EXPERIENCE 189 | Ham & Eggs were $1.40 when we started! - Journey from a Greasy Spoon Diner to a Fort Collins Breakfast (& Lunch) Institution - A Conversation with John Arnolfo, Former Owner/Operator of Silver Grill Cafe

John Arnolfo operated the Silver Grill Cafe for 42 years, and found his exit plan through my guest on Episode 143, Alan Jantzen.  John and partner Mike Gress purchased Silver Grill on Valentines Day of 1979 as an unheated one-room diner.  The business had been established by Leonidas “Flossie” Widger in 1933, and mostly served the blue collar workforce of early downtown Fort Collins.  Though the partners grew the business quickly, it remained too small an enterprise to support a pair of households, and Mike departed for other opportunities after only a few seasons.  

In the years to follow, John slowly grew the footprint of the restaurant - leasing and eventually acquiring vacant buildings to the west of the original location - and grew Silver Grill the 5-adjacent-units high-volume enterprise (& Fort Collins Icon) it is today.  John shares the story of how cinnamon rolls changed his business and client mix, and how the stars lined up for Alan and Jackie Jantzen to become the new operators in 2021.  As also shared by Alan, an introduction from their mutual banker turned into a conversation and then a transaction and now an enduring friendship.  

John needs no introduction in the world of Fort Collins restaurants, and I’m proud to share both the business journey and the sparkling personality behind the brand. We talk about the evolution of the restaurant industry, challenges and opportunities during covid, saltwater fly fishing, the gradual disappearance of the raisin cinnamon roll, and much more - so I hope you’ll tune in and enjoy my conversation with John Arnolfo.  

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Transcript

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John Arnolfo operated the Silver Grill Café for 42 years and found his exit plan through my guest on episode 143, Alan Jansen. John and partner Mike Gress purchased Silver Grill on Valentine's Day 1979 as an unheated one room diner. The business had been established by Leonidas Flossie Widger in 1933 and mostly served the blue collar workforce of early downtown Fort Collins. Though the partners grew the business quickly, it remained too small an enterprise to support a pair of households, and Mike departed for other opportunities after only a few seasons. In the years to follow, John slowly grew the footprint of the restaurant, leasing and eventually acquiring vacant buildings to the west of the original location, five adjacent unit, high volume enterprise and Fort Collins icon it is today. John shares the story of how Cinnamon Rolls changed his business and client mix and how the stars lined up for Alan and Jackie Jansen to become the new operators in 2021. As also shared by Alan, an introduction from their mutual banker turned into a conversation, and then a transaction, and now an enduring friendship. John needs no introduction in the world of Fort Collins restaurants, and I'm proud to share both the business journey and the sparkling personality behind the brand. We talk about the evolution of the restaurant industry, challenges and opportunities during COVID. Saltwater fly fishing, the gradual disappearance of the cinnamon raisin roll, and much more. So I hope you'll tune in and enjoy my conversation with John Arnolfo. welcome back to the Loco Experience Podcast. I'm honored today to be joined by John Arnolfo, the former owner and operator of the Silver Grill in Fort Collins, about a year after Alan Jansen came on the show to talk about becoming the new owner of the Silver Grill. So John, what have you been up to the last two and a little bit years? Well, Kurt, thanks for having me. For sure. Thanks for being on. It's been two and a half years now that I've been retired. Retirement is, is a wonderful thing to look forward to. Before I retired, I thought, geez, I'm going to have lots of things to do because I have a lot of hobbies. I'm, I'm, I'm active. I'd like to do a lot of things. But still, there's times that you want to fill your day. Yeah, yeah. Uh, probably the past two and a half years, I've spent it, uh, I have hobbies, I, I live on a golf course, so I, I like to golf, I'm a couple days a week, I'm, I'm not an avid golfer where I'm gonna golf four or five days a week, but two or three days a week. Okay. Uh, love to fly fish, so I've, That's a good time kill there. Yeah, that's a summertime, uh, sport, I, But you can spend four or six hours at it. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, I've enjoyed traveling, uh, Montana, uh, Wyoming, Idaho, and obviously here in Colorado. So that's my summertime. Uh, I also like to cycle. So that fills my time. So wintertime's now. I'm finding that I like a little warmer weather. The beaches are more common than they used to be when you were restauranting? Yeah. So now I, I've changed my fly fishing to saltwater fly fishing, uh, down in Mexico, Belize, Caribbean. And so I'll do a trip or two down there during the winter time. Is that like off of like charter boats or you just go places and kind of go to lagoons and stuff? Generally, we'll, we'll pick a lodge and the lodge will be all inclusive and. Uh, quite often, quite rustic. I mean, they're fishing lodges, and we'll go out. with guides, and, uh, we'll go on a ponga that