The LoCo Experience
The LoCo Experience is produced and sponsored by LoCo Think Tank - and sometimes others! Our mission is to uncover as much business education as possible while getting to know the founders and leaders of amazing organizations. You'll feel like you really know our guests after each episode, and if we're doing our job well, you'll learn business principles and tips from them along the journey and be both inspired and entertained. Episodes feature a range of local and regional business and community leaders as guests in a conversational interview format. The more interesting the journey, the better the experience!
The LoCo Experience
EXPERIENCE 195 | Exit Strategies and Growth Capital for the Lower Middle Market - A Conversation with Aaron McCambridge, Managing Director of Citadel Advisory Group in Fort Collins
I’ve known Aaron McCambridge for perhaps 15 years, as he’s been an occasional visitor to my Rotary Club, where his father is a longtime member. I’ve known about Citadel Advisory Group for even longer, as they were a client of the bank I worked at the last stop in my career, going back to 2007. When I left the bank in 2013, Aaron had only recently entered the industry in what was effectively an intern/analyst role, and now shares leadership with fellow Managing Partner, Matt Thomas.
Citadel works in what is effectively a seller-side representative role for lower middle market privately held companies, helping them find an exit or a growth capital partner, depending on circumstances and the owner’s desires for the company. These might include strategic acquisitions, minority capital injections, or 100% private equity or family office buyouts. Citadel gets paid on the back end of each transaction - and only if it is completed. For me, this conversation is a fun look behind the curtain of an industry I’ve only brushed against in my career, and listeners will learn a lot while I satisfy my curiosity about the kinds of deals that Aaron and his partners have seen in the marketplace.
Aaron’s journey is an inspiring one, in that he marched through several years of challenge before starting from scratch in a new career. He’d had a very successful career in mortgage, and then wholesale mortgage before the financial crisis evaporated those opportunities, and then founded and floundered in his own commercial capital venture before checking in with Citadel about an entry-level job.
At the core, Aaron is something of a hybrid between business analyst, life and business coach, and equity industry expert, and he does a great job of storytelling while keeping his clients anonymous. I learned a lot, and you will too - so please tune in and enjoy my conversation with Aaron McCambridge, Managing Partner of Citadel Advisory Group.
The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/
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Music By: A Brother's Fountain
Welcome back to the local experience podcast. My guest today is Aaron McCambridge, and Aaron is the Managing Director down at Citadel Advisory Group. Yes, what's that mean? Thank you for having what's what's Citadel. Citadel is. I know a little bit, but yeah, yeah. Um, so we are a, um, MNA advisory firm mergers and acquisitions, um, focusing kind of in the, what we deem as the lower middle market, um, which client side. On the client side. Yeah. So size wise revenue kind of up to a hundred million. And I would say most, most of our experience, we probably stop in the 80 range. I mean, historically, um, 80 million in terms of size. Um, and down as low as we've done deals. I mean, typically, Um, you know, our target market is between 10 and a hundred, right? Okay. Revenue wise. But, um, typically, you know, we'll get referrals in, that'll be smaller than that, that we'll take on a case by case basis. Try to help them become that 10 to whatever. Well, either that, like from a consulting standpoint or, um, if they want to help, you know, get to that point or, um, they may need help in other areas. So we'll do that on occasion. Um, Um, but from a, from a transaction side of things, it's the buyer pool is just completely different for those that fall on the lower end. Um, but we get a lot of potential consulting leading to a later transaction that, that happens. Absolutely. So what's the value proposition? Like, is it just understanding your way around that world and helping to be able to position your clients for that? Capital injection and what do you do with it kind of stuff or whatever. Yeah. How to get the right value out of it. Yeah. So, um, there are a lot of misnomers out there, right? About the, just the process, right? The process itself is. It can be challenging, it can take a long time, it's very emotional, um, outside of kind of the technical nature of the things that you do along the way, right? Yeah, complicated financial transactions. Analyzing financial stuff and, yeah. Um, you know, legal things, which we, you know, always bring in outside counsel for transaction work, but, um, you know, the process is, is a complicated one, it's not, uh, there's no, a lot of guide for that. Yeah, kind of a, absolutely. And so I would say. Like one of the things that I really enjoy doing is managing that process. One of the things I really, I don't enjoy doing is the business development side of things. Like I'm not a, I've never been a sales guy, right. Like out there. So, um, most of our business comes in via referral. It's a small industry, I'm sure, right? Mostly Colorado clients, or do you work across the country? Um, so we work across the country. Um, currently, um, most are in Colorado. Yeah. Um, Um, but we're also a fairly small firm, right? So I mean, there's only three of us, really, um, one that's, um, kind of helping us with the BD side of things. And then myself and Matt, who's my, um, business partner. And, um, so we can only juggle so many transactions at once, right? So I'd say at any given time, we'll never have more than five or six, right? Kind of on the high end. It's a little bit like being a. Banker in my space. I mean, what would you be called an investment banker? Well, so not really because you're not brokering anything specifically. Well, and we are, they changed the rules a number of years ago. So, so if you were to look at Citadel, when I joined 13 years ago, it was, um, Citadel advisory group, investment bankers. And the difference really between investment bankers and business brokerage was Um, size of deal, right. And complexity, right. And so, um, and, and the licensing piece, right, right now, they changed the rule a number of years ago to where, um, we're not required to have securities licenses. Um, you know, doing a transaction and we weren't required actually prior. I'm going to get into the weeds, but um, depending on the type of transaction, um, you were required to have a securities license in a stock sale, for instance, whereas you weren't required in an asset sale and 90 plus percent of the deals are assets. Right, right. Yeah. Okay. So you've kind of, you're doing the same general stuff. Yeah, absolutely. It's the same. I mean, it's the same, it's the same process. It's the same world. It's everything is the same. It's just some of the regulations, um, that changed, uh, allowed us to do deals up to 25 million of earnings, um, without a licensing requirement. And they open that up to everybody. Um, so yeah, those under a hundred million dollar revenue companies, like it takes a really good one to make more than 25 million earnings. Exactly. Exactly. So that kind of opens up that space. And then the difference there, like on the investment banking side, and there are a number of different areas of investment banking, but, um, They're, we're not raising capital specifically, right? So, um, we're not out there promoting, uh, yeah, exactly. Bringing investors in for a big talk where your founders are going to raise some sourcing funding. And, and I mean, we'll source, um, we'll connect, you know, debt players, um, or even a private equity group. You could make an introduction. And that's, you know, that's actually more often than not what happens, whether it's private equity or a strategic acquirer or a family office, another type of financial buyer, um, that is the buyer community that we deal with most often. And, but you're a, you're a seller's agent basically, functionally, at least. Yeah, we, we traditionally work at sell side. So. You as the business owner are looking to exit your business, or bring in growth capital, or bring in a partner, or what have you. Um, then we'll help facilitate that transaction, we'll help you on the front end, kind of, Okay, Kurt, what are you looking to do? What are your goals? Which is probably more like a per hour consultancy. No, that's, that's part of the, that's part of our service. Oh, you just get all that free service. We do. Oh, right. I could just check you out for a test drive and be like pulling your chain the whole time. Well, could, and it's happened. Um, which, uh, you know, you learn those lessons along the way, but, um, no, we're, I mean, we're big believers and always have been, you know, you do right by people and it comes back to you. So it's, um, yeah. It's really one of those, we want, it's really important to, to kind of set it up properly. Yeah. Right? On the front end. There's a lot of risk of conflict of interest. And do you get like a, Thing on the back end. Yeah. So we get paid on a success fee basis. Oh, wow. So when the transaction is done, so we help a seller, you know, sell his or her company and you know, a year or two later is when we get paid. Oh wow. So we're doing all this front end work with nothing. So we're, you know, kind of putting it all out there for, for the benefit of, of both, you know, the client and, and us in the end. And like, what's the range? Uh, is it like house, 3%, 5%, 8%, 15 range of fee. Yeah. I'm just curious about the revenue model and it's probably not in my business. No, it's fine. It, it varies, but, but traditionally we've charged 4 percent on the first 25 million and 2 percent thereafter. So, um, now that may. Increase as deals get smaller because believe it or not. And you may remember this as a banker, right? Like smaller deals are harder to get done. It's way harder to do 10 hundred thousand dollar loans than it is to do one, 1 million loan. That's exactly right. So fair enough. Okay. Um, but that's traditionally how it, how it's structured. And then, um, you know, from a timing standpoint, it's, um, depending on the, the client, why do you get paid a year or two after, well, that's how long a deal takes. Oh, right. But after the deal is done, you get paid pretty much right away at the closing. We would write, but you weren't for free for a year and a half or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. I mean, we've closed deals, the shortest deal we ever did. And it was kind of right after I started at the firm. Um, and granted everything was teed up on both sides, but it closed in 45 days, which is unheard of. And that will never happen again, I don't think. But, um, that was kind of stars aligning and everybody was kind of teed up and it was just a matter of like getting legal squared away. Yeah. Um, And the longest deal that we were ever a part of that closed, um, was five and a half years. So, which is a long time to, you know, I'm guessing it was something that started conversation before COVID and then, Oh, this was 10 years ago. Years and years ago. Okay. Cause the industry changed so dramatically during that time. It was like, well, we want to make a deal, but. We have no idea if there's going to be a marketplace for this. Well, yeah. And that's, I mean, that's the case always, right. It depends on the industry. It depends on the type of company. Um, you know, the, the market changes in, in terms of what, what a buyer is looking for, right. Well, there's been a lot of absorption of little firms in the oil field services. industry, especially, right, or not little firms, but like medium size and even the gas players and stuff. Yeah. So certainly, um, in oil and gas and that world's changed quite a bit. So when I started at the firm, it was focused solely in oil and gas because that was the hot oil services. Yeah. Um, partially, I mean, it was hot. When it was, you know, when that was going, but, um, the founder at the time, Chris, um, he started the firm as a, as a generalist firm. So doing all kinds of deals, um, and then made that transition into oil and gas in kind of 08, 09, and then, um, And then kind of quickly became the sole focus of the firm up until probably 2018. Okay. At which point, um, we started to just kind of broaden our reach region a little bit and, and come back. Right. There's certain things that we, um, we don't get involved in because we just don't have any expertise there. Right. Yeah. Like healthcare and Right. You know, tech and stuff like that. Right. It's, that's all kind of gray matter to me. I mean, you're kind of more blue colliery things. There was a HVAC company or a concrete firm or whatever, asphalt construction business. Yeah. So it could be, could be anything like that. I mean, we're still big proponents of energy, um, you know, in oil and gas, but there hasn't been as much consolidation in the services side of that. I see. It's more about the asset ownership where the consolidation is. Well, it it's, you know, in that world, there's still a ton of activity, M& A activity in that world, but a lot of that is on the EMP side, right? So the producers, you don't have as much value there. You're not, well, that's just, yeah, that's just never anything that we did. So, um, so now we got into, you know, things like building materials and industrial services, energy services, still, um, manufacturing, distribution, transportation, we did a number of trucking deals back in the day. Interesting. Um, Are some of these being acquired by like Public companies. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes the strategic acquisition, but put it making it part of the Borg. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So we've done, I mean, we've done both, right. In fact, depending on the deal, right. And the size and you know, what the angle is, we'll usually go out to both financial buyers as well as strategic buyers. So, um, and, and depending on what the goal is, how many, Transactions, do you think you've been a part of like either directly directly or even just supporting Chris and the team early? Yeah, good question. Um, man, I'd say in the 30 range. Okay, probably. Yeah. Um, it's, you know, it's an interesting thing. Like you get, you know, A pretty sizable payday once in a while. Right. So, live frugally between big paydays, I imagine. Well, you learn that. Oh, they have nice shoes. I like those shoes. Oh, Yeah. I need new ones, actually. I guess Jill just bought me some new, uh, I ran out of brown shoe polish, so my shoes are really, they're looking like it. I'm in the market for a new pair of brown shoes. Oh, well, good, good. Um, so what did I, what did I, what was the question? Oh, so yeah, but I mean, that's an interesting revenue model, right? Like you spend all that time working, you know, you're working three, four, five, six clients, maybe at a time, once or twice or four times a year. Six times a year, maybe when things are hopping, things close. Yeah. And I would say on average, because every deal is different, right? Um, one deal might move and start to finish, be done in, you know, as quick as like four or five months. And that's flying. Yeah. Um, Cause there's a lot of due diligence to happen and all that. Well, yeah. And are you almost like an owner's rep? Uh, in, in some ways, if you were like a real estate project developer where your job is to represent the owner's interests in getting this thing done effectively. Um, yeah, you could look at it like that. Different. I mean, there's so much more negotiation and variables involved in this, I suppose. Yeah. And it is a, see, I would think of it as if I were an owner's rep, I would be, I'd see where you're coming from. I, in my head, I think of that as like buy side representation as opposed to sell side. Right, right, right. Um, so working for the buyer, going out and sourcing deals on behalf of them. Right, right. Right. Yeah. Negotiating that element. Um, but for us on the sell side, and sell side is kind of, uh, because the owner is the person that owns the business, that owns the business. Right. Right. And so we are representing them and, and it's, and it may not be for, you know, most people just think like, Oh, it's for retirement. I'm not ready to retire yet. Or I'm not ready. Right. Right. That kind of thing. A lot of it is companies that, that almost kind of outgrow the owner. Yeah. Right. And they get to, they get kind of capped out and they don't know they want to grow. They still have plenty of energy and totally, you know, Gus might not be in their highest and best use in this place. Well, and they don't know how, right. They don't know. And they don't have the capital and they're tired of, of, you know, writing it all, you know, on, on their backs, right. Yeah. Risk standpoint. Um, so in that instance, maybe it's bringing in a partner and, or maybe they're at the age where they want to retire and be done. Right. And, and. And in some cases, you know, maybe the business isn't salable, right? That's, that's a, that's a possibility to, well, and, and it's just because of, you know, because of reporting issues or financial issues or what have you, um, or it could be safety issues, right? Like, um, but, and then will you put your consultant hat basically on and try to get it saleable? Yes. So that sounds like you should get paid more for those kinds of projects. So we charge for that. Right. So, so we'll charge for the consulting side of things. And sometimes that happens, right? People will get referred in and say, Hey, I understand that you can, you know, help us kind of dissect our, our financials and, and tell us how we should be reporting kind of thing. So we'll, we'll, you know, pull our sleeves up. You've got expertise even in that. Yeah, for sure. Because that's. Kind of traditionally how we've managed each process, right? Like, um, you know, it's very consultative in nature. So we're, we're patient, um, we're patient folks. We want to get it done, but we want to get it done the right way. Like, you know, the old adage of you only have, you know, One, what is it, the, the, your, uh, you only have one shot, one shot at a first, um, at the first impression. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holy cow. I almost got that out. Yeah. Well, and what I'm thinking to myself here is if, if you can identify a quarter million dollars of expense savings that this company really should do, and you can start making progress toward that before you go talk to a suitor. Like that's a really positive seller side activity. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll do that even inside of a process. Right, right. And, and can, you know, communicate that to them. Well, and you get to be kind of a, because you've done so many service based businesses in that industry, you can kind of be an aggregator of. Smart practices and techniques and suppliers and other service providers and stuff like that. Hey, this guy's bending you over on this particular thing. Absolutely. And, and we try not to get involved too much in that. Right. Because you want to be respectful. You're looking over the operations manager's shoulder, the CFO. You want to be respectful of the relationships in place. Right. But, um, at the same point, you know, your duty is to, to help your client and, and put that stuff in front of them and it's their choice to make, but talk to me about like. From what you've seen at least, um, you know, and we talked about like private equity we talked about like family offices, strategic buyers, um, maybe there was a fourth one in there, but like talk to me about what makes sense for who. Uh, from your experience. Yeah. Good question. Yeah. It a hundred percent depends on where you're at in life. The goal, the goals of the client. You sure. Right. Um, because if, if, if somebody is say, go back to that, the previous example, like the business has outgrown the owner, but they're not ready to be done. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, but they need help. They need help, you know, um, financially planning wise, like strategic strategy, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, looking to hire an executive virtual assistant or a virtual executive assistant right now. Sorry to interrupt you, but. Like I've been having conversations about what do I really want to do? Well, I think what I might really want to do is like hire a better CEO for local think tank than me at some point. And then stay involved, stay in significant ownership and be podcast founder guy. Sure. Sure. Right. Like, can I do that? Is that a, is that, is that a trade off? Can I make that transition? I don't know. Yeah. Maybe not yet. And that's like, right. That's a question. But I think I could definitely hire a better CEO than me if I'm being real. Well, I don't know, I can't comment on that, but you know, I think you've done pretty well so far. Yeah, I've enjoyed it. You know, and I'm not, I don't suck at it, you know, I'm still the best one for the job that I've found. Absolutely. Plus I can't afford a CEO, like sacrifice all of my income and then double that to hire a proper CEO. Well, and then it's, What does it do for you? Like, what's, what's the goal of loco think tank and can you get it there? Yeah, do you need to bring somebody else in to help you get it there? I think that's the question We're trying to figure out right now. Yeah. Yeah, for sure So do you have some of that kind of anyway to get back to you and your answer to that question? Like it's what do they really want? Yeah, so further are they capable of for the For the owner that it's, uh, the businesses kind of outgrown them, or they want to, they have a vision of, of moving into a certain area or expanding into another, like, you know, adding, adding a product mix or, you know, something else, whatever that is. Um, Um, but they don't, yeah, but they don't have the means be it, you know, they don't have the team to do that. They don't have the money to do it. They don't want to take the risk personally. Um, at that point then you would bring in a partner to do that. Right. And, and that person would have, and that would allow in that new space, potentially things like that. Exactly. And so, but that's not. That's not everybody out. That's not just a complicated transaction. It's not just any, you're marrying somebody, right. And so then, um, then it's really important to find the right partner. And this is something that gets lost often because more often than not, folks get so caught up in the numbers, right? Like the valuation, what's my, what's the number going to be? They're going to come in and value it at X. And well, I had it at X plus whatever. Um, And, and they may not be happy with it, but they have to see the bigger picture. Right. And so there's a trade off, but it allows there's a better culture fit and all those 85 or 150 or 300 employees stick around and things go better and they just like, People effectively give birth to these organizations, right? Like, when they get sold to the person that abuses their child, they hate it. Well, yeah, and there are plenty of those stories. It's worth a lot of money not to have that happen. Right, right. There are plenty of those stories. Um, and, and, and it's unfortunate, right? I mean, we've certainly seen it and you hear about it all the time and it gives, you know, private equity specifically a bad name, but, um, and, and rightfully so, honestly, but, um, but there are good ones out there too, right? And so it's, it's knowing those and knowing, you know, those, I would say that's true. A lot of like a lot of private equity people are in it for the right reasons. Sure. And then there's, like, I think, kind of like the mortgage industry from back in the day, there's a lot of things that encourage bad behavior. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and in the private equity realm, it's kind of not, not any different, you know, if something's just not growing fast enough, well, you're just going to have to starve it off then. You know? Right. Right. I've given them any more food. Yeah. So, um, so that situation is different. That would take us down one path, right? A strategic acquirer going back to your, your question, a strategic acquirer is, um, is kind of more appropriate for an exiting owner. Somebody that wants to really, just wants to sell. Maybe wants to, maybe wants to stick around inside the organization. Um, but, but that's usually your, your a hundred percent deal, right? I'm going to sell a hundred percent of the company and that's going to go to strategic acquire. Um, Oftentimes on the financial side of things, at least with private equity, it's not a hundred percent sale, but it depends on the type of transaction. Right? So if it's a platform investment for them, um, chances are they're going to buy. Somewhere between 80, you know, 70, 80 percent of the company. So that the owner is still invested going to retain, you know, um, your slower buyout kind of quote unquote role, right. You know, that remaining chunk of equity, because then it's, it's about the growth going forward. Yep. Um, now when they, which is usually, hopefully good for both sides, cause the owner gets a little more kicker and hopefully they're more invested in the success of the transition. Right. Right. That's how it's, that's how it's supposed to go. Right. Right. And then, and then you have others that, so say they acquire a platform company and they acquired at 80%, the selling, the selling owner, you know, retains 20%. And then they go and they make another acquisition. That's half its size. And they call that an add on, right? So, or bolt on. Oh, right. Because the multiplier increases the more you, well, the bigger, the bigger you get the multiplier, the multiples go up. Right. Right. So, um, so, but the add ons now usually do sell a hundred percent. Usually. Okay. Not always. And sometimes they have the opportunity to retain some role, some equity. Right. But more often than not, if they're smaller. Well, the numbers are smaller, so if they're smaller, then it's, it's a smaller piece of the bigger pie, but, um, they have no hand anyway, basically. Yeah. And, um, but, but oftentimes an add on, you know, Looks like a hundred percent sale for that type of buyer, but that's where you get into the differences of size, right? Like that might be a deal that's say less than 10 million, and then you get deals that are, you know, 20 and higher, you know, might be your, Platform opportunities. Mm-Hmm. for the private equity folks. Mm-Hmm. So, um, now, and there's probably private equity firms that specialize in that, you know, 10 to 25 kind of Absolutely. Revenue range. And their, their goal is really to grow'em a little bit, get the multiplier up a little bit more, and then aggregate with something else. Right. Right. Be that helping hand. We're talking about family offices. Yeah. So family offices are, are typically, um, made up, they're backed by family money, right? Like so a wealthy family, um, and then it's, that money is managed by rather than invest in wall street. They, yeah, exactly. Bye. Operating businesses. Right, exactly. And so they, they build a team and they do that now they don't, they traditionally hold those investments longer, right? Because they, they're not looking for the quick turn and leverage transactions and stuff like the private equity. What they want is. A way to turn all this fabulous wealth into real income instead of just having all our wealth at 5 percent in the CD. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, and try to build the expertise then to really. Do they, like, typically do they do, how much of the back office kind of stuff do they do? Do they, like, do they still have like a president and a GM at these kind of middle market firms and stuff? But the, they're, that person isn't necessarily a equity player or maybe they got a little bit still or how's that? Yeah. So you mean on the buy side? Yeah. Like if I'm a family office, like am I acquiring a hundred percent of almost everything? Or is, in some cases, the founder is still, you know, Yeah. Often, oftentimes a family office will acquire a hundred percent. Yeah. Often, not always. So, so the caveat to all of this stuff is none of it is always right. Um, every single deal is different. Every buyer is different. Every, so there's. That happens, right? But I would say overwhelmingly a family office is going to acquire a hundred percent private equity as a platform. It's going to acquire a portion and consider it a, what's called a majority recap and, um, and then do add ons, and then a strategic acquisition. Yeah. Strategic acquire is going to do more often than not a hundred percent. They may fund some in company stock if it's public or, or even do some, uh, merge type activity, right? Like here, here's this much cash and here's a little bit of our stock. Cause we are. publicly traded even, um, just to keep it interesting. Um, what would be the main motivations for someone to sell to a family office? It would be, it would be similar to, uh, a strategic Except like for a, for an exit, right? A complete exit. Um, except it may be a better fit. So as an exiting owner, you might get a, uh, an offer from. You know, X, y, z company a a big player right. In your given industry. Um, but a family office might come in, but you don't like the, you don't like the bigger guys? I hate that fucking guy. You don't like the Yeah, exactly right. You don't like, or maybe there's not as much value to like a vertical integration kind of thing. Well, for a strategic acquirer, and, and they, it works well as a standalone be, but that's for them to decide. Right. Gotcha. But, but as an exiting owner. Keep in mind, you've built this company from scratch and, and you want to, you want to set your employees, like oftentimes like family and you've been talking shit about this and yeah, by the way, we just sold to him. So, so there's that. So that's a, that's one angle that a family office comes into play. Another one is, um, Look, I've got a company. I know that I just can't, I'm just done, right? I love the business. I want to stick around, but I'm just done with all the headache. I'm done with the HR. I'm done with accounting. I'm done with having all my wealth, like at risk. I'm done with the risk. I'm, I want to put some money in the bank, but I want to keep working and I'll still do it. That could be a family, that could be private equity option or family office options. Especially for that operator that turned into an entrepreneur that turned into a. Owner of a pretty big business. Right. And he's like, I just really kind of want to work. Right. Yeah. At some point, you know, make sure my grandkids is college is covered. Yeah. At some point being an employee sounds pretty good. That'd be in the, um, but it could also be a really good op opportunity for the, for the employees, right. Growth opportunity and, and you're, you're, you're, you're. Um, and you have a better feeling about them. They're not going to flip it five years from now. Right, right. Right. Like private equity. Well, they could even potentially have a partial employee stock ownership thing. Sure. Like where the family office is obviously in control, but there's some upside for some of those key employees that have been around for a while and whatever. Yeah. And I would say there's, there are, um, in most deals, um, and depending on size a little bit, but in most deals, there are management. Incentive options like pools management and sample that gets structured into the, to the deal anyway. So, um, they want to make sure that their key employees are taken care of, but, um, on the family office thing too, because they, they're not looking to flip it, right. They're going to, they're going to hold it. Chances are for longer than private equity. And, but they don't want to go to big strategic, you know, big, bad competitor down the road. So that, that could be another reason. Interesting. Yeah. Um, can we jump in the short term time machine? Yeah. Uh, it's such an interesting industry and business. And I think, uh, like going to like where you were at, what place in life, when you first started working at Citadel. Um, and like a little bit of that journey back up to where, where you are now. Sure. Um, so I'll, I'll go back to kind of coming out of school. Right. So I graduated from CSU in December of a one. Okay. Um, right after nine 11, right. It was a finance major. Um, the job market was less than ideal. So I took a job that, you know, working for a finance company, doing shitty loans, basically. And I didn't know, I didn't know, yeah, more or less, right. Um, so I went to work for a finance company, finance company doing, doing, um, personal consumer loans, mortgages, you name it. And, and it just didn't feel right to me. Right. Um, at the time now I didn't know any better, unfortunately, at the time when, when I was in school and as a finance major, Lending was never part of the curriculum and as big of a, as big of a deal as actually make any money. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Actually. But there was, there was no discussion around it. Right. So. Yeah. I remember that too. There wasn't really like, you know, what debt was in a financial statement kind of, that's about it. That's it. But nothing else. Nothing about cashflow, debt service, even none of that stuff. No, no, no, no. Huh. Fascinating. So, um. Yeah. Absolutely. So I was down, this was in Denver, I moved down there with a, a buddy of mine, my business partner now, Matt, um, he had a place, um, we lived together in college and lived together after and so I moved down there for all of about six months, lived downtown and hated my job and moved back to Fort Collins. I had a buddy that said, Hey, you should go work with this guy, um, in the mortgage industry and what you're doing is, you know, You know, that doesn't sound good. So I said, all right, so I moved back and went to work, um, in the mortgage world. Um, and this was in whatever, oh, two, right. The heyday. Yeah. And some of the heydays. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's certainly the start of it. Um, and, uh, I realized pretty quickly, I, I was only on the broker side for about two years. Um, I realized pretty quickly that I am not a B2C guy. Right. Right, so I just cannot sit across Dealing with a hundred people a year, or three hundred people a year, like And sit across from Joe and Susie, homeowner, like, you need to do this. Like, that's just not me, right? You don't want to do it. That's fine. I'm not going to convince you. Right. So, um, no, so I realized pretty quick, I, I started, um, uh, with a, a separate buddy of mine, Mortgage brokerage. Okay. Um, and did that for a while. He still runs it actually has done really well, but, um, but, uh, I got out and I'd moved to the wholesale side. So then I was a wholesaler for the next, what was it? Five, six, six years. So you're like sourcing mortgages for these other companies that like consolidate them then? I work for a couple of big banks. Um, two specifically that were, you know, separate kind of target. Target one was one was in the HSBC affiliate. Um, yeah, and one was American Homework. That's an English one, right? Um, Or UK, whatever. They were, yeah, they were based in, No, it was, One of the banks I worked for, yeah. They were based in Hong Kong. Oh, is that right? Okay. All right. Well, they're kind of pretty sure over there. Anyway, uh, Hong Kong is like a weird British Asian conglomeration anyway. Yeah. Global anyway. Um, so, um, I was a wholesaler for, uh, You know, five, six years, um, until the mortgage, mortgage market crash in oh seven, right. Before the stock market crash. Right, right. Um, and then, so then I got out in late oh seven and went to work with a couple of kind of former clients of mine that own mortgage companies here. Right. And we were trying to source debt project financing for various, you know, projects, whatever, domestically and a little bit like my, well, I was my bear capital advisors with my first business. And it was like, Hey, I get 1 percent if I find you some money. Right. How's that exactly. Exactly. Which was not nearly enough margin. Well, um, but. For just a loan, you know, for a bank loan. Sure. Yeah. It's pretty good. Yeah. And if the loan was big enough, right. Yeah. Um, but a million dollar loan, you know, that's 10 grand. That can be in a life for a while. For sure. So, um, okay. So we did that, but we were too honestly naive at that point to know that the credit markets were totally dry. Like this is a way, the whole world had gone. You're taking all these projects and finding people money and finding them no money. Yeah. Yeah, so, but that's when I met Chris, uh, Frevert, who was the founder of Citadel. And so, um, we just stayed in touch for the next three years, um, two and a half years. And we'd meet, you know, kind of quarterly, whatever. Like, that's, how did you meet him? Like, what was the circumstance? Yeah, we had a deal that was referred to us, um, that we were trying to source financing for, um, or an equity injection. Somebody that, yeah. And if they could find some loan capital, it would really help put this deal together almost. And they were looking for, for equity at the time. And it was effectively like a private placement type of situation. It wasn't private placement, but, um, so, but, but that's when through it, through another referral contact, right. I got introduced to Chris. We referred the deal to Citadel at the time. So this is back in Oh, eight. Oh, I see. Um, and so that's, then the relationship started with him. And so then we would meet, you know, quarterly, whatever, just for breakfast or lunch kind of. And just cause he thought you were smart or what? Like, that's what I'm, I guess, I'm being Jordan Peterson on you now, like, Why would he care, why would he give one half shit about you in that time? Good question, good question. You'll have to ask him, I don't know. That's a great question, I've never thought about that before. Um, no, I, you know. And I've had people take an interest in me and build friendships and stuff too, that were, you know, a generation above me typically or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know. It was good. I mean, I'm thankful that he did. You know, he's a nice guy. It was a peer thing. Yeah. Mentor thing a little bit, but more peer. For sure. And, and it was, you know, I think I had expressed to him that, like, look, I, Always wanted to know about the business and yeah, okay. Um, I, in fact, when I was in college, I remember thinking that I wanted to be an investment banker, but I didn't really know what that meant, right? Like, are we like syndicating loans? Are we underwriting stuff for wall street? Are we right? And take companies public, right? Yeah, all that. What do they do? And just didn't know, right? Didn't have any idea. And that's why there are so many different areas of it. But, um, so I don't know. I'm, I'm thankful that he did. Um, good question. And so, anyway, we, we stayed in touch. And then, um, he said, Well, if. You know, if you want to join, it's just thing you're doing. It doesn't work out. You wanna join Citadel? Like, I'm, you know, let me know. And I said, well thanks, you know, I'm not there yet and whatever. And then, um, uh, so then, uh, we had done this, this, um, finance thing with my other two buddies. Um. And, and nothing went anywhere. So we did it for a year and a half. Didn't close a deal. Pissed her a ton of money. It was, it was brutal. Right. And, um, and I remember I was having lunch with my dad at the pickle barrel and we were sitting on the patio and he's like, Aaron, what are you going to do for work? Like you can't keep doing this, right? I'm like, well. You know, I don't know. He's like, well, what do you have money like? Where did you have money? I had built it up from my wholesale days. Oh, right. Cause yeah, you were crushing it back then. Yeah. So, um, so your wife that you married while you had this big pile of money, we weren't married. Oh, that's the other thing. Okay. Um, yeah, we'll get into that. Broke ass days before you got married. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but we were close at this point, Sarah and I. But she's increasingly, this was your father or your father in law? Yeah, yeah, my father. Um, anyway. And, uh, um. So he could have called you out. My dad did that with me. I was into him for like 55 grand on my food truck. Oh, sure. My mobile food business. And he's like, I don't think I'm in for any more. Yeah. Fair. Your business isn't worth 60, 000. Yeah. Like that trailer's worth 20 and I don't know how you're going to pay it back. Yeah. Yeah. Tough pill to swallow. Yeah, it was. Yeah. It's brutal. But it's good to go through, I mean Oh yeah. Thankful to have support along the way, right? Oh yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I wouldn't be here right now, you know, with that. I could be food trucking still. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Divorced three times chasing carnivals around the country. Who knows? You just don't know. That's right. So, so your, so your dad calls you to the carpet? Yeah. So he said, what are you gonna do? Right? You, you need to, at some point you have to make money. And I said, well, I said, okay. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I know that. Uh, what I want is I want, I want to be in charge of kind of how much I make. Right. Like no upside. Um, I want corporate support. I want to be remote. I'm, I want to check in with corporate every now and again, but I want to make, you know, good money and, and work my own schedule. Six figures with a 20 hour work week. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, Aaron, that doesn't exist. I was like, it does exist. Cause I lived it for the previous, like six years. I was ascribing my old job. And, um, and he said, you know what, instead of looking at it from a perspective of what you want to do, look at it from a perspective of what you're not willing to give up. And it totally flipped me. Right. So at the time I had an opportunity to go into the financial services world. And, and I didn't want to do it at the time. Right. Because I knew, right. I remembered my mortgage broker days and I'm like, I am not a B2C guy. And that world is not me. Right. But, um, but he said. Look at it from what, from a perspective of what you're not willing to give up. And at the time I knew that Sarah and I were going to get married, right? We weren't engaged yet. Um, and she was a teacher and she was here and her family was here. And so. I was like, well, I can't move a here move. I'm not like gonna, there's one thing you're not willing to do. I've been moved to, you know, Chicago right? Or whatever. Um, because she probably won't follow me. Oh, and by, oh, and by the way, nobody wants This is, keep in mind, this is like 2009. Nobody wants anybody with eight years of mortgage experience on the resume. Like nobody's touching mortgage people, except for other mortgage people, which sounds kind of bad. Nobody's touching mortgages. Um, but yeah, but right. No, it was gross. I mean, my resume is nasty. Lucky you weren't in jail. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm teasing, but lucky some, some of those guys are lucky they weren't in jail, a lot, like thousands of them. Not you. Um, no. Um, but, but anyway, so I said, okay, well. I'm going to take this job in the financial services space. Uh, and so I can stay here with Sarah. We'll get engaged, whatever. Yeah. It was safe choice. It was great. Right. It allowed me to get licensed. So I have my securities license. Oh, my series seven. Oh, so this is like an Ember Jones or yeah, it was an insurance insurance. Oh, more insurance focused. Um, so, but it allowed me to get licensed and, um, yeah. And then I, I learned that business, which I'm really thankful that I did. Cause it was really helpful for me personally. It's useful. Right. Um, but I got, I was two years in and I'm like, this sucks. Like I'm not making any money. And, and I had actually gone to work for a, uh, RIA, an independent, um, advisor in. Uh, in the Boulder area. And that was referred to me by my, my wife's uncle. And, um, and he was great, like awesome. Um, he wanted somebody that was already licensed to kind of come in and be a junior, or at least that's what I was told. Um, And an awesome guy, right? Like ran a good practice, had a really good book, but he wasn't even close to retiring, like not even close when I was commuting. Right. And I was married judge kind of just got married. Right. Um, I was commuting and you have 10 years later, maybe different conversation. And keep in mind, I'm 30. One years old at this time and I'm making like 2, 500 bucks a month, right? And I'm like, holy shit. What have I done? And Finally, so then I called Chris and I was like, hey I'm like, I'm ready to jump Right. So I'm finally coming back around to my citadel start, but he said, I said, I'm ready to jump and he's like, well, that's great. Well, I got two positions and one is a managing director. You gotta eat and eat what you kill type of thing. You got to last for no less than a year. Um, I'm like, well, that's not going to work. What's the next one? Yeah. And he said, well, the other one, unfortunately is like a, it's an analyst position, but it's part time 15 hours a week, um, 15 bucks an hour. And I was going to hire an intern and I'm like, I'll take it. And he's like, what? And I said, yeah, I'll, I'll take it. And so he's like, I don't understand. I said, well, number one, I, I learned best from the bottom, right? Like from learning from the bottom of whatever I'm doing. Like I have to understand the foundation in order to continue to grow. Right. Um, so I said, yeah, if that's my, I'm not qualified for the managing director, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, um, So I started there working 15 hours a week and 15 bucks an hour. How long before you got, uh, a raise? Yeah, yeah. So I moved to full time within like six months probably. Okay. And then, and then I had a small salary and then started participating or, you know, Chris would then pay. You know, me commissions on deals that closed and, um, and that sort of stuff. So I started making a little bit of money and then just gradually got more and more involved in the deals. Um, was doing a lot of traveling, a lot of, you know, customer facing interaction and, um, you know, You're kind of his right hand for a long time. Exactly. How long a time? Um, really till kind of 2018. So I started there in 11, May of 11 and until 18. And then we wrote it, right? Like, so keep in mind going back, it was oil field services focused. Um, and it was on this crazy run. Right. Right. That world was, um, but then the oil market crashed in, in, uh, 14, right. Midway through August of 14. Yeah. Um, and so then everything kind of stopped and, and we still had a couple of deals come in and, um, and we still closed a handful of deals like in the coming years, but it started slowing down, right? The consolidation, the service. The space in oil and gas. Well, this is the time when you and I kind of first got acquainted properly and you were, Maybe you still are doing some side hustle stuff. Like, um, I have some other stuff that I'm like some ownership interests and some companies and stuff like that. So, um, but so that stuff kind of came together while you were doing this. And I don't want to say side hustle stuff. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure it's very serious, but Yeah, no, that's, it did come together kind of at that time. Right. Um, I can touch on that, but you know, when we got into kind of 18, we all kind of went our separate ways. Right. So, um, uh Chris had retired kind of shortly thereafter, um, he moved to the East Coast, and, uh, And there wasn't really a business there to retire from if there wasn't much deal flow. Well, there wasn't any deal flow, right? Right. Um, and, and, honestly, he said, he, he was great, and he said, look, just, just take it. Just take, like, I want Citadel to go to somebody that has history with it, which would be me and Matt, right? Yeah. Um, and, um, I just want it to, to continue. Like, I don't do whatever. Yeah. And, and I didn't want to do that just to take it. Right? So I continued to, to do deals just on my own under my own LLC and I was up front with Chris. He knew about it. Um, so I continued to close deals just by myself. And then I was doing more and more consulting work also. So, and that's my entry. When you said kind of side hustle stuff, I had an opportunity with a buddy to help him, um, just kind of with, you know, You know, accounting stuff, getting his business kind of squared away, ended up selling it, um, you know, a couple of years later and, and then was part of that thing. And, and, um, you had become like a minority owner along the way or something. There was a, there was a small piece just cause I'd lent, lent the company some money and whatever, but it was very, very small and, um, but helped it kind of get to the point where then those owners ended up selling it again. And, um, And, uh, and so then, you know, that kind of got my entry into the whole consulting stuff. And, and honestly, it started with, you know, on the Citadel side, we had a client, um, in Houston. I spent a ton of time with kind of reworking and accounting stuff with their team. Um, Is there kind of a numbers nerd at your heart? Uh, I like it. Yeah. Okay. I am, if I had my druthers, I would just be. we would have like engage clients and I would be managing those processes. Cause I can do those from anywhere. I can do calls. I can, I can do the numbers thing. Like I don't, I don't want to get into the weeds of the numbers. I have to, right. You want numbers. You can trust the process, the deal flow, the. Matchmaking, ultimately. Yeah, and I really enjoy it, like, from when you make the match, right? The matchmaking, from that point on. That's my, that's my jam. Yeah, kicking it to the finish line. Yeah, yeah. And so Chris, like, re invited you to come back in and where did Matt fit in? Was he also working side by side with you during these years? So Matt started a year after I did. So he started in 12, I believe. And then, um, so he and I were working side by side, right. Over those years. And then he bought, um, a business and then bought another one kind of locally. Um, and so then those businesses were taking, you know, some of his time. And so he, you know, kind of moved to those and rightfully so, right. Cause deal flow had slowed anyway. And, um, so he had kind of gone that direction. Chris had kind of gone his direction. I kind of went my direction. Um, Claudia, another gal that worked with us kind of went her direction. And, uh, And, um, so it just kind of dissolved. It didn't dissolve officially, but, um, it was still there in the background. Right. Cause we still have had and have, uh, like legacy clients that we've had for 10 years kind of thing, um, that we stay in touch with and that sort of thing, which is, which is great. And acquirers that want to know if you've met anybody lately. Absolutely. That never stops. Right. Um, but, uh, So, so Matt had kind of gone his, his way. I went my way. And then, um, you know, he was contemplating maybe a ship. Matt was contemplating it, maybe a shift in, in his world, um, a couple of years ago and express interest in getting back in the kind of deal game. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so we said, yeah, I think. So yeah, that'd be great. You know, that's awesome. Um, and, and I have been in touch with Chris, both Matt and I had been in touch with Chris over all these years, like we're still friends and everything. So, um, so we, you know, had been talking to Chris and, and so we worked it out to acquire Citadel from him a little, about two and a half years ago, probably. Probably super good guy terms. He's just, yeah, you know, there's some value, there's some going to get certain value because some of those relationships and stuff and just being around for 20 years instead of three. So that's, that's part of it. Certainly. Right. And that was the, that was the big thing for us is like, because there is some, you know, I could go out and under my own LLC and umbrella and show the, you know, You know, four deals that I closed by myself, or I could, you know, use the Citadel stuff that I was a part of, right. And then there's, there's double or triple those number of transactions that were before me that we don't even have on the website. Right. So, um, so we used it, you know, kind of a, it was a. More of a marketing play than anything, but it's also like, no, for sure. Legacy can continue on and breathe new life into other businesses and people's lives. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, so that's worked out great. And, and we've, we've put in a ton of work and, um, it's a different world now than it was, right? Like kind of being full throttle in it. There's, there's a lot more competition of folks like us. There's, Um, yeah, the buyer, the buyer world, um, is different. Their buyer activity is buyers are approaching sellers directly far more than they used to. Some of my next level members report getting like a phone call a month. Oh, I would somebody, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a day, like, it's crazy. And they're like, why do I need you? Well, so that's the thing. And so that's a horror stories from their friends and they're like, Oh, maybe I should call Aaron before I get too far into that. That's a whole nother story. Right. Because then you talk about, well, who's in control of the deal at that point. Yeah. Right. And so I have that conversation a lot with folks in that, um, you know, buyer contacts them and says, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, we want to buy you, we acquire you, whatever, you know, you can, we'll be flexible with structure. We'll, you know, we're thinking this valuation range and it's traditionally more than what, maybe what the, what the seller, you know, is expected. They don't get any representation. Well, and so then they spend, you know, anywhere from 90 to 180 days in due diligence, sometimes longer. Um, and they just get. Drug, right? And it's, it's disrupting your whole business, your operations go downhill, your cash flow, your profitability. Now all of a sudden you're worthless. You're participating to, you know, on conference calls, you know, multiple times a week and the owner's like, holy hell. You're actually destroying value in this thing you're trying to sell. Yeah. I don't have time for this shit. Right. So, um. Um, so then they get down to the, to the end, right in the 11th hour. And the, the buyer comes back and says, well, we found X, Y, and Z during due diligence. So we're going to have to ding you on valuation with this, or we're going to ding you in structure somehow. Or pay out slower. Yeah. Or we're going to earn out. Yep. Um, so. So we talked to folks a lot about being proactive about that, right? Like you may not want to sell for two years, but let's, let me paint a picture for you. Right. Like, so, Initially, it's going to take three to four months before you can even go to market. And that's, and that's moving, like, if your financials are already in good shape, your controller is worth a shit. Right, right, right. So all of that stuff, right. So you're at four months there. You're anywhere from, from Two to, you know, two, three months to six to nine, kind of. So anywhere from two to nine months while you're marketing it. Um, and then you have another kind of, you know, 60 days and that kind of that LOI negotiation, picking your horse kind of thing, and then another 90 days on top of that to close it. And, and you're already a year and a half, a year, right. Anyway, um, or a year and a half down the path. Oh, and by the way, they're going to. You know, make you stay for six months at a minimum, right? Typically it's at least a year, sometimes it's two. So if you want to be out in two years, like you had to start like two years ago. Yeah, well, certainly now, right. So that's something. And then when you do that, right. Different than if you start that process, then. We sit down and talk about goals, your goals, your expectations. Like, do you have a psychology degree or do you hire a counselors or anything? Cause I imagine a lot of owners are like, I don't quite know what I want. Of course. I want something different than what I have right now. Of course. So we'll walk him down that path and kind of paint the picture. What do you think about this path? Kind of thing. What do you think about that one? Um, and so we, we talk with them about their goals and, and then we build out that material. You know, in line with those and, and then we go to the market, which is likely the same buyer or similar, that's going to approach you anyway. And then we go and say, here are the terms that are okay with us, right? Here's they'll stay for six months. They're, they're not interested in an earn out. They won't do seller financing. They, you know, have to take care of their, they need a management incentive pool for their key employees. They need this. They want to roll 20%. They want to roll 30%. They don't want to roll anything. Whatever the case may be, right. And so then you take it out and you're like, take it or leave it. And then it's up to me and us, right. To manage the process based on those objectives. With the right acquirer. Yeah, absolutely. That's not going to blow up the culture or whatever. That's right. And so then it's, um, so then it's a lot of. You know, you, you kiss frogs, right? Like, like in, in most, you know, business situations. But, um, but you try to do a lot more than they realize too. Absolutely. And you try to, you try to do it the right way, right. To, to meet the goals and, and get them to that, get them to the end instead of. Having it flipped in the 11th hour. I've got a, uh, a member and I won't say enough to be identifiable, but this, this member had probably 17 million a year business or something, but with bottom lining like four, four and a half. And. But was like working 80 hour a week and this and that it's like dude, you need some more help Like you've done this thing so much. You just don't have the infrastructure and you can afford it So first figure that out, you know, and just like he didn't realize how what kind of I mean to have a Industry facing kind of blue collar ish. Yeah business that that's that's pulling. I think it was Ish 50 percent gross margins and ish 25 percent net margins. Yeah, yeah, that's great. you got a rock star here. Yeah, that's great. You know, people are going to be licking their lips over buying you someday soon. No doubt. Uh, anyway, I digress. Um, and I have to pee. Oh, sounds good. Um, so I suggest we take a break. Perfect... Ha ha. Ha ha. Well, I, I sincerely believe that it really, most drugs and foods and all that, it really so much depends on your chemistry and what jives with you and what doesn't jive with you. Yeah, that's fair. You know, I think I was, uh, almost certainly a, you know, I'd be a Ritalin kid if I was ten years later kind of thing. Oh, yeah. Um, and for me, it's never really been a, you know. Doesn't make me lazy, doesn't make me paranoid, doesn't make me anything, uh, except for happier. Just low key. Mostly. That's good. More power to you. I, uh, but that's my homegrown there, uh, which, uh, I just harvested the rest of before the big freeze comes. Oh, really? So I've got about a pound, half a pound, somewhere between a half a pound and a pound of like Fresh, drying buds in my man cave right now. Can you say that on the air? It's legal. Yeah, you can grow six plants. See, I don't know anything about that world. How much does that produce? Like, how many times can I get high? Well, six plants. This is just one plant. I grew one plant one plant. And I think I have somewhere in between a half pound and a pound of, like, uh, All we could know is like clippin the little leaves off and so I just got all these branches full of buds now. Wow, good for you. Yeah, you know. That's cool. But I'm already sick of the flavor. Really? That's the beauty of a retail store is it got all these different flavors. So I need to find like a home grower weed network and we can just do like a, a swap meet. Oh, there you go. That's a good idea. Kind of like a, uh, yeah, like a Tupperware party. Yeah. Except for just different fleas. More like a big sale, I would say, where people buy each other's big goods. So they don't have to eat that same shit they always make. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense. Anyway, I digress. Um, So, oh yeah, so we're going to jump, um, into the, the longer term time machine. Okay. Um, and then kind of fly through a little bit, cause you've been in townie all, all your life really. And then we'll hit the kind of mandatory segments and then, and then close it up. And you can tell us about that, uh, edible experience at, uh, at Red Rocks. That one. That might not be the local experience. So, um, Yeah, so you're, you, you are born and raised, like, born right here in Poudre Valley Hospital or something like that? Born at PVH, yes, sir. Okay. What were, what were the circumstances, uh, I, your dad is in Rotary Club with me. He is? He's a professor. Was? At CSU, was a professor, rather. A long time. Retired now. Yep. Um, so I, I know that about ten percent. him. I imagine he already was. Yeah. When you were born. Yeah. Yeah. So he was with the university for a long time, 35 years, something maybe teaching. Um, he taught in the college of business, uh, management department. Um, but I know any taught late in his later years, well later, I would say last probably 10 or 15 to my recollection, um, in the MBA program. Okay. Um, that sort of thing, but, um, yeah, he taught his, and he would teach kind of the entry level management course occasionally, but, um, he wasn't overly fond of undergrads. Um, so, but he taught org behavior, organizational behavior and ethics. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I took extra ethics, uh, classes. Did you? Yeah. I took a, I got a philosophy minor virtually. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ethics was an interesting thing. Yeah. Well, and we pay, I pay a lot of attention to it at Loco Think Tank. Mm hmm. You know, years ago I had a, a member who had a marketing agency and he's like, dude, I would totally give you like a 10 percent continuing kickback on customers that you refer me to for marketing services. Oh. I was like, well, that sounds great. I wouldn't refer anybody else. Yeah. And, like, I've got three other members that have marketing agencies, and so I can't do it. Like, it would corrupt me. Like, it doesn't mean you're the best fit. It just means you're the one I would get paid on. And that's gross. For sure, for sure. And your industry is filled with That kind of stuff too. So I assume that's even maybe part of your foundation. We'll do, we'll do some of that. Certainly. Unethical stuff. No referral. Well, but, but in your case, your customers are so hard to find that. Well, yeah, because for us, it's, we don't do a lot of like outbound marketing stuff, right. We do some, but, um, but a lot of it is referral through, you know, CLIs and, you know, that kind of thing. So CPAs and whatnot, I suppose. Um, okay. So you're, and was your mom. I forget what was her career path. Yep, so my mom, well, so my parents got divorced when I was seven. Oh, they did? Yep, so my mom lives in Loveland. Okay. And she's remarried, but she Oh, so the, the person I've met, your dad's That wife is not your mom. Yep. Correct. Mary. Gotcha. Yeah. So, but I can touch on all of'em. Sure. So, um, um, so my mom was a geriatric care manager. Okay. Um, and kind of worked in that elder care community for a long time. Um, she retired a number of years ago. Um, Mary, my dad's wife, my stepmom, um, they got, so parents got divorced when I was seven. Um, they got remarried when I was nine and, um, she worked in banking for, oh, yeah, I did remember that. Yeah. So she was the director of marketing for home state for a long time, um, you know, until the guarantee thing happened and then she retired at that point, but do you have siblings too? My, yeah. Um, and, and my mom's married. husband, and they, they live in Loveland. So anyway, um, And what's her, what's her name? Um, my mom's name is Nancy. Hi Nancy. Yeah. You'll probably listen to this. Yeah. She may, um, the, uh, and so I have an older brother and an older sister and an older stepbrother and a younger stepsister. Oh, wow. That's fun. Yeah. Yeah. So my brother and his wife live here in town. Um, and he's an assistant chief with the. F. C. P. D. Oh, okay. Um, Oh, so you got an N if you ever get in trouble. Yeah, I, yeah, I don't, I don't want to use that. Try not to rely on it? No. Um, Hopefully not. But you assume you try to have it a little. Yeah, yeah. So he and his wife live in Fort Collins. They have two kids. Um, they're, uh, both kind of in col One's in college, one's out of college. School or somewhat. Yeah, yeah. Um, and my sister and her husband live in Longmont. Okay. And my stepbrother and his wife and their two kids live in Wisconsin. Okay. And my stepsister and her fiance live in Austin. Oh. So, yeah. There you go. Got quite the, uh, but a lot of concentration here locally. Yeah. What kind of a, uh, two questions really. Uh, what kind of a seven year old were you? Five, six, seven year old, were you, uh, rambunctious, were you sporty, were you smart, were you sassy? Kissing all the girls. Um I would say social, right? Like teachers would, you know, call me social, or that's what my parents would say when they come home from conferences. Right. Um, yeah, so social, sporty, right. Basketball, soccer, you know, stuff. The stuff. Um, yeah, just friends running around doing. How, uh, how was the, like, divorce situation for you? Like, was it traumatic for your family? Was it expected for a while? No, without getting into any details. But how was it on you, specifically? You were the youngest, right, at the time? I was the youngest, yep. Um, you know, It was not expected. It was completely unexpected. Um, now, I don't know if it was expected for them. Right. But, um, but no, it, you know. For you guys, it was like, just so you know, mom and, your mom and I had a talk and we're getting divorced. Yeah, basically. Wow. Yeah. No fighting in the hallways. Except it came from my mom, just so you know. Yeah, yeah. But, at least it did for me. Um, and, you know, it affected me, but, I don't know that it was, um, I mean it was traumatic, but I don't know that it was overly traumatic, right? For none of you guys? So my brother and sister, Our, our seven and six years older than me. Okay. So, so they were 13 when it happened. So it was different for them. Right. Um, but, uh, and then when my dad got remarried, um, you know, two years later, um, it, I don't know, it was a little bit, Were you raised by your mom more? So I split. So from the time that, um, from the time that they got divorced, which, and something that's kind of. Interesting. But, um, or at least from the time that my dad was remarried, I went every other week between the two. Every Sunday, I'd go to the other's house for a week until I was in high school. That's wild. That was unusual back then. Now it's pretty common. Well, thinking about that now, I'm like, holy hell. Every week for seven years. I guess five years, right? Like that's a long time to go every Sunday. No wonder why. Were they in the same neighborhoods and stuff? Um, no, but, but they were both in town. You could go to the same schools, obviously. I mean, that was my, that was, and that was my big thing. Like, that was my big fear about, um, like I just didn't, I didn't want to leave my friends. Did your older siblings choose one? Um, yeah, so early on, my brother lived with my dad and my sister lived with my mom, and then they flopped maybe once or twice back and forth. Um, so, and then in high school I did the same thing. So I kind of live with my dad for a year, the better part of a year that I live with my mom, my junior year. Excuse me, the better part of that year, um, and then back. So, yeah, I was just kind of, it was, increased your adaptability and like the way that you can understand. Certainly, yeah. I don't, I don't know. I mean, it probably did. Yeah. Um, I feel for kids, you know, that are, that go through that. Right. Um, but the crazy thing is I don't remember anything prior to, Me being seven. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I don't, it was, I, I literally have blocked everything out prior to that. Interesting. Prior to my mom telling me, right? So, and I was seven years old and I think about like, I have a daughter who's eight I'm like, and she remembers everything. Right? Right. So, um. So thinking about that, like, I, I just, You haven't unpacked that with a counselor or anything? Trying to, I did as a kid, right? Like, so early on in those years, you to try to remember some of those. Probably. I don't know. It, it, it may be. Just speculating. I don't know. I don't know. Um, And so like, as you go through your teenage years and what did you actually go to college for in the first place? What did you tell me? Um, I originally went for CI, CIS information. Okay. Computer stuff. Yeah. Because I asked my dad and I didn't know what to do. And he's like, Oh, you know, CIS is where the money is. Right. Sweet. Well, that's what I'll do. And it was terrible. I did one class in visual basic and I was like, this is not. Here locally at CSU. Okay. And then what did you shift to? Okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. We talked about that, I guess. Um, like what else about you would people want to know from those, uh, middle age years, middle, middle teen years and stuff where you still in sports, still active. Yeah. Yeah. So I played, I played soccer, um, and basketball, but in skied a ton. Um, but. You know, soccer was kind of my thing. It was kind of a year round thing. Played on a team, you know, traveling team that, and I still have good close friends from that team that I'm still tight with. And, um, which is great. What was your position? At that time it was defense. When I got into high school, then I started playing in offense. Okay. Um, which I don't know why, you know, cause I was always a defender, but, um, so, um, so yeah. But I loved it. I mean, I, I miss it. Certainly. I still dream about it. Really? Uh, yeah, for sure. But you don't play it anymore. No, I, I played in a couple of men's league, you know, years. And, uh, my wife and I played in a co ed league one year. And the last year of, uh, men's league, I, I had, I had torn an ACL, um, skiing and then kept playing on it. And, uh, you know, over a handful of years and then I tweaked it again. And I was like, I'm done. Yeah. I'm out. Yeah. I got, uh, Basketball was my preference more. And I played until probably I was 45 or something, but I got like, I broke a rib. Oh, no kidding. Court injury. And I, you know, had some knee challenges and stuff. And I was like, you know, basketball is just hard. It is hard. Soccer is similarly hard. Yeah. Right. There's just a lot of. Sustained endurance, uh, which is hard, but also just a lot of bodily collisions that break old people that you don't recover from very fast. I miss it. I mean, I do. And I miss playing basketball, too, because I played a lot, but, um, I can't jump like that. Like, the impact bothers me. I was in a car accident years ago, and my back has never been the same, so I just can't. Like I make Can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. When there's a, there's a leaf on a tree like six inches above my hand. Yeah. I'm like, I wish I could jump that high these days. Yeah. Um, alright. Well I think I, I feel pretty comfortable that we've kind of done the, the, the life and business journey. Cool. We're gonna, we're gonna, um, do the, uh, faith family politics segments now. Okay. Uh, we've talked a fair bit about family so far. Do you want to start there or finish there? Do you have a preference? That's, um. No, maybe we finish there. Okay. Um, haven't, well, I guess, uh, yeah, one week from today, today is the election one week for today. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. Um, would you like to give a prediction of electoral count for the Trump and Harris presidencies and we'll see who gets closer. Man. I don't know. I, I don't know. Don't even want to say? I don't, I don't know that I want to say. I, I, I mean, I hope, I, I certainly have my hopes, right? But, um, You hope, uh, hope for hope and change? Joy? Um, I mean, I'm, well, yeah, I'm hoping for change, for damn sure. But not joy? No. No, uh, not a, what is it? The, uh, re re uh, un unrestrained from the things that have been a new thing that could be if we, anyway. Oh shit. I don't know. That's Kamala. That's my poor iation of, yeah. Don't, was rambling on? Yeah, I'm rambling on answer's. No, I, I try not to listen to him. Do, do you, uh, do you get politically active? Uh, in general? No, not terribly. Not really. No. I mean, I, does it matter to your work to the. I mean, I assume the oil industry's, it matters. It does. Absolutely. Like how many billions of dollars were invested in that Keystone project before it got ganked? Yeah. There are so many things. I mean, it's maybe hundreds of millions, a lot. Yeah. I mean, from an oil and gas side, it's just so, it is important and it's, you know, the, the one side is just very. Short sighted, in my opinion, uh, um, oil and gas plays into everything that we have. Yeah, yeah. I've been writing for the last two years that, that, Energy is more like money than money is like money. Yeah, fair. Cause you can't just print energy. Right. You got to fucking go get it. Right. You know, you got to pull it out of the sunlight or you got to pull it out of the water with the hydraulic stuff. You got to pull it out of the neutrons with nuclear. You got to pull it out of the ground, but you can't just print energy. Printed. Right. Right. You know, I still just come back. I would just fall back on logic, right? For me. I mean, it's just, there, there is no, um, do you feel bad about contributing to climate change by allowing all this oil field expansion? Um, no. And, and knowing, knowing how much the oil and gas industry has put into, um, you know, cleaning itself up. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, And then comparing it to other countries that don't, you know, I mean, I, honestly, I think we've done a pretty damn good job. I mean, look, the environment is important, right? It absolutely is. And I'm all for, for protecting it. But um, but I think we've done an amazing job, certainly when compared to others in the world. Right. I mean, well, yeah. Yeah. All the, the cleaning up. That Europe has done. And most, a lot of the cleaning up that America has done has been like moving manufacturing to China and India. Right, right. Well, which share the same water and the same air as we do. And so, okay, now we have. Same dirty shit, just richer Chinese and Indians and poorer Americans. Takes longer to get here. Right, right. Um, okay, so pragmatic, I guess would be how you would define your politics. And I'm, you know, and I would, I would say I'm probably more on the kind of libertarian, you know, mindset, right? Just fiscally conservative. Over half of my guests are. Uh, closet libertarians, or they're not willing to call themselves a libertarian because the libertarians are douchebags and they never do anything useful. Well, that's just it. Well, but there's no money in it. Like, if you're not going to manipulate government for the insiders, then how can that be a sustainable party in America? Yeah, for sure. And it's, and it just isn't. Like, it is a, it is a, it's a two party system because they're all fucking crooked anyway. Right. As far as I'm concerned. That's great. So it's the two birds or two, two wings of the same bird. Yeah. So. So you're still holding your nose and voting for Trump. Absolutely. And wishing that it wouldn't be such a, I think that's my, my exchange student was asking me the other day about the election and whatever, and I bet him 20 bucks. Trump's going to get 300. Yeah. I hope so. I think it might happen. He doesn't think he thinks I'm smoking crack, but I think it's going to be bigger than most people think. Cause I think the Latino vote, the black vote, I mean, it's mostly just the single ladies that are totally in love with Kamala and the college graduates. Yeah, it, you know, man, I don't know, there's, there, there are, um, I don't, I don't know. I, I, I just don't, I, I sure hope that it goes that way. Do you trust the integrity of our elections in America? Um, I, I don't know that I do, um, but I, but I don't feel strong enough to really kind of argue. You're not going to be out there marching in the streets. I just don't know. Right? Like, like I'd I don't, I don't trust many things that happen in politics. I really don't. I mean, the, our CIA has certainly gotten really good at rigging other countries elections. Yeah, well, sure. I mean, so I would assume that just like you've concentrated some knowledge about, about the M& A activity, especially in certain sectors, uh, It's not hard when you live in that world. Right, right, exactly. You know, here's, here's the ways you can do it. Here's the ways you can't get caught. Right, right. Uh, I don't know. And, and they'd be the best at it, right? I would assume, like, who's got more experience rigging elections than the CIA? I can't think of anybody. Yeah, I, um, yeah, I don't know. I, I don't know. I, I sure hope it goes, it goes that way. Um, just for logic sake, fiscal sake, um, policy wise, everything. I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. Yeah. Did you? No. No, you voted for the Republican, probably. I did. Um, and then I voted for Kanye in 2020. Did you? Yeah, I did. Me, and I don't know, I wonder me and 450 other Patriots in Larimer County. Well, it may have been my wife may have been one of those. Of course we were Weld County, but, um, I don't think it felt like the protest. I don't think she voted for Kanye, but I know she didn't. Yeah, she doesn't like the two parties either. No, it's hard, right? Like you're just like, am I throwing my vote away? Well, and. You can only do what you can do. And it's just kind of like, that's why I don't watch the news. I, you know, my news comes from Twitter, right. Or X or whatever. Um, and then, and just. You know, being out there, right? Yeah, yeah. Like you have to watch some. Sure. But, um, yeah, I, yeah, I listened to that. Did you listen to the pod, the Joe Rogan podcast? Oh, sure. With Trump for sure. That was great. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was good. Very interesting. Go here. He's just such a, he's just so hard. He loves people and, and himself, right? Oh yeah. He's a huge narcissist. Egoist. Yeah. Yeah. But he does, he does love, like just talking him, talking about supporting. You know, various businesses and, and going the extra mile for somebody like, that's great. If you have, if you have the ability to do so, but, but he just needs to shut the hell up. Right. Um, well, I told somebody, actually, I met one of our newest members just for coffee before this. And like the, the, that he drew in Tulsi and RFK Jr and Elon Musk and some of these other kind of Discarded Democrats, um, really? And then it didn't chase them off. Yeah. It kind of has endured me to him a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Um, so there's something, there's something about him that attracts, you know, people and, and, and obviously repels people. Certainly. Certainly. Oh yeah. That's easy. How many people with confirmed Trump derangement syndrome do you know? Trump derangement syndrome. I would say. Like where they just can't actually think rationally. I get it. Um, um, not a, not a ton, honestly. I mean, I would say, you know, there's probably a handful, but. But most folks are, I mean, yeah, they might be hardcore supporters, but at the end of the day, they're going to be like, yeah, he's a douchebag, but his policies work and, you know, he's allowed. No, I'm talking about the, the, the liberals for whom, like, they can't even think that, like, if you would vote for Trump, you're obviously a Nazi, basically, people that think that. I don't know. I, I don't. I don't associate with folks like that. I mean, I, I probably know a few, but I don't, I don't, I don't, yeah. And I don't, I do not get into those conversations. I really don't. All right. Yeah. Um, Faith next, if we're going for the last. Yeah. Um, we haven't. Touched on it hardly so far. Yeah. Uh, what's your, uh. I grew up as a Presbyterian going to First Pres. Yeah, right downtown. Yeah, they host a Matthews House Community Life Center. Oh yeah. Thank you. First Pres. Yeah, you bet. Um. The Griffiths, they're there. So. Mike and Annie. Oh yeah. Um. From the Rotary Club. Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. I'm sure there's some others too, but. I'm sure there are. I know they go there. They're. So I grew up going there. It was, it was, I don't know how it is now. It, I mean, it was fairly structured, right? Like we grew up, you know, got to dress nice. You got to be there, you got to go to Sunday school. You got to do this. Um I'm thankful for that, looking back, um, we're not overly, um, your church, family, folks, our family. Yeah. Your wife, yourself. Yep. Yep. Um, uh, we want to be, I mean, we're, we're very aspirational. We're very, um, faith driven. Yeah. Right. I would say. Um, and we talk about it, you know, often, and, um, Um, you know, try to make that the center as much as you can kind of, and, and should do it more obviously. At a different church than that? Or that church still? Nope. No, no church. I wouldn't say that we affiliate with any church. All right. So you haven't been to services, no Christmas, no Easter? Well, yeah, we'll do Christmas, Easter, and we'll go, you know, we'll go to Timberline or we'll go to, um, we'll go to church with my brother and you know, his family. Gotcha, gotcha. They go to Mill City. Um, which is great. And, and I love it personally. Like I, I love going to any more. I love hearing a message, right? I don't want to hear, I don't, I'm not there for the singing and the stuff and the, no, no, I don't, all the rest of that. I don't want any of that, so I just want you just plug in a good podcast. I, with some good teaching and good like message, but I'd like to be there in person. Right. So. Right, right. You know, I don't mind that stuff, but I could, yeah, I could. Well, I mean, a lot of churches and Timberline being one of'em, like I just go for the band. Yeah. Shit. Yeah. Yeah. They're awesome. right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and I can see that, unfortunately, I, I, I'm, I'm kidding about that. But yeah, like, unfortunately, that's. Part of some things is the show. Yep. Yep, for sure. Okay. And It, you know, it's, um, Older your kids now? Twelve and eight. Okay. Yeah. So, and part of the reason why we didn't get kind of deep into a church, I think, and we started, you know, going back when we were first married and even before that, um, we were going to church down here. Um. Grace Church, which is, used to be, now it's like, Kevin Simmons, Mountain View, yeah Kevin Simmons was there, I've known him forever, yeah he's great, he's great, um, yeah, I'm part of the crossing, which is part of the Mountain View, and that was their OG location, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, perfect, yeah, so I used to go to that church, literally like 2002, 2003, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, no, we've really enjoyed it. It, I think when we had kids, you know, when they were young, or at least when our son was young, it was, you know, more and more difficult to go. And then, um, and then we tried to go kind of early on in his younger years, I would say, you know, between four and eight or whatever. Um, he just really didn't like it. And so we didn't want him to, and I get it, like, I didn't like going to church when I was a kid either, but, um, Now he's a 12 year old now? He's 12, yeah. And then, um, and an 8 year old too. An 8 year old girl, yeah. So, so do they have any experience? Like, aside from like Christmas and Easter with brother sister stuff, or do you guys pay a little attention at home? Oh yeah, we, we pay attention at home there. Grandparents are good about it and, and we try to be at home and, Yeah. Yeah. You know, we just try to instill the the right way to live yeah like so my sense is you haven't really Rejected faith. Oh, no, absolutely not. Not at all, but you haven't really Been intentional about building a faith community. Fair point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright. Um, and, and I don't know, it's kind of like one of the, one of the things, this is gonna sound really bad. I hope so. Um, hope that's what good means. The ratings, hope no. One of the things that's tough is, is going to, going to church and like doing a, a church, get together a barbecue after, gotta go make small talk with all these people and stuff. I don't. I don't stay in touch with the friends that I have, right? And, and, and in some cases, I feel badly about that, right? Like, I want to be close with the people I want to be close with. I don't want to go, and it's not that I don't want to be friends. Like, don't get me wrong. Like I, I want to be friends, but. I don't, I'd rather spend my time like, you know, with friends that I've known for 25 years that I don't get to see very often, you know what I mean? And I don't do that enough. I'm already under engaging with them. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And, and so that's always a tough thing. I think that's a really challenging thing is like, especially for people that are, you know, Not currently engaged in a church community. Yeah. To get engaged and then like, Okay, now I have to make room in my life for one more thing. Something else, yeah. And, I mean, to be real about it, Jill and I, So, so, we're, this is, uh, I'll, I probably shouldn't talk about this either, but we're part of this, this thing called, uh, I forget even what it's called, but Samaritan's Ministry or something, is like our health co op, you know, and for me and Jill, it's six or something hundred dollars a month, and sure, but they'll, if you need a heart transplant, like people, Christians from all across the country will send you checks until you're made whole. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, but part of it, part of the requirement is that you have to be part of a life group with your church. And I'm great friends with the life group leader that we've been to, like, Four times, six times maybe in the last year. Yeah. You know, we just, we're busy. Jill's busy. Loco's busy. Sunday afternoon. And technically we need to have Matt sign off on the fact that we're an active part of his life group, but we haven't been. Yeah. Yeah. And so I get it. Yeah. I guess is what I would say more than anything. And as long as you're being intentional about what is real, especially in a world where. Did you say you're homeschooled? No. You're homeschooled. No. So especially in a world where what is real is so much under question, I think being a part of a community can really help reinforce, you know, just to put a little layer of insurance against having a they them conversation with your daughter all of a sudden. That you don't expect. Yeah, no, that's, that's fair. That is fair. And um, luckily, so we live in Windsor. Oh, that's, and yeah, it matters. And, and the kids, you know, our kids go to public school. Um, and I we're really thankful for that and the community there and yeah. You know, kinda the mindset. They're 20 years behind the, the. Yeah. Mind virus. Yes. Hopefully. Fair. Yeah. Absolutely. So. And so it's, um, it, it feels, you know, good over there. So far so good. But there's still, there's still some of that shit. Well sure. Like in middle school or whatever. That's how it goes. Yeah. So that was faith. Yeah. Um, oh, and by the way, Windsor Community Church is one of the branches of our church. Okay. They lead over on the east side. Where is that? I feel like we've looked at it. Automation way. Okay. Yeah. Or somewhere right over there. Yeah. Yeah. In innovation, I don't know, kind of on the east side. But yeah, it's like a nice job. I, uh, I had somebody that had something crawling on him during the podcast yet. I was like, I just didn't want to break it. Um, but, but anyway, we're, so we're like a, We're like Presbyterians, but with no dogma and no structure to speak of and show up in your short pants and your t shirt if you want to Yeah, but still kind of the look like on the Calvinist versus not sure in that Presbyterian space and it's It's Windsor, right? Well, the Mountain View was that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so Mountain View was the base route. Uh huh. Um, and now there's, you know, a couple, few churches in North Carolina, and a handful around Northern Colorado, and ten in Czechoslovakia. But what's the one in Windsor called? Uh, Windsor Community Church. Community Church. Yep. And that was actually, I think that was actually, no, that was planted by, Mountain view. Okay. Um, and then there was a Greeley church for a while, and then our church, The Crossing, was planted by the Greeley church that has since dissolved. Okay. So, but we're still part of that network. They share pastor training and stuff. Sure. Yeah. And they, you know, they have that, I don't know if you know, but they have that model where there isn't one pastor. Oh, yeah. There's like three, And then a couple of lay pastors usually. So there's not like one person that the whole church thinks of as like this, the dude guy. Yeah. And if he gets caught, the one that talks to God into the church, secretary Inc, it's like ruins the whole church, right? Like that's, yeah, people are just so corruptible. And so that's part of why I love my church is because they have peers. Like here's two other pastors that are paid and two other lay pastors that can call you out when you're being a jerk. Dipshit. Right. Right. You know, or getting too egotistical. Yeah. You know, cause ego's a hard thing to battle. Yeah. When everybody thinks you're cool. For sure. For sure. I mean. Yeah, I know. Look at me. You're obviously struggling. I struggle. Ha ha ha ha ha. Let's talk about your family. Yeah. Uh, you, uh, your wife, why did she say yes to the second invite for a date? Good question. Um, no, we, we've known each other since, um, junior high. Oh, okay. We both went to Blevins. All right. Um, and we both went to Rocky Mountain. Nice. Um, and we weren't, we actually tried to date. And kind of senior year of high school, but we were on separate paths, right? Like she was on the good path and I was on the other path. You were a bad kid and she was a good kid. I wasn't a bad kid, but I just wasn't on the path yet. I had found a path. It wasn't that bad. I actually had a couple of girls in college that were like. I really like you, Kurt, but you're a little too libertarian in your behavior for my mom to want to meet you. Yeah, fair, fair. Um, so we tried and we were like, nah, this isn't gonna work. And then, um, she went to CU and I stayed in Fort Collins and went to CSU and then we tried a year later. Um, and that was very short lived and we're like, yeah, no, nothing's changed. In fact, um, me and a buddy had, well, what would she have said to her girlfriend after that was over that second chapter? Um, you know, Like, what were her criticisms about you? Probably the same thing, like, just, like, eh, he hasn't changed, and we're not, you know, like, I was still partying and whatever, and And then all of a sudden you strike it rich and start making 150 grand a year in the mortgage wholesale world. It was, uh And she didn't give a shit about that either. No, she did not. The opposite. She's, um Yeah. No, honestly, it was, so we tried that, um, you know, spring semester, freshman year, and then didn't see each other again for, and then ran into each other randomly at what was then Manos, which is now Colindale. Yeah. Or now, uh, pots. Yeah. Yeah. And we were there. What's that? Scott Manning. Um, It was Manning, was the last name, I think it was. I don't know, I just know him by Manno. Yeah, yeah, no, anyway. He's still around, but now Kevin Cheesley owns it. Okay. Um, so, um. Yeah, but it was Manno because of like a key employee that had been around the POTS organization forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. Um, so we were there drinking before a softball game, right? And this is nine years later. So we would have been, we would have been late twenties. And yeah, and I lean over to a buddy of mine, um, Matt, different Matt, um, the one who started the mortgage thing together. Um, cause he and I went to, grew up together, went to elementary, you know, junior high school, um, and I was like, there's Sarah and she's drinking. Yeah. I'm going to go talk to her. And she was there on like an FSC kind of thing. And so we went to lunch for like six months and then like once a month, like, no, like once, probably once a week, maybe every kind of thing. All right. Um, you were like slowly working your way back to her good graces in some ways. Um, and then, and this was in my, you know, mid, late twenties. And right. Um, why was she still on the market? Um, good question. That's a direct question. Yeah, good question. Um, you know, she had, she had traveled around. I think she had, you know, she had dated a number of, a number of guys and, and never really, you know, had enough of a connection, I think. Um, but. You know, she had traveled, she, she left when she got out of school. She was filling her cup, kind of was experienced. Moved to New York City and taught in the Bronx and, you know, came back and taught here. And when she was in school, she did a semester abroad in Argentina and all this stuff. So she had all this like life experience, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, I'm stuck in, you know, Fort Collins, like, Drinking with my high school buddies, um, still. Bumping your way through this, uh, like, Not succeeding, uh, venture. Like, that's an interesting thing to me, is like, She kind of caught me. Recaught you right. As you went into one of your least successful, yeah. You were like a loser. When she, yeah, no offense. Um, yeah, she caught me when I was a loser and, um, and, and. I mean, it, and it was great. And she's, she's just such an awesome person. Like, yeah, I can't, I can't say it. Sorry to grill you on that whole topic. No, you're, you're good. Um, but it was an interesting thing to me as I went through there. So yeah, so then we got married, um, kind of, um, we got married in oh nine. Um, so we were 30, you know, I guess 30. Thirty, thirty one. So, yeah. And your kids, you said, are eight and twelve now? Yep. Um, we do a one word description of the children here. Do you, do you remember that part of the, uh, email? I do. I do. Do you have a word for each of your children? Um. And a name, age, and word. Yeah, little, you can expand from there. Yeah, so Emmett is my oldest. Um. I like that name, by the way. And, thank you. Solid. And, um. I personally like to say that he's named after Dr. Emmett Brown from Back to the Future. I like it. I like it. A hero. And actually, yeah, my favorite movie. I like it. But actually it was, we were going back and forth and names and came across it and, you know, it just clicked. Anyway, um, His word would be intuitive, probably. Yeah, yeah. Um, he has always had that. Yeah. Um, he's, he's very likable, very social. You've developed those things, but it's more intuitive for him even still. He is intuitive himself. Yeah, yeah. Like, um, but he is, you know, he's, he's always, Older than he's, he's, uh, emotionally, a 25 year old, 12 year old older gets it. And yeah, he's, he's great. Cool. He's great. I dig it. And Daphne is our girl and she's eight. Is it wrong that I think about Scooby Doo? Nope. Um, but, but she's named after Daphne from Frasier. Oh, sure. Yeah. So, um, and that's legit. But. So Daphne, what would be the word? Um, man, I would say social, but I don't think that does it justice. She is butterfly. Yeah. She's just, she loves everybody. She's very, um, Emotionally connected to every situation. She gets along with everybody. She's very kind. I mean, that's why people love you is because you love them a lot of times, you know, yeah, she's, she's something I'd like it. So she's like a second grader or something. Yeah. She's in third grade, third grader. Um, anything more you want to say nice about, sorry, what was your wife's name? Sarah, Sarah with an H no H H. Okay. She's an H. Always better. Um, You know, no, I mean, she's, she's done so much. She's, you know, she, she was a teacher for a long time. Um, she stayed home with, um, you know, from kind of the, after Emmett's, Emmett's first year she taught and then she stayed home, you know, after that. So I'm very thankful for, for that opportunity. And then she went back to school. back to school, um, a year ago, I guess. Kind of teaching when the kids are away. Yeah. Well, she's, she actually went back as a librarian. Oh. Which she always wanted to do. Oh, that's fun. Um, which is great. So she's a librarian at an elementary school, new elementary school in Johnstown. I dig it. Which is great. Yeah, she loves it. Um, anything else you want to say either about kids? Your folks, her folks, family in general, the importance of it. You know, her folks are here. Um, I mean, I think I'd, I'd, uh, well, I certainly want to mention that part of the family, you know, still family. So she grew up local as well, obviously Blevins and Rocky and whatever. Yep. Yep. Lobo nation. Um, that's right. That's right. So I, I did a little talk thing one time for, it was like, we're four-Way test ethics kind of stuff. Rotary Club involved. Okay. Yep. But also like career stuff. Mm-Hmm. And, uh, they gave all of us volunteers for that thing, like a, a, a rocks glass like a whiskey. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. That was their thanks for That's great. Coming and volunteering for the day. Yeah. And they're like, as, as I passed it out, I was like, this is a nice, looks like a whiskey glass kind of. Because it was like, well, we're saying it's a water glass. And I was like. Well, I'm going to use it for my whiskey. You should use that. I, well, I have it at my house. I should probably. Uh, but anyway, that was my, one of my experience with Lobo Nation. Yeah. Lobo Nation for sure. Um, so your in laws been around? So they live here in Fort Collins. They've been around for a long time. Um, they, you know, they raised two great girls. They're, they're amazing people. Um, they've got a great friend network and, um, they're just, they're really Plugged in, which is great. We're very thankful. They're close with, you know, us and the grandkids and Sarah's sister. She has a sister that lives in Littleton with her husband. And they got young kids too. They're two kids. Yeah. They have two boys that are older than ours, but, um, yeah, so it was less. Yeah. Yeah. So it was great. Yeah. Um, finally the loco experience. Oh yeah. Your crazy experience that you'd like to share with our listeners. So it's probably, I had to think about this, but it's. It's probably less about me and more just crazy, but it plays into the family and the faith thing. And it, and it's got a couple of parts. All right. So I'll share, you know, kind of the big picture and hope my wife doesn't get pissed about it, but I don't think she will. Um, so before we have, so we lost, uh, we lost a baby before Emmett was born. Okay. Right? And, and we lost one after he was born before death. Dylan, I miscarried a couple of times too. Yeah. So, um, but then we finally got pregnant with, with Emmett and, um, and you know, he was, he was probably three, you know, two late twos, three at this time. And we were pregnant with death and, uh, or no, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm going to back up because I gotta go, I gotta go to the other one. Um, So, Oh, wait a sec. You said you miscarried between the two. I'm getting all, I'm getting all confused. Yeah, which we did. Um, but okay. So, so fast forward Emmett's three. Okay. And I had gone to the grocery store and, or I went to Home Depot. Actually, I came back and, um, we didn't know that we could get pregnant with Daphne at the time. Right. So. Um, so I'd come back, we weren't expecting that, um, and Sarah's standing in the driveway and she's, you know, crying and I pull up and I'm like, what's wrong? And she says, I'm pregnant. I was like, what? I, you know, we didn't think it could happen, you know, this soon or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, meanwhile, Emmett had been napping inside, he was sleeping and she hadn't. Told anybody yet, right? She told me so when I got home and then, um, so then later that night, we're going to her parents for dinner and she's sitting on the stairs with Emmett and tying his shoes. And this is after, obviously he's up from his nap. And, um, this is, you know, a couple hours later, whatever. And, um, he looks up at her and he goes, I love you, mama. And she said, thanks, buddy. I love you too. And he goes, and I love the baby in your tummy. Oh. Yeah, so that's the start of the intuitive thing, right? Right. This is kind of semi personal But like was it like so close behind a previous miscarriage or something like that? Yeah, I just didn't think she could yeah She had that she you know, we had went and Yeah, we had gone to see a fertility doc and the whole thing. Yeah, I went through some of that too. So, the odds weren't strong. Well, and, and, And you weren't talking about it at least until 10 weeks or something with anybody. weren't, um, we were another, we were probably, um, uh, maybe a month, six weeks early from when we thought we might be able to get pregnant kind of thing. Wow, I don't know, what an interesting thing. Um, but the fact that he was sleeping, Yeah. And she told me, and then he just knew this. You don't think he just heard you talking or there's no chance because it was on the driveway, right? Like, um, so that was that well, then a follow up one. So fast forward, like seven months and, um, and she's, you know, big pregnant and the, in the kitchen and, um, And he's playing around, you know, with whatever, pots and pans or something, and are dancing, and, um, And he says something to her like, Oh, my sister's in heaven. And, and, or, yeah, my sister's in heaven. And, and Sarah said, because at this point we knew Daph was going to be a girl. And she said, no, buddy, your sister's in mama's tummy. And he said, not that sister, my other sister. Wow, dang. Yeah, he's gonna be like I see dead people kind of style going on with it's crazy. Hopefully not Yeah, yeah, I don't want it to well anyway But the the fact like that stuff alone like you yeah until you experience it Yeah, yeah Well, it's kind of like faith. Once you see providence at work in your life, you can just kind of be on board. Absolutely. Well, uh, I would say, um, your son's a prophet, probably. He sees things more clearly. Do you know that about, about that definition? No. Like a prophet isn't really a person that predicts the future. It's a person that sees things clearly. Interesting. Like, for like Isaiah, the prophet and whatever, it's not that he predicted Jesus coming and different things that are prophetic. He saw things clearly the whole time. And the ability to predict the future is just so that you can identify them as having that talent. And, and I, I describe myself occasionally as a prophet as well. I just, I see some things more clearly than other people and sounds like your son is thick with that. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. But that's crazy. It's crazy to me. Like, it's not crazy. Like, well, yeah, cause you're not a prophet, you know, but it's just like, it's kind of one of those, like, that's, that's a, well, for some people listening to this, they'll be like, Kerberos is crazy too. He's talking about prophets, modern day shit. Find Aaron at Citadeladvisorygroup. com. Citadeladvisory. com, yeah. Advisory. com. And uh, especially if you have or know somebody with a middle market company. Yeah, appreciate it. Or just need some direction. Yeah, just talk to me. Yeah. Yeah. Um, thanks for being here. Thank you, appreciate it. It's been a pretty fun conversation. It's been great. Alright, dig it. Bye.
