoting to that? Where is it, was it just production cabinet making was just. Too much, too annoying, um, I just want to make these really cool things. Sure. I'm an artist, dammit. Sure. Well, so I think, well, you know, art. A lot of questions, sorry. Yeah, no, that's fine. So, tiny bit of life story, I guess. Um, art has just kind of been a part of my life from the very beginning. Um, I was very, art, you know, artistic things just came easy to me. When I was a kid, I drew all the time. Um, Um, when you're a kid, you never really give credence to how good you are. And it, you know, to me, it's like, even now, it like kind of sounds a little bit arrogant and self serving to say that I was really good. But like looking back, like I found some old sketches that I did when I was, you know, like, yeah, six or eight years old. And I'm like, these were really good. Or when I was a teenager, I'm like, this is like legitimately good stuff. And, um, so art was always there. Um, I was also heavily involved in music growing up, um, strangely enough, I, you know, I ended up in playing a lot of Irish and bluegrass music, um, and so really I think what launched me into woodworking as a craft is I wanted to build a hammer dulcimer, um, cause of my, you know, background in like Celtic music. Oh yeah. So, um, it's like a keyboard you kind of look thing? Uh, no. So it's like a, it's like a trapezoid shaped instrument Okay. That you play. It's got like a bunch of strings that go across bridges. Yeah. And, and you play it with a hammer. Yeah. A little bit like a xylophone, but different Sure. Strings hammer the strings. Yeah. So it's, it's very similar in the stringing to a piano, but you play it with hammers. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and you know, it was really prominent in folk and, uh, folk and Irish music, you know, over the years. And so I bought a kit. and didn't like it because it just didn't sound good. And so I'm like, okay, I'm going to build one that's like, we're going to make one that sounds great. So I took what I learned from the first one, applied it to the second one. And I'm like, okay, this, like, this is good. This is good. And so that kind of, I did that actually as a 4 H project. And that just kind of like launched me into woodworking through 4 H and kept getting more ribbons and stuff. Yeah. Fast forward, fast forward after high school, I really was interested. I loved music. I had played music. I just, But I also loved woodworking, and so I had an opportunity here in Fort Collins to take a private apprenticeship with a violin maker who lives here. Oh, maker. I remember. Yeah, it was a violin maker. And, um, at first he, you know, had zero interest in teaching anybody, but We had some mutual friends that were just like, yeah, you know, he's a great, you know, he's a great woodworker So he agreed to do it. Um, so that kind of launched me into that and really I don't play violin, which is kind of strange Do you play a bunch of other stuff? I yeah, mainly just acoustic guitar. I've played, you know, I And Hammered Ulsamer. Yeah, and Hammered Ulsamer. I actually, so, I learned how to play the Irish bagpipes, the Ellenpipes. Oh. Um, so, you know, but I never got good at it. So, um, but to me the violin is just kind of the epitome of, music and acoustics and woodworking all put together. And so I learned, I learned how to build, um, two year apprenticeship. And in my twenties though, just didn't have the discipline to really buckle down and make a living out of it. And so I ended up working, um, at this, sorry, at a antique restoration shop, um, mainly just to make money. You know, it's like, you gotta make a living. And so over the years, um, uh, That just kept me busy enough that the violin making just kind of fell to the wayside B is antique restoration Financially good, you know, it's it's okay. I think you know as an employee It has its limits, right, you know mo I would say is most small businesses You reach a threshold where the entrepreneurial edge has to come out and you have to, you know, launch your own thing. Or, you know, you just work there and get enough raises and it's just like, okay, this is just kind of my day to day thing. Um, it was okay, but you know, it was, there was a lot of long hours. Yeah, it was just real hard work too, right? Like, you're always working and doing hard stuff. Which, I still do. Um, yeah. One of the things that was the most challenging there, though, was because you did chemical stripping, you're around, you know, a lot of really harsh chemicals. And I think the, the longevity of doing that and maintaining health is tough, for sure. Um, but just the overall work experience there, um, it wasn't long term what I wanted to do. Right, right, right. But it was building your skills toward the next steps. It was building skills, and so I mean, you couldn't be where you are today without that season. Right, exactly. And one of, what I, I would say one of the biggest things that I took away there was, um, well, two things. One was because I could carve. I was able to start doing reproduction work. So if we had, you know, well, the chair with a broken leg, well, at the simplest, at the simplest, it was like we had pieces that had come in and there'd be carvings that were missing. And so I would just easily be able to re carve carvings that were missing. Um, but it even, it even got to the point where. We had a couple clients who wanted a very specific thing, and they just couldn't find it. Um, so, my first big reproduction that I did was a big TV case for a client that they had a, a really narrow section between their fireplace and the outside wall. And they wanted this really nice Victorian piece for it. And so what I ended up making was this nine and a half foot tall Victorian, basically, armoire that had a fully carved crest on it. It, um, it looked fully Victorian, um, finished it. It was of a size that would have never been built at that time. It would have never been built. And they didn't have TVs back then. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Um, so that was what kind of launched me into furniture making, was really just taking apart furniture and then putting it back together. And when you take apart things that are falling apart, you see methods of building that don't work long term. When you're restoring things that, you know, they're 120, 150, 200 years old, and they're not coming apart. Right. You see the techniques that work. And so that was kind of where, when I started making furniture for myself, I'm like, okay, these are the techniques that I learned that are, you know, have held true, that are bomb proof. Yeah. That have held, you know, have held their strengths for a couple hundred years, a hundred years. And so you learn to build heirloom quality. By basically taking things apart, remaking, putting everything back together. Do you, uh, do you offer a warranty with these expensive pieces of luxury art furniture? Um, you know, I've never offered, um, an explicit warranty. But again, because it's relational, if anything happens, I'm a phone call away. Yeah. Have you, have you known something to come apart? I, well, so not to come apart, well, you know, I've had, um, wood, wood moves. Okay. Um, you know, and one, one specific piece that I had to deal with more recently, I built a dining room table, um, two big slabs that had glass down the center of them and one of the slabs warped and one of them stayed flat. And so what happens is your glass, you know, it just kind of pops it quite right. It just pops up on the edge. And so, um, that was three trips to Fraser. Okay. To, you know, to just get everything. And did you like, can you sand it down? Can you bend it back? No. Take the work out. What, you know, in the end what I ended up doing was just doing some steel reinforcement on the bottom to just kind of make sure the two, the two slabs stay aligned. Mm-Hmm. And then that the glass then stays where it should. But again, that's, that to me is part of the relational process where if somebody's gonna come to me and trust me to build. that I'm going to still be there to take care of that piece of furniture. Um, you know, and if, if somebody drops a pot on it and dings the top of it, you know, obviously that's not a warranty thing, but that's, I can fix it, but it's going to cost you. And typically, you know, the level of clientele that I have, they're not the type of people that will call me up and try to abuse a warrant. And so while I've never offered an express warranty, It's just been a relational thing where it's like, give me a call. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I'm going to be there because I stand by my work. I, you know, I've always sought to build at the highest quality that I can. And if for some reason, something I did didn't quite hold true, then I'm going to honor that and I'm going to come back and make sure that they're taken care of. Do you, uh, like pay attention to your industry overall? Are there like a handful of luxury art furniture makers that you're like guys work is just a little better than mine for sure Well, you know, so what at least they've got a better reputation and market presence. Sure Um, yeah, there's definitely a few people that that I look at um that are just kind of like Um, you know, there, there's somebody that, you know, one artist looking to another and saying they're better than me is a little bit, yeah, it's, it's selling than me. It's selling yourself short a little bit in the personality of who you are. There's definitely some people though that I look at and I'm like, I really love to just watch their work. Um, there's a guy named Greg class and out in Seattle who builds the river tables. So you've got the slabs with the glass down the center of them. Um, and he's really the pioneer of that whole concept. Okay. And, you know, he's, he's got pieces that have been shipped to Dubai. He just delivered one in, um, I think, I think it was in France. Um, but you know, he's shipping all over the world. Right. And sometimes personally delivering all over the world. Um, he makes absolutely beautiful pieces of furniture. And, you know, for me though, what it is, is looking at those guys and going, What have you done that's made you successful as the artist that you are? Um, not trying to Yeah, you're not trying to be them. Not trying to be them. And I think that's the, that's the danger a lot of times of people when they look at other artists and you, you kind of have this like, okay, I want to emulate them or I want to, you know, somehow assimilate something that they do into what I do. It's like, no, let's look at principles. that have made them successful and try to apply those same principles. Yeah, yeah. Learn from some of the things that maybe they did wrong, but also take some of the ideas of, of what they've done right and go, okay, does that apply to my situation? How does that apply to my situation and really make it work? That's kind of like be the best you that you can be. Not sure. Don't try to be somebody else, but you can use other people's experience. And they're right. And have the humility to learn from others and go, Okay, so like, maybe in some ways they are better than me. So what can I learn from that? Not to, not to like, put myself down, but what can I learn from that that could make me better at what I do? Sure. Also. What would you, would you call yourself a master at this point in time? Have you got 10, 000 hours or something like that, worked in the field? Um, um, I think there's a lot of people that would look at me and, and say that I'm a master. I don't know that that's ever a title that I would give to myself because I always feel like there's so much more Suggest you can't learn much. That I write. When you become the master, you stop being the student. And I feel like there's always room to be the student and always room to, to push yourself and to learn and to grow. And. So, there are a lot of skills that I have mastered, but I think there's always more mastery to be achieved. Yeah, even in those skills, there might be a little nudge you can get. Without a doubt. As well as just other things you don't even know about yet. Yeah, correct. Techniques and practices for bringing this color out or bringing the joint together. Right. You know, and as far as strengths and weaknesses, you know, there's certain things that I'm really good at, and they're like wood turning, for example. I've spent a lot of hours on the lathe, Yeah. Um, but it's not, it's not necessarily one of the things that I would say I'm great at, because there's a lot of guys that I look at and I'm like, Oh, I'm like an absolute novice at this compared to some people. Sure. But it's just something that I haven't, you know, I haven't focused. A lot of hours. Well, it's not as sophisticated of a thing in some ways, right? Oh, it can be really, it can be. Some of the most sophisticated woodwork can be turned. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, it's just not been one that I've had enough call for in my own work to spend the time to really, you know, to, to say that I've mastered that. You're more like a purple belt. Yeah, yeah, and there's, you know, I've had my fair share of pieces that I've chucked into the lathe and they've flown off and I've had to, you know, say a few curse words under my breath and move on and redo it, you know. So I'm imagining a lot of those homes up in, Like, that look down upon Aspen and Vail and Telluride and stuff. Like those are the kinds of places that would especially be picking up your furnishings or maybe not necessarily mountain style, but you're mostly furnishing people's actually residences, not their winter cabin. Um, both, um, I've, you know, I think I've, I've taken some pieces to Mountain Cabins, you know, and when you say Mountain Cabin, of course, it's a I'm talking about the 7 million, uh Exactly. It's the 7 million Mountain Cabin. Six thousand square foot. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Um, you know, it's funny because I think one of the things that's been characterized, uh, that other people looking at my work have characterized as, they're like, you do have a lot of mountain influence. Um, I never saw it. Right. And, but like stepping in and looking from the outside, it's like, okay, yeah, that's probably true. That's probably true. And so for me, one of my challenges has been, okay, let's, let's learn to design a little more coastal. Let's learn to design a little more Asian. Let's, you know, pull some of these designs that are a little bit less traditionally mountain. Um, and see if we can stretch out into that for sure. Uh, uh, the podcast that came out this morning actually is Julian one. Yeah. You know those guys. Yep. Um, and kind of the same thing, like, they got very strong, or Hooli especially, very strong Mexican cuisine influence, but also so much Mediterranean, so much Colombian, so much Americana. Sure. And, uh, you know, just finding those parts and pieces that can make you you. Well, I think what, one of the things, like, I'm from North Dakota and I moved to Fort Collins back, you know, 25 years ago or whatever. Fort Collins never really felt like the mountains to me. You know, it's like the flatlands before the mountains, kinda. Yeah, yeah. And you're, you're a townie, almost, right? Uh, From here, or? Completely, actually. I was born, I was born here in Fort Collins. That's what I thought, yeah. PVH, um, yep. So you probably don't even really realize, in some ways, how much mountain influence we have here. I think that's true. Yeah. As compared to the coast, even though we, you know, for us, it feels like, you know, we go up to Aspen or Vail and it's like, Oh, now we're in the real mountains, all these, you know, furnishings with log edges and whatnot. Yeah. Which, you know, it's, it's interesting that I think your, your furnishings in your log edges. like stop at a certain threshold, you know, financial threshold where you have, you have, you don't have those anymore, those 7 million cabins. Exactly. Yeah. No. And you know, I think what's, what's there is you start looking at design elements that have, um, not rustic, but a mountain feel with a very clean, refined edge. Um, And, you know, again, kind of going back to the design side, one of the, you know, quote, cabins, I think it was like a 4, 000 square foot cabin, you know, it was log, um, slate floor, and so one of the things that they were looking to do in that cabin was soften it. to bring a little bit more modern edge, but you know, you've got log, which is hard. You've got slate, which is hard. And so they wanted tables that kind of like just softened that and brought a little bit more organic flow to it. And so the dining table was, was round and had the glass river through it. And the bar was. You know, there's just some soft edges and some flow that took that really hard space and just like softened it. So that again, another design challenge to take, you know, something that you were not designing, you know, it's a rustic cabin. They're not putting rustic furniture in it. Yeah, yeah. We're going to soften that with a little bit more modern edge and a little bit more, you know, round instead of square and some of those little details. So, uh, I read you as somebody whose text bracket is probably closer to mine than it is to most of your clients. Um, Definitely in the, yes, completely. Um, how do you, how do you do, I also read you as somebody that doesn't really care. Like if, I'm sorry, you have a two million dollar AGI and a ten million dollar house, that doesn't really matter, what kind of piece of furniture do you want? Um, Correct. Um, you know, I think when you say that you don't care, I mean, there's definitely a, there's, there's a disconnect and a struggle sometimes. Yeah, that's, I guess that's what I'm curious about. The idea that it's like, um, you know, sometimes when you interact with a clientele that has a 10 or a 20 or a 30 million home, um, and you pull up in a 24 year old, uh, Toyota Tundra, right. Um, it's, you know, there's kind of that disconnect of like, am I, Am I in the right place? Um, Well, and they're a little bit flippant about whether they're not, they want to buy a 75, 000 table. Sure. And that may or may not feed your family for the next two months. Sure. Um, yeah. And so, you know, I think what the, the biggest challenge for me in that is, was really coming to the realization that when you talk to that level of clientele, um, My own insecurity would say to me. You know, they're somebody that's way up here, and I'm somebody that's way down here, and I have to impress them, I have to, um, somehow make them believe that I'm worthy of them spending their money with me. And the reality is, what they need is for me to come in and give them solutions. And to come in confidently and say, You know, here's what I'm hearing from you. Here's the solution that I have for you and You know, and I'm listening for more feedback, right? And oftentimes the price is not the issue it's coming in with something that they can believe in and So the that was a huge challenge for me in both the design realm and in just how I approached them Where I had to stop almost like coming to them with this like bow down and worship you because you're so much more elevated than I am. It's like, no, I have a solution to something that you need and so I'm here to, to provide that solution and to provide that, um, that piece. Is that a shift that you've made? Um, Was it there? I mean, I'm, I'm, In the midst. In the midst of that shift. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's, you know. I had, you know, I had a few clients, a few clients that were very high end that, um, they would say to me, like, that's exactly what I wanted, or, you know, it's, I'd, I'd give them a design and a price and they're like, let's go. And those are the things that for me really just built the confidence. Mm hmm. or they would say, whatever you think, we trust you. And it's like, you know, again, you're way up here and I'm way down here, but you know, I guess it's, it's kind of coming to the realization that I've been doing this between violin making, antique restoration and reproduction, and then building furniture custom. Um, it's been, 26 years now. Oh, wow. And so that, that comes with a little bit of like, okay, yes, I do actually know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Um, And you should, and I'd like to see any of your clients make a piece of furniture, anything like what you can create for them. Sure. And you know, and that's, but that's the reality is though, that's why they come to me, right. Is, you know, again, I offer a solution. And so, um, It's definitely like I, I do still sometimes have to fight back that insecurity because that insecurity sometimes still pops up where it's like, what am I even doing here? You know, walking into this home that's the value of this, this home is, you know, 100 times what the value of my home is, right? Um, and the car that they drive is, you know, a hundred times the dollar value of my truck, but, um, in the end it's that realization that we're all just humans. And so, you know, just because you're, just because your net worth is, You know, six billion dollars where my net worth is, you know, that's not much. Yeah. Um, that, well, most of those folks don't really care that much. Right. I mean, it's right. They have struggles. They get depressed sometimes. Sure. I like, uh, I listened to Joe Rogan pretty regularly and he's like, you know, billionaires as a, as a class, I know about, 20 of them and about half of them are miserable, fuckin hate their life, you know? I'm sure that other demographics don't have as much suffering as the billionaire class. Sure. I don't know. Yeah. And I don't, you know, I don't know that I could speak to that. I'd like to try it out. I don't know. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't know that I could speak to that exactly, but you know, again, I think just going through the human journey together and realizing that we all have things to offer based on our unique abilities and gifts and, um, you know, and again, always looking to other people who are maybe a little bit further down the road and, you know, a little bit further in the journey. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and learning from them. Would you, like, for you, is this a long term build? I mean, you switched kind of your focus a little bit just like a year, year and a half ago, it sounds like, uh, to some extent. Do you want to do this for the next 20 years and be a highly successful furniture artist? Yeah, I, you know, I think that's, um, that was one of the decisions that really, Or a thought process, I guess, that I had to address pretty seriously. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, doing a little bit more architectural work, doing some, um, cabinet pieces, those types of things that, you know, looking at 10, 20 years down the road, okay, you know, when I'm in my 60s, Will I be able to be, excuse me, um, will I be able to, to pick up 40 foot long beams and stick them on the ceilings of some of these houses and things like that? And it's like the answer there is even if I can, do I want to? No. Um, but building art furniture, I love doing it. You know, oftentimes one off furniture pieces are, um, you know, there's definitely some heavy pieces that I built. Um, but for the most part, it's stuff that. You know, I think it's sustainable for a while. Um, I think the biggest question that I had to answer was really on the financial side of like, can I sustain this as a one person shop? Yeah, yeah. Um, and moving into the more luxury side of that where fewer pieces at a higher dollar, Mm hmm. Um, makes that sustainability. If you were going to hire one part time or full time person, would they be a creator or just more administrative help? Is there even, there probably isn't even that much communications and stuff you're doing, right? Sure. Yeah, tell me what, um, If you did, I'm not saying you'd want to. Sure. Yeah, no, I think, um, as far as if, looking at that, And really, I think passing the craft on to the next generation, it really, it's less about the business, although the business is important, um, it's less about the, the books and the numbers, um, and more about creating the art. Yeah, yeah. And so I would definitely want to find somebody who was, a gifted creator, a gifted, uh, you know, a gifted designer and do what I can to impart what I've learned to them, to where they could pick up the craft and take it forward and hopefully take it, you know, 10 times further than what I can. You know, there are people who, you know, in certain areas have a gift that is like, you know, I may be great at this one thing, but it's like, okay, you can take that and take it to a whole new level and be better than I am. And that's, that's what I really would hope in passing on, you know, my, my experience is. You know, if I can bring somebody on who's who's got the same giftings, but can take them further. Yeah, then let's do it I think you know a lot of that, you know music generous music has always been in my family and my My second second child my she's my daughter She can sing 10 times better than I can. She picked up the guitar and in like two weeks, I'm like, you have a gift for this. So, you know, like my desire for her is it's like, okay, I will teach you everything I know, but I want you to be better, you know, and to, to take it further and to excel. That's interested in your industry. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, and I think, well, you know, one of the biggest challenges is that is in the craft industry, um, when you compare. Like a tech job versus a job that's in craft. It's a lot easier to make a lot more money in a, in a tech field. And so, you know, young people, you know, coming up wanting financial stability, wanting all of that. Um, It's, it's a more rare person that's willing to go, Okay, I'm willing to, to struggle a little bit more. I'm willing to potentially make a little bit less money. Um, because I love craft. I love design and I love art. And to let that be the driver, rather than the finance. Um, It's that that pool of people is smaller. I'm sure for sure. Well, I hope that person finds you at some point Yeah, I would love that for sure. I mean, you know, maybe it'll be one of my kids. I don't know You know, that's we'll kind of see my dream, right? We'll kind of see how that you know, how that plays out You know, my oldest is You know, he's definitely the engineer Um, so he's going to be in computers or robotics or something like that. And, um, you know, I think of, you know, going down the line to my kids. I don't, I don't see it in the cards, but maybe, you know, you never know. Like what, you know, when I was, you know, in middle school, I didn't think that I would be building custom furniture, you know, that's, um, you know, I had a lot of things that I could do and I didn't really anticipate that I would settle here. But. It's a good path. No, it seems like you're having a lot of fun. Um, I'm gonna call a short break. Party break. And, we are back. Welcome back. Thank you. How was that bathroom break for you? It was great. Really good? It was great. Um, so this is the time of the show where we uh, jump in the time machine. And go back to, uh, to Little Forest. Um, in your case, you told me you were a townie already. So let's, uh, let's go back to, like, first grade here in Fort Collins. What was your, were you, got siblings? Were you a father? Parents, entrepreneurs, teachers. Um, so, what are the circumstances? First grade, uh, lived in Wellington. Uh, a little bit north of Wellington, had 14 acres. Oh, okay. Um, so, kind of Farm ish? Yeah, farm ish. I mean, we had, we had a big garden. Um, my dad worked for Fort Collins Nursery. Really a career. I mean he was there for over 40 years. Oh, wow. So, you know, it was you know Once they moved to Fort Collins area, they did a couple they did a key did a couple other things But for the most part that was it so he grew trees. Yeah So, you know one of my wife's You know, big things. She's like, you know, anything you put your hand to can grow. I'm like, well, part of that was just growing up with a dad who, you know, grew things for sure. And, you know, so when I was a kid, like my first job was out tagging potted plants at the nursery. Um, you know, so yeah, I definitely grew up around, around trees. Um, yeah. Two siblings, one older, one younger. Okay. Um, my brother's still here in town, lives in Loveland. Okay. Um, my sister lives, uh, back in North Carolina now. Alright. Um, so Was your mom a homemaker? Yep, yep, yep. Um, she Normal back in those days, not so much anymore. Yeah, for sure. Um, so we were actually, um, starting after my second grade year, we were homeschooled. Oh, wow. My parents pulled us out of, pulled us out of, um, Eyestone Elementary. Okay. You know, set up in Wellington. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, you know, there's just some direction that the school was going that they, you know, that they weren't super thrilled with. And so they pulled us out and homeschooled us from there on up. Okay. Um, so yeah, when Can we talk about that? Sure. Is that allowed? Absolutely. Like, like, I assume it wasn't, uh, like they weren't trying to trans the kids yet or anything up in Wellington at that time? Or was there some, like, what was the direction that they didn't like? Um, Bad, bad math teachers? There was, I think, a, a lot of it was my brother had a teacher that was just really, Um, and just if kids weren't catching on to a certain thing that they were just really like, put the kids down, just really weren't, you know. And he was your older brother. That was my older brother, yeah. And so he kind of tested the waters. Yeah, yeah. And they were like, okay, we're done. For sure. Um, and I think, you know, they probably did see a little bit of the writing on the wall with some of the direction of, you know, so I grew up Christian. Okay. Um, still am. Um, and, you know, so I think just philosophically, there were some things that they didn't love that the. you know, the direction of the school. Even already than 20 years ago, 25, 30 years ago. Yeah. For sure. Definitely not to the degree that it is today. I mean, there's, it's rough, um, today, but, um, yeah, so they, and I think educationally, they just saw that homeschooling gave opportunities to excel. Especially if you have really bright kids. You know, if you got really bright kids, the public school system is just going to hold them back their whole life, probably. And so, um, you know, my brother and I did okay. Um, my sister didn't take to it quite as well. When she was in high school, she ended up, um, going to a private school for a couple years, um, just because she struggled a little bit more. But, um How did you guys socialize and stuff? stuff. Did you have sports or clubs or things like that? Yeah. So we were in 4H. Oh, sure. So we had animals and, you know, around people there, but we, you know, we were also really heavily involved with the church. And so we had the youth group and, and all of that, um, you know, and I think so, you know, back then the socialization issue was really, I think, forefront of why people had concerns with, with homeschooling. Um, one of, yeah, for sure. Now that I reflect. And it. Yeah. One of the things that, that really, I think, came out pretty quickly as people really started to, to look at socialization in homeschooled kids is that when you go to a public school, your primary socialization is with your peers. With a bunch of other little punk asses that don't know how to socialize with adults. And where in the homeschool, You know, and we had a homeschool group that we would do, um, meetings with. Sure, yeah. You know, some of them were just monthly. But, you know, there were a lot where, like, if you had, you know, a bunch of kids where you had one mom that was a really good math teacher. Right. And you had other parents that struggled to teach math. So you'd get together and you'd have like a math co op, and so you'd have other kids. Um, but what really became clear very quickly, I think, within the homeschool movement is that the kids who are homeschooled were actually better socialized because they could, you know, they hung out with younger people, they hung out with older people, and we're all, you know, oftentimes, significantly more respectful towards adults. They knew how to interact with adults. And well, and 4 H is great for that too, honestly. I mean, if you look at a 4 H kid in just about any county fair around the country, that they're totally comfortable showing off their sewing thing, their woodworking or their sheep to the judges and stuff. And that freaks a lot of kids out at that age. Yeah. It, you know, and I think that it's something that's been lost with the younger generations. I think, um, where, you know, you've got such a Uh, a closed group of, you know, your peers that it's like, you can socialize there, but beyond that, you know, and I think too, there's a culture of offense too, that's taken root in the last decade where it's like, you can't hardly say anything without somebody else getting offended. And so, you know, that, that definitely brings its own challenges too. But um, but yeah. So you didn't feel like you struggled at all? No, not at all. Not at all. Do you, what church were you, was your family a part of? Um, we've, yeah. So we've been, uh, a couple of churches, um, over the years. When I was growing up, it was a church Christ, Rocky Mountain Church Christ. They don't, they don't exist anymore as far as I know. Um, you know, around high school, um, that church had just kind of collapsed. And so we became a part of Dayspring Christian Church. They're over in, um, in the Windsor area. It's kind of a non denominational. Yeah. Non denominational Christian church. Curious about it. It seems like that element of the church maybe is the most homeschool y and stuff. Yeah, I don't know. It really just kind of depends. Um, you know, now we're involved. Um, our home church now is Vintage City Church right on Prospect there. Yeah, yeah. Um, You know, and it's, it's interesting because it's definitely a little bit more charismatic, if you want to say that, than the church that I grew up, I mean, grew up very, very strict traditional, um, very conservative, um, yeah, definitely no dancing. Well, Church of Christ, there's no instruments, so, you know, I mean, very, like, very conservative in that, in that realm. Um, so yeah, definitely like vintage is, is not that. I mean, we, we have dancing, you know, there's flags every now and again. So, um, yeah, they've been there a few times and it's, you know, I think it's, it's a little bit louder than they're used to, um, a little bit more produced than they're used to. Um, but we have a lot of homeschool families where they just have, you know, their value is they want to be the person. the primary educators. And you know, when it comes to raising the kids, do you, do you send your kids to the state or do you, do you take that role seriously where it's like, I'm the one who's going to raise my kid. And, um, yeah, I think that's honorable. Honestly, my wife and I don't have any kids, but if we did, I think I'd probably have gone that route myself. Yeah. As long as she was willing to do most of it. Sure. Yeah. And you know, we even, it's a big sacrifice, right? It is. And we had, you know, honestly with our kids, we had looked at homeschooling them, Um, at our oldest, when he was, you know, kindergarten, first grade, we had started the process. We were, we were into it, um, because we weren't thrilled with the options for public school. But both of us also worked and had the career. And so it was, it was definitely a challenge. And I think, you know, one of the things when it comes to homeschooling, like, you need, you need to be able to organize really strongly. And, you know, I think there were just some struggles that we had, uh, we had the opportunity early on, um, partway into the home, in, in first grade, um, to get into Ridgeview. Um, here in town, um, kind of a, you know, a funny backstory. I worked at Barnes and Noble for a little bit of time, just kind of in the process of like figuring things out. Between the violins and the furniture restoration. Yeah, exactly. And, um, you know, we'd always get the teachers from Ridgeview coming in and they were, you know, they were picking up these classics and I'm like, you know, is this for high school? And they're like, no, this is our third grade. Like what the heck? And so, you know, they're, they're teaching, you know, critical thinking. They're teaching, you know, they, they teach in a Socratic method where it's like Anne of Green Gables is in there at fourth grade. Right, right. No, it's like, and they're reading Homer and they're, you know, they're reading a lot of these and it's, it, so it impressed me a lot. And so when we have, you know, when it's like we have kids and it's just like, okay, we're going to put in the lottery. And, um, they, you know, at first didn't get picked and then they had somebody leave. And so I think like it was about a month or two into Emerson, my oldest, his first grade year that we got the call. Somebody left and his name would come up in the lottery. So we got him in there and we've been really happy. And I think, you know, for me, one of the biggest compromise almost, yeah, between, Not being a, uh, uh, intellectual enough and having, you know, so yeah, exactly. And, and really, I think more than, than intellectual enough is just the time. Because it's like, in order to do it right, I really, you know, I think one parent does just have to stay home. Um, at least, you know, when they're younger, I mean, and, That's pretty tough. And you know, and you know, the economy here and the cost of living here, it's, you know, it's a challenge. You better have a doctor or a lawyer in your household if you're going to just do it on one income. Or just live really, really simply. Yeah. Yeah, those are the choices. So, so you kind of caught us up like at the end of high school when you kind of jumped into this apprenticeship thing. Did you, did you go to college at all? Did you contemplate that? Nope. Um, I had, you know, definitely thought about it, but there was never anything in college that to me was like, this is something that I'm passionate about that I want to pursue. So, um, yeah, jumped into the violin making apprenticeship, um, came out of that with just kind of a, I'm going to try to build this as a business. Yeah. Um, didn't have the discipline at 20 to do that. Oh, so you actually tried to start your own dial in business? No, I was, I was starting to build. You could have taken on his business eventually or something. Um, yeah, probably not that. I don't think he was really, you know, into that kind of thing. Um, but he did tell me going in, he's like, you know, really, you're going to be, you're going to be working at this for 10 years to really establish a name. And, um, you know, well, You were like, yeah. 10 years. Well, in the reality is, well, and when it really comes down to it, it's like looking back at when I started my business doing this, you know, it took 10 years to really get established and to really have a name in this. That's just entrepreneurship. Yeah. But at 20, I just didn't have that, that vision and that discipline. So, um, yeah, so it was a couple of years, just kind of, you know, I worked at Barnes and Noble, worked at the library, just kind of did some, you know, I've got a job, I'm trying to pursue this violin thing, but not really like taking it as seriously as I could have. And that's when I landed in the Did you meet your wife along the way somewhere there? Um, so that was during the violin making years. Oh, it was? Okay. Yep. Um, or no, excuse me, not the violin making, the, uh, the anticarceration years. Oh, later. Yep. Okay. Yep. Gotcha. So, um, Um, yeah, we met online. Okay. Um, she was living, you know The early days of Match. com or something? Yeah. E Harmony, probably. Christian Café. You know, it was one of the, kind of like E Harmony, but the Christian version of it. Um, yeah, so, and it was funny, because I always thought, you know, like, online dating things, I'm like, this is so lame. But, you know, at the same time, I'm like, I kept getting advertisements from them, or emails from them, and I'm just like, whatever, I'll just, you know, I'll check it out. Put an account up there. Um, yeah. And so it was something that when we, when we first met, it was just really comfortable and really natural. And we just kind of hit it off. And, um, I don't know that, you know, either of us took it super seriously at first because it was just like, you know, we're just friends, we're just hanging out, but then it was just so natural that it was like, okay, we're just kind of like, I guess we're moving, I guess, recording all of a sudden we're just, we're, you know, and, and. You know, not through trying, but just by happenstance, we're like, we're spending like every afternoon together, and we really like it. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it just kind of fell together pretty naturally, and, um Circuit me a little bit. What is this? This is like So this was 2002. Okay. Um, and then we were married in 2004. And, um, yeah, bought a house, did the whole like, we're gonna jump into home ownership, and yeah, 20 years ago, this past September. Oh, awesome. So you've just been kind of navigating that career in the meantime. Yeah. Um, I feel like we could probably, uh, hit some of the closing segments now. We always talk about faith, family, politics. Sure. We've already talked about family some. You want to start there? We've talked about faith a little bit too. Sure. Yeah. I mean, um, family. So, I've got four kids. 16, 14, 13, and just actually today is his birthday, just turned 9. Happy birthday. My youngest one, Oakley, happy birthday. Um, yeah, so we've got the engineer, we've got the artist. Um, 13 year old, she's Um, incredibly caring, incredibly observant, and I'm not really sure where she's gonna go career wise yet. Okay. Okay. Um, and then our youngest is definitely the one, like, he's the first one in the family that's like, really into sports. Oh. And throws the football around all the time. I love it. And outsprung from somewhere, I don't know. Not, not from me. No, probably from my wife. I mean, my wife was definitely more, you know, she's the one who watched football and, and, you know, into that kind of stuff. You know, for sure, for sure. Um, were those your one word descriptions already that you came through or no? Do you remember that part of our show? Um, we, we, we usually do a, a one word description of your children. Okay. Would you like to attempt that and, and give them a name, those ages. I think he's from Emerson. By the way, do you know the significance of Emerson? Um, In my college years, I, I, I used that name. Occasionally. Um, and it was code for like, Emerson, nice boobs. Cause you didn't want to get called out. So you'd be like, Hey, Emerson. Right over there. Yep. Oh, anyway, I digress. Nope. Did not, did not have that reference there. Don't share that with him. It's all good. Although he's probably going to listen to this now. It's all good. He's going to be like, Dad. Sure. Um, so yeah, Emerson's definitely, he's, he's the engineer. Um, very physics minded, very So he's like, probably like a junior in high school? He's a junior, yep, he's a junior. Um, very, very math minded, which he did not get from me. Um, Sawyer is my artist. She is, yeah, she's 14, so she's a freshman this year. Um, Oh, do you have a one word description for Emerson? Like engineer is yeah, definitely. I think engineer would be the most precise. Yeah. Yeah, just one. Yeah, very very intellectual Yes, so if you know if we're talking engineer for number one for Emerson for Sawyer, she's the artist. Yeah She paints she sings she's learning to play guitar. She's the one that could play guitar right away. Yeah. She sits down at the piano and doesn't know a lick of music, but she'll just like figure out a song by, you know, just figure it out. And she's, you know, she's kind of played around the sheet music a little bit, but, um, Colby is my helper. She's the one who's like, I've got to go clean up the garden. She's like, I'll come help. Yeah, I love it. Um, and so my, my 14 year old Sawyer, she's always the one accusing me of like, Colby's your favorite because she always does this and she always, I'm like. You can help in the garden too. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, that's, that's one of the, that's one of the challenges there. Just like, yes, just because Colby, you know, is the helpful one doesn't mean you don't have really great qualities too. That's just a quality that, you know, comes out and causes conflict because, you know, she'll come out and help and, you know. Apparently your envy over her helpfulness is what's causing the problem here. Well, and she, I think she's the one who's most like me from the standpoint of like organization and structure. She likes a clean house, she's got everything organized, you know, and like, she, One night, my wife and I were out and the kids were home and she, like, get home and the, uh, the dishes are all done and everything is clean and perfect. And um, she's just like, yeah, I just got bored. So, you know, I cleaned everything up. I'm like, yeah, not, uh, not normal for the, uh, 13 year old to just do that, but I dig it. And then what was the last one was nine. Yeah. So Oakley is nine. Um, one word description of Oakley. Rambunctious. Oh, I'll serve him. Well, yeah, boy. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, you know, coming off of, you know, our first boy Emerson, you know, being very like intellectual, very math, science oriented. He's, he's not the one to be very expressive. Yeah, very quiet, very reserved, usually. And so Oakley, you know, running around with transformers and dinosaurs. Yeah. Um, yeah, definitely the more physical and, and, uh, you know, he's a redhead, so definitely the spirits and the emotions run high as well. So, um, yeah, um, tell me about, uh, I mean, you told me a little bit about the, Romance. What's your wife's name, by the way? Billie. Billie? Yep. Was it I. E. or? I. E. Okay. Um, like, ultimately, aside from just kind of it being really easy, were there favorite things about her that made you want to spend time with her that second day and that third afternoon and that fourth afternoon? Um. I'm sure there's several. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things. I think the thing that But the early on. Think back to the early on. Yeah, that's where I'm trying to go. Um. Mm hmm. I think our personalities, our values, what was really important to us just aligned really, really well. And so there was just no, like, well you want this and I don't want that. And, um, just very, and I think in some ways too, it was the things about our personalities that are opposite. That really, um, she's definitely the more, like, fun loving, a little bit more boisterous, and I'm definitely not. Um, and so some of those things just complemented, and you know, in a lot of ways she brought out some of the good things in me that, that never, you know, came to light otherwise. Yeah, yeah. Um. I dig it. So how, why did, why did, you were boring, why did she, uh, keep hanging out with you? I don't know. You've never asked? Yeah, you know, it's, um, she, she came to Colorado to find her cowboy and it did not fit that bill. She found her artist instead. Yeah, something like that. You know, although there was a, you know, a period in my life where I had a cowboy hat and I wore a duster and I had a horse and. Oh, okay. Yeah, so I mean, that, that's definitely, you know, It's there, but yeah, by the time, by the time we met, you know, a lot of that had kind of taken a back burner. Well, and honestly, if you're really looking for a cowboy, Colorado is probably not the best place to go. No, you got to go, got to go a few miles north. Montana, Texas maybe is a good spot. Yeah, well, probably some in Wyoming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, the percentage of of Cowboy is really high in Wyoming, probably. Yeah, for sure. Um, let's talk about faith a little more. Okay. Um, so you've kind of moved toward, I guess, what would be a more charismatic, a little more fun loving church experience from what you grew up in. Is that an intention or just? Met the pastor there, thought it was cool, or like, how did you, uh Well, so, kind of a, kind of a strange story there. Um, The pastor at the, at Vintage, um, Greg Sanders, he was, he was a worship pastor at, uh, Good Shepherd in Loveland for a long time. And at the time, my brother was actually a Good Shepherd and was playing with him. And my brother had kind of like said, Hey, why don't you come play music with me every now and again? And so I, you know, I'd met him. Um, when it came to coming to vintage though, my brother at the time, he had, he had come over and, and was attending vintage when it was just starting. He's like, yeah, you should come to vintage. You should come to vintage. And I'm like, I'm not following you to vintage. Like, I just like, I'm not going to, you know, not going to be that little brother, not going to follow my big brother around. Um, But, my wife and I, um, kind of walked through a point in our marriage where, um, we were just kind of struggling. And, um, the church, the church that we were at wasn't, wasn't quite supporting us in the way that we needed. And, um, so we were just kind of looking, kind of looking and, you know, one, one Sunday morning, Billy had a, she had a work thing that she had a training that she had to go to. And so I'm just like, okay, fine, whatever. I'll just go to vintage. Yep. And, you know, at the time, Everybody asks me, where's Julie when I go to my regular church. Yep. Um, and so I went in and it was just one of those things where it was like, Uh, So growing up really conservative, um, very high emphasis on theology, very high emphasis on biblical doctrine, which I think is 100 percent important. Um, where it was lacking was in life. And yeah, I walked in there and it was very, This is how you do it, but there wasn't a lot of Yeah, and so when he walked into Vintage, it was the first time that I had ever felt this, like, tangible presence. Where it was like, no, God's here. And it was something that I didn't realize until that moment that I'd been so hungry for. Hmm. And so literally I walked in and I'm like, okay, Billy, come back next week. If you really don't like this. Great. But I'm like, in my mind, this is the place that's already done. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. So she came and she's like, this is it. So we've been there ever since. The music is so much better. Well, and at that point it, I mean, it was a little bit better, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't glorious. It wasn't glorious. You know, we've come along and it's fun too, because like, I've actually, I've So I never got back involved with music from the stage from playing, which I had been at our previous church. Um, but I jumped in my brother, he was, uh, mixing at the time. And so he's just like, why don't you come, you know, learn and mix on occasion. And so, yeah. So, you know, that got to a point where I was trading back and forth with him. We'd mix off and on every week and, you know, it was like mixing a band with drums in a little elementary school gym and it was a nightmare. And, you know, now we've got a bigger space and we've got a, you know, a full pro sound rig. And, um, so now I'm doing that every week. So I mix front of house every week there. And, um, it's very musical and I love doing it. And it's, you know, it's, it's rewarding in its own, in its own sense. We moved out of the family section, but hadn't really talked about your brother, but it feels like we should touch on that It feels like an important relationship in your life. He's here local and stuff. Yeah. Yeah Family kids to two kids. Um, his oldest is actually up at South Dakota School of Mines. Oh, his youngest is graduating this year Okay. Um, just his two kids. So his are a little older than yours? Yeah, a little older than ours. Yeah, so he's definitely in that phase of life where he's kind of moving out of, you know, the kids stage. Yeah, yeah. Into just them. Um, yeah, they actually, so they were a part of Vintage too for quite a few years and eventually left and went, uh, Greek Orthodox, which was kind of an interesting shift. Well, I've been listening to St. Spyridon. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, for a while. Uh, quite a bit. And actually, yeah, that's where they're at. One of my best friends, uh, girlfriends, uh, my wife's best girlfriend, her son is dating the daughter of the pastor. Oh, really? St. Spyron Don. Nice. And I'm, I'm super excited cause I listened to it back in the COVID days when there was just a lot of extra time on your hands and, and, uh, I've been intrigued. Sure. And actually met a couple of folks that used to go to our church that have moved down there too. Yeah. Well, and I think one of the things that, that, that my brother connected to and I think is really fascinating is just how closely they tie their roots to the early apostolic church. Barely, barely changed. Um, and, um, There's a, there's a, there's a richness in the history there. Yeah. That I think a lot of more modern churches that are popular and they've gone, they've gone cultural, lose that rich history. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I would tend to agree that, uh, our pastor would call it the kind of Jesus is my boyfriend churches. Sure. And, you know, and it's kind of the opposite when you go to the Orthodox kind of style, right? Like, this is, no, this is like 2, 000 years of, you know, Precedent. Yeah, and there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of the liturgy there that that to me is very foreign But at the same time you step back and you look at it. It's like oh, there's a lot of there's a lot of rich History here. Yeah that I can appreciate, you know, I don't think for me personally It's like that's not the direction that I have interested in going. Yeah, but there's a lot of you know, so I think Circling back to my brother though One of the things that was interesting when they made that move is they cut like a lot of their family and friends circles kind of shifted that way. And so it's just kind of, we don't see them as often anymore. And, um, yeah, so it, it's definitely a bummer for sure. I miss, I miss seeing them. Um, You know, they have a busy life. We have a busy life. And sometimes those things just get in the way. And, um, Yeah, make them a nice table one of these days. We have you over more. Right. Maybe, uh, maybe it's on me to make the first move to, uh, to kind of make that a priority. Some initiation, yeah. Yeah, to get together a little bit more often. Yeah, that's fair. Um, Big election tomorrow. Yes, there is. Um, what's your prediction? My prediction, I think, I think it's going to go towards Trump. Why? Um, I think there's just a lot of dissatisfaction in, um, middle to lower class especially with just cost of living and inability to, to really thrive. Um, I think you've seen a lot of people just like that. We're getting by that are not getting by. Yeah I think the border crisis is Pretty huge and there's a lot of a lot of dissatisfaction. I think in in Lower income areas where it's like the government is putting so much money towards illegals that there it's not going to them anymore and that's How can you prioritize? people who don't Don't come here legally over people who are struggling that are part of your society. Yeah things like that. Yeah. Yeah, so I think Leaving aside the potential of fraud. I think it's gonna go to Trump personal. Oh, yeah I think leaving aside the potential of fraud. I think you'd get 300 Yeah, and you know an unpopular opinion, yeah, well when it's difficult when you have Like California that just made it illegal to ask for id When you vote, what the hell is this? Like, that's It's looney bins, isn't it? Yeah. I mean that's, you know, even people, I, I have, I have a friend who came here from Brazil and it's like, he's like, that's one of the hallmarks of citizenship. You come here, you do the work, you become a citizen and you vote. The thing that you get is the ability to vote and the ability to drive. the election. And so that's, I hope he voted twice for Trump. Yeah, went in once with his ID and went in once without his ID. No, no. Um, you know, and I think I've never voted for Trump yet. This is my first time, but I just, I marked the ballot for Trump this time just cause two reasons for me. Well, Two main reasons. But yeah, one, what you were talking about, just the current conditions and the mismanagement of the economy and the relations and the demonizing. All that, that's big one for me. Number two is, um, the coalition he's built around him. Absolutely. You know, I was actually a fan of Bobby Kennedy. I was, I've always been a fan of, uh, Tulsi and, uh, You know, Musk is putting his balls in the line with this endeavor and his money. Well, and I think one of the coolest things about that coalition is just the various aspects that can be brought together to really align with a wider population of America. So I think everybody With any common sense should be totally thrilled with musk and his idea of coming in with the government with the accountability and just see an Efficiency and just a stream line. I've been Ron Paul over the weekend. It was like hey, here's the the pod father Yeah, the government efficiency movement. Yeah Bobby Kennedy and his focus on health Health and, and the debt. And the debt, yeah. I mean, when you really talk about the debt as, as taking over, you know, the majority of our GDP in the country going to paying the interest on the debt, that's, that's unsustainable. And you know, that's, that's economic collapse. Yeah, yeah. And so if you don't fix that, there is no future. Yeah. Um, and, and, yeah. You know, so yeah, I mean, we were, I mean, I was really impressed with, with Kennedy as well, and my wife, you know, she's with his children's health defense, um, you know, she's been a fan of, of Kennedy for a long time, um, and so I think, um, you know, I have a lot of respect for Tulsi Gabbard. Um, you know, there's just a lot of these people that have come around him and if he can pull these people together and actually Stick with what he's promised of making these people part of his team Um if they can get um, kelly and casey means in there on the health side. I mean, there's just some incredible people who have the ability to just foundationally bring the country back to something great. Totally. And I know, you know, MAGA has been demonized, but it's like, make America great, make America healthy, make, make us responsible. You know, just all of the things that like, cut the you know Make America fiscally responsible. Fiscally responsible. And if for no other I don't think Trump did that well his first term. No. At all. No. I mean he, he just kind of fell in line with but he, you know, new to Washington, surrounded himself with people who Well, what's crazy to me, it. This is, I shared this with my exchange student. He was like, why should I care about the presidential election in America or whatever? And I was like, well, like since Trump's presidency, when the war machine and the pharma machine and some other machines realized that Trump wasn't as influenceable as they wished. They've captured now the Democrats are celebrating the endorsement of Liz Cheney. Oh, I know And the war machine now has captured the Democratic Party. What a and the Democrats don't realize this. What a reversal though Huge. I mean, just the fact that the Democratic Party embraces Dick and Liz Cheney is, when they were, they were Satan incarnate. I know. You know, that, that, that's an, that's an indicator and, you know, my, you know, I just hope whatever happens that we can root out some of the corruption and yeah, it's, you know, it's so funny too, because it's like every election is like, this is the most important election. It's. I don't know that this is the most important election, but I think this is, this has, what happens after this one is gonna pivotally define. The direction of America for a long time. I agree with that. And it could like the Democratic Party could largely crumble into something different Not largely but like it's gonna have a new it's gonna have an identity crisis in a major way I think it does have an identity crisis already true. I think with just a pivot to war and the pivot towards Right non liberty. Yeah blocking speech. Yeah. Yeah all those things for sure Yeah. No, I mean, that's what the core principles of liberalism, classic liberalism, right? And that's classic liberalism is really just gone from the democratic. Yeah. It's alive and well in my brain. Right. You know, and it's become part of the platform that's forming around Tulsi and Bobby and Trumpy. Yeah. So we'll see how it goes. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. For sure. Um. I think that brings us up to the loco experience. Okay. The, uh, craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners. Yeah, that's the, you know, honestly, in, in thinking through this, it's like, that was probably the toughest one. Do you want to smoke a joint in this podcast live right now? There you go. There you go. That would be right up there. Um, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's so funny. Cause I, you know, thinking back to it, it's like, You know, my dad really like raising us instilled like responsibility and diligence and, you know, all of this kind of things. And, you know, it's like, when I think back, I'm like, I kind of like, in some ways have lived a really boring life. Like, I'm like, has there been anything that's crazy or, um, you know, it was tough, like thinking about it. thinking through um, crazy things that have happened or crazy things that I've done. Um, yeah, if you ask my wife, she's like, probably not. You're pretty flat and boring. What's the craziest thing your wife has done? Oh, move here. Marry me. I don't know. Um, Yeah, she, no, she moved here when, when, uh, a friend of hers was just like, Hey, let's move to, you know, I'm moving to Colorado, I think you should come with, and it was literally like that much thought. It was just like, okay, um, no, you know, it, that's, that's a tough one. I don't know that there's, you know, I haven't necessarily lived that much of a crazy, of a crazy life. That's okay. That's okay. Um, let's see, I should give you another, uh, challenging question instead. What's your most embarrassing moment? No, you don't have to answer that. Um, let me count the ways, um, there have been a lot, but that come to mind right now, I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna let you off the hook on that one too. Um, Forrest, why don't you tell the people where to find themselves some, uh, luxury furniture art? Luxury furniture art? Um, are you thinking phone number? Website? No, website, probably. Yeah, website. Yeah, um, so, website is Phone number's probably on there. Right, yeah, it is. Um, yeah, website is just forrestkramer. com. So, F O R R E S T C R A M E R dot com. Very cool. Um, just my name. Um, Instagram is just at forrest. kramer. Okay, you got some pretty pictures up there. I'm got a few got a few. Yeah, I got to work on that do more Yeah, definitely got to do more. Yeah, social media is not not one of my strong suits. Yeah It doesn't surprise me. Oh, do you know about Jonathan Pagel Pagel? Names not right now. He's actually He's pals with like Jordan Peterson Okay, some of those folks in that space, but he was he's an icon carver from the Greek Orthodox. Oh, really? You And he's got a, um, a really amazing podcast called The Symbolic World. Okay. Um, and uh, it's all, mostly about the symbolism of the world. Old Testament stories. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think given your basis in art and stuff, I honestly think that you might find a lot of inspiration potentially, even for some of your pieces or thought work with, with his, with his work. Well, and that's, you know, bring Jordan Peterson. You know, I listened to a lot of his podcasts when I work and I love sleep to them, you know, one of the things that, that I love about him is just his, It's just his ability to grab symbolism out of things and draw, you know, symbolism and psychology together. It's just really fascinating. Yeah. No, I agree. And that's why he's so close with Jonathan is Jonathan's like that, but a couple of notches over on the symbolism side. Sure. So, yeah. And I imagine I've probably heard some of his, some of his podcasts. I just haven't like the name, you know, I'll, uh, I'll show you the one that I'm talking about here. Sure. Off the air. Sure. Well, thanks a bunch. I appreciate your being here. Thank you. And, uh, You know, I'll look for my, uh, new coffee table to be delivered here when you're ready. Sounds like, sounds like a plan. Thanks, Forrest. Thank you, Garrett. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Loco Experience podcast produced and sponsored by Loco Think Tank. This is your producer Alma Arellano. Check out our website at thelocoexperience. com to find all of our episodes, nominate future guests, or leave us a message. You can also find us on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at The Loco Experience. To support the show, please subscribe and share it with your favorite people. Until next time, stay loco.