is, they'll have a motor to motorist to different spots, and then, then they'll pull through the waters. And what's interesting, especially the saltwater fly fishing. That's what's kind of marshy, is kind of what I was imagining. You said they're pulling. No, it's not marshy. Okay. It's, it's out, out in very shallow bays. Okay, okay. And especially in, uh, whether it's southern Mexico or, or Belize, uh, you're pull, pulling and, uh, you're, You're traveling to spots, and then where you fish, it might be anywhere from three feet deep to four feet deep. Okay. And so, you're either fishing off the boat, you've got a, um, you've got a guide that's standing on a platform in the back, and he's sighting the, Um, the fish for you. Okay. Uh, there's times we get off the boat. Yeah. You got big hip waders or you just get up, you got, you're just like in the water. You know, and that, and that really is the big difference when you're fishing in Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, uh, if it's a warm summer day. You're wet waiting. Uh, if it's a little bit cooler, you've got waiters. When you're in Mexico, Belize, the Caribbean It's always nice. It's warm. I mean, sometimes it's bathtub warm. It's 80, 85 degrees. So, uh, yeah. You've got little rubber booties and, and you're in shorts. So it's, it's a very different experience. Uh And what are you trying to catch? Is it like barracudas and different things? Or It's, it's all, uh, it's all Sport fishing, catch and release. Primarily you're, you're fishing for a bonefish, a tarpon, or the big prize is a permit and a permit spelled as, as it sounds, permit P E R M I S I N T. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's a big, big round fish. They can get, oh, they're three to five pounds up to 35 pounds, but they're, but they're known for very, very difficult to catch. They have, they're a flat fish and they have eyes. Eyes on the side of their, uh, of their head. So it's like a flounder style almost. But they swim upright and they have very keen sense of sight. So it's, it's a, it's a real treat to be able to hook one and then land one. Cause they're very difficult though. They'll take the line and they'll. And they can take, take your line out 40, 40 feet, 50 feet, 60 feet, 90 feet, and then you try to land them. So, uh, that's, that's real fun. But along with that, you get the whole Southern experience, Southern meaning south of the border. You're, it's in warm Caribbean waters, and at night you're eating fresh fish and you're talking fish stories. And usually it's a, Anywhere from five to seven day. You said it's all catch and release, but all catch and release. But they have fish, other fish, whatever. Uh, it feels sad to let all those good fish go away. Well, you know, down South, when I say South down in Latin America, the Caribbean, that's their income, right? That that's their protected injury industry for them. So they want to protect the fish. Right. Right. And even when I'm in Colorado, Montana, or anywhere in the Rockies, it's all catch and release. For me, it's, it's the hunt. Yeah, yeah. It's the thrill of the hunt. And here again, for me, it's releasing the fish. So the fish that they're feeding you are, like, commercial available fish. Oh, trout. Absolutely. You could, you can get a great trout from King's Supers. Right, right. Exactly. Well, that sounds super fun. A very different experience than anything I've, uh, I went to Florida last spring and we, uh, took a look, a shallow water boat into some of the, the mangrove swamps and different things for off the bow fishing and looking for, uh, fish. Probably redfish. Yep, yep, that was the big prize there. And some other things too. I can't remember. There was some little thing that always grabbed your bait and left you hanging. But anyway, fishing's quite a, there's so many different ways of fishing. There are so many ways. And, and, and fly fishing for me is a real zen experience. And obviously when you're on a boat, there's, there's, two, two clients and a guide. So you're, you know, there's three of us, but when you're in the river waiting by yourself, it's, it's a real Zen thing. It's very peaceful. And it's you against the fish. I, I've always said, it's, it satisfies the man's need, a man's need, And for me, I'd like the hunting, but I'd like the releasing as well. Fair enough. Um, so staying busy enough, but also finding that, uh, staying busy isn't, I think I heard that implied. Maybe staying busy isn't as easy as you thought it might be? No, it's not. I mean, you know, those are just trips, uh, every day. Every day on an everyday basis, I'll, I'll wake up in the morning and it's, it's usually a cup of coffee, you get on the computer, you watch a little bit of news and then it's, what do you, what do you do for the rest of the, what do you do for the rest of the day? Uh, you, and you help, you start finding yourself. Yeah. And what drives you, what motivates you? For me, I'm, I've been in the silver grill restaurant business. I owned it for 42 years. Extremely social. So I, I gain energy out of being around people. So it sounds silly, but it, it might be simple as driving to the grocery store and interacting with people and being in the business I was in. It's silver grill. I know a lot of people. Do you go to the silver grill regularly? I do Alan and I have. I've created a great friendship, and so I'll go in two or three times a week. He really, he's a very experienced man. He really doesn't need my experience anymore or expertise or advice, but we go in and we just visit. Well, and I bet you see a lot of people you know in there. And I still, it's getting less and less. Not just staff, but all the regulars too and stuff, right? Yeah, I don't know. You know, the silver grill has always been a real social experience for the customers, uh, pre COVID, especially that's the vast majority of the time I owned it. On a Saturday, Sunday, we always had a waiting line that started at 8 o'clock, and the wait might be 45 minutes, might be an hour, might, might be 30 minutes. But during that time, people would visit. Yeah, yeah. They would stand in the lobby, either with a cup of coffee or a Bloody Mary. And what was interesting, they made friends. Yeah. And so, they would have silver girlfriends where they'd meet every, every day. Sunday, for instance, at 10 o'clock and, and meet for breakfast. Yeah. And so that was always kind of fun. That is neat. That is neat. I, uh, upcoming soon, I've got a podcast guest and they've co written or pair of guests and they've co written a book called party in the front. And it's about like intentionally hanging out in your front yard so you can like meet your neighbors and people walking by and stuff like that, you know, and what you're talking about is, is an avenue of people meeting people where they wouldn't. All the time do so. Yeah. Yeah. And that's real interesting. And I think in today's culture, we've kind of, we've kind of Oh yeah, most neighborhoods are like, I park in my garage, and then I go from my garage door into my house door, and I carry my groceries in that way, and I know my neighbor's name is Bob, and he's some kind of an engineer. You know, an ant. You know, or something. Kurt, I've been in Fort Collins now 55 years. Hmm. And, of course, my early years was going to college, and I jumped from dorm rooms to apartments, and so I lived in many, many areas, and then I, I owned homes, and I was, uh, at one point married. I have two sons, and, uh, we had moved into a neighborhood in, uh, Not know anybody. And so ten years ago, I moved up to the Fort Collins Country Club. Okay. Not sure if I wanted to be a country club guy. I was a member. But it's turned out to be just a great experience. Oh, yeah. And, and, and so. Well, there's so many things to do there now compared to when I was, I was a member there. When I moved back to Fort Collins in oh seven, uh, the bank owned a membership. Yeah. And so I went there for a few years. Um, and it wasn't nearly as cool as it is now. Like they really rehabilitated the operation and it's really, it's really turned out to be just a real special place. And, and I, I didn't think it would, uh, end up quite frankly that way. Yeah, yeah. Fair, fair enough. And so, yeah. And so I, it's important for me to keep my social contacts. Yeah. And that's what, one way to do it and. And I'm always, actually I talked to my sister this morning and she says, well you're so popular, you're over busy, you're always so busy. I said, it's not that I'm so popular, it's that I make an effort. To stay busy. Totally. Totally. Well, and make an effort. We had our neighbors over our we've got kind of two favorite our next door neighbors And then one three doors down we've kind of been friends over the last three four years and we hadn't hung out all summer And so I smoked a brisket and made a big dinner and had those other two couples over and it was just Probably one of all of our favorite times all summer, but you got it like Try. You gotta make things happen. And that was a point I wanted to make. So when I moved into the country club home, it was an older home, and it needed renovation. And so it took me, no, almost, not quite a year. And of course, everybody was passing by in their golf carts and waiting and wondering. And so, I thought, well, I'll throw a big 4th of July party. And I invited all my neighbors and country club members. And that was a way for me to break out of that mold where You don't know anybody. So I got to know all my neighbors and it's really proved to be a really fun thing for me. Yeah. Um, can we go back to like the seasons leading up to, uh, retirement and, and selling the silver grill, like you, you mentioned before we got started that you weren't really entertaining. That necessarily, but you also weren't not, and then all of a sudden a kind of a series of events kind of came together. Well, I, I, I recognized very early on that there's really two aspects to a small business, and One is you, you obviously own the business and it's very valuable. I always put a lot of value in owning, owning the building. So I felt like that I needed to spend my time at the silver grill for whatever years I had in building the business and creating an income for myself. Realizing that a lot of entrepreneurs at the end of the road, when they're ready to retire, They don't have a plan. And they have a difficult time selling the business if they can sell it at all. So. I did buy the buildings and the main motivation was to secure my future. Sure. Yeah, that's a retirement plan in itself. But it was also, uh, they were, they're now 125 year old buildings. Right. And they need to remodel them for a restaurant. It needed new plumbing. It needed new electrical. All the things. It needed, it needed everything. So, I just wasn't interested in. putting money into a building that it didn't own. So very, very fortunate. Um, I would say 20 years ago, I was always looking, as long as 20 years ago, I was looking for a manager that could Oh, somebody internally that Someone that And I had potential for some, and, uh, obviously some, some were very good, but their lifestyle changed. And so, uh, I never was successful. And I always had a goal of retiring by the time I was 65 or 70. Okay. Okay. So now I'm, I'm, I'm probably 67 years old, several years ago. And. COVID hits. Right. And how fun was that? You know, certainly it was stressful, but I, I've got to tell you the silver gorilla, after all the years that I was in business, we had a tremendous reputation and tremendous following. So my goal was to stay open, right? Even though it was not make, none of us made money during, during COVID, but it was important that we, we stayed open just for, just for the Yeah. Just for the public. Yeah. Uh, I, I had the tremendous, uh, benefit. I had a bank that would support me. I owned the buildings, which I, I, I knew a worst case scenario. A couple million dollars worth of equity in there for something, I don't know what the, I don't know what, is it 7, 000 square feet of downtown real estate? We got no, 6, 000 square feet and we've got a parking lot. So, you know, I, I take a big piggy bank to buy it off. Yeah. Yeah. So I always knew if the business wasn't going to survive, I would have the real estate. And then as we were getting through COVID, we were closed on March 17th of, I believe 2020. Okay. It was. We were closed twice by the government, as everybody else was, and we were closed twice by outbreaks. Oh. And so the first year we were closed 191 days. Oh wow. Like staff outbreaks and things like that more. Staff, staff outbreaks. Right, and you're like, we just don't have enough people to really safely operate this place. Yeah. Oh, and well, the health department, uh, they quarantined, uh, uh, they quarantined my whole kitchen staff. Like one person got sick. It was like anybody that was within six feet of that person for a week. Quarantined. Also was quarantined. Yeah. So yeah, I figured about how, you know, I had a, a staff of one, you know, and later too, and yes, I had, we had a lot of zoom meetings and different things, but my lifestyle personally wasn't. Nearly as impacted as a lot of people, which was, you know, a blessing. So, we worked through it, and the government, I have to compliment the government. They did react fast, and they had the payroll protection plan, which As long as you were with a local bank, and not with a national bank. Right. Well, uh Almost nobody got any money from Wells Fargo or Chase just for what it's worth. Well, locally, at least. I'm a very, very local guy, as you know. And yes, uh, I'll tout Bank of Colorado. I hope I can say that. Sure. Okay. Well, as long as you're saying nice things, I'm pretty sure nobody's going to get mad. There were wonderful supporters of mine. And, uh, so when the COVID, uh, broke out, uh, coincidentally, I had planned a Cause there needed some, there was some deferred maintenance and so we were going to do it in September of, uh, 2020 the outbreak and they closed this down March 17th. And then I used that time to remodel the silver. And it was just, it was new floorings, new cabinets, new things like that. But, but it was very extensive. Well, and there was a lot of people looking for something to do at that time. It was easy for me to get a contractor. Here again, a lot of luck involved, I had plans already drawn up, and I was able to find a contractor within a week. Well, and uh, your neighbor down the street, Penrose, was in a similar circumstance. They lucked into, like, they opened basically when you could reopen. Well, and that's, uh, it's interesting you bring up Penrose because, The contractor that I hired, Beacon, who was also great, they were just finishing up Penrose. Oh, is that right? And they said, you know, we've got a crew downtown there across the street. We'll move them right over. So, uh, we were closed for about two months and did the, uh, then did the remodel, reopened and then closed three more times. So at that point, you know, my, my thought was, It's going to take a year or two to get out of COVID. Yep. Yep. And then probably my thought was to put the silver grill on, on, on the market. Okay. Uh, a year later, which would be, would put me past my, my goal of 70 a return back to decent profitability so that you could sell it for the right price. I really, yeah, I really had to feel like I had to get it back. But coincidentally, um, as we talked about, it was March of 2021. And I had a phone call from Alan Jansen, and he's a local restaurant man that I know you're familiar with. Yeah, we've told this story, yeah, 30 years with Hot Corner. 30 years experience with Hot Corner. Uh, actually, our banker, Rex Smithgall, from Bank of Colorado, knew Alan very well, knew me very well, and suggested that maybe we get together. So my, my, I love the story when Alan calls. Do you think Steve Taylor is going to be mad at Rex Smithgall when he hears about that conversation? You know, I, I, you know, we're all business people. Right. Right. And everything was very up front. Yeah. And I don't know specifically the conversations that Well, Rex was right. Like, Silver Girl, I actually coincidentally just had lunch with Alan today. Yeah. Uh, he said he was gonna harass you and make you scared about coming in. All the, all the scary questions I was gonna ask. But, um, you know, he could have just played small ball after a long career. Um, and because he's a very debt averse kind of guy and stuff, but he needed a bigger machine like the silver grill afforded to be able to make a real difference, you know, at this stage in his career. So he wanted, yeah, he wanted something that was, that was his own. And I love the story. We met at Lucille's and we said, well, I think this deserves another conversation. Uh, we met at maybe a week later and I shared with him all my financials. And I said, I gave him five years. I said, here's the good, the bad and the ugly. Cause you know, it was not all that great during, I mean, it was big money. Found some red ink and COVID nation. But what I love about it, he came back and he said, well, here's what I think it's worth. And he gave me a range of a price. And I said, Alan, I said, you know what? The high is a little high. The low is a little, a little low, but Right in the middles where I'm thinking. And he said, done deal. We shook hands within a week. We worked out a couple of the finer details amongst ourselves. Had a handshake deal in two weeks. And then, of course, we, we got, uh, attorneys involved that had to formally put it all together. Right, right. But we, uh, literally closed it in, in about three months. You know, I think one of the things that's interesting is, I mean, you've mentioned that you've targeted managers in the past that might be your succession plan or whatever, but as the, as the landlord, the future landlord of the operator of the Silver Grill, like you've got to, your biggest obligation is to make sure you've got a good tenant in there. Oh, absolutely. We're just going to pay the rent every month and run a good operation and maintain the property properly? Yes, and you're exactly right. We've all seen really great businesses that somebody comes in and thinks they have a better idea and it just makes no sense to do that. So early on in our conversations. with Alan, it was Alan, what are your ideas about the restaurant? He goes, he said the exact same thing. Why would I change it? Right. And I was very upfront with him. I said, you know, it needs new blood. It needs new ideas. But you've got to keep the concept of a home style diner and just tweak it. And he's done exactly that. I asked him not to change anything for six months. Yeah, and he didn't. And now he's slowly changing. I mean, to the general public, you, you wouldn't barely notice it, but in any business, but especially in a restaurant, you got to keep up with the times. And, and I'll tell you this, that when I bought the silver grill in 1979, ham and eggs was a dollar 40. Right. Uh, coffee was. 25 cents and ham and cheese sandwich was literally two slices of white bread and American cheese and two slices of Ham and two dill pickles and some chips and that's what it was. And that was 2. 50 Well, it was probably less than that. It was probably 1. 10. Right. But my point is is now you go in You could never sell that sandwich in today's marketplace Right, that's what mom served me in the tractor when I was growing up Yeah. So, so now you go in and you're, you're getting the, the, the full Monty with it, you know, uh, uh, a great sandwich with all the fixings. And so that is my point. You, you have to change and you have to continually change in order to succeed in any business. Yeah. Keep it fresh, you know, 42 years of the same, same thing, but don't change too fast because you're loyalists, you know, like the, the coffee, coffee, Club or a coffee mug club on the wall there or whatever. Isn't that fun? Oh, it's great. Yeah. I kind of want one just to have it there. You know, even if I only, I go in there, maybe, I don't know. Probably once or twice a month. Yeah. You know, cause I got, I got a love, a lot of love to spread around kind of in different places and whatever, but it's a, it's a consistent one. Would that be enough to justify the mug? I don't know. You know, I don't even drink coffee half the time cause I drink my coffee before I go in. It would because it's fun to have that mug. That's right. That's what I was thinking. That's what I was just thinking. I just kind of want a mug even if it doesn't pencil out or whatever. Oh, we have families, we have that, that buy a mug. And maybe their son or daughter going to school. Right. And they'll fly out once a year or twice a year to see their son or daughter. And they've got their mug there. Right. And they love it. And sometimes we have to call them out. It's kind of like, it gets overwhelming. Like my dry cleaner's like, Hey, you dropped some stuff off a year ago. Are you going to pick that up again? Um, so yeah, quick, pretty quick. Transition then, and then like, did you lurk in the corners for a while and make sure he wasn't changing too much, too fast, or were you pretty comfortable just kind of, I was, I was very comfortable out a couple of spies behind to make sure they told you if something was going weird. We had a, we had a, we had a consulting agreement that I would come in and, and, uh, spend so much time and help them with whatever. And it was, uh, gonna be for two years. And after the first year, Alan, Alan said, you know, I'm not sure if I really need much more help. And I said, Alan, you're right. You don't need me anymore. So as a formal agreement, we, we don't have one anymore. Yeah. But, uh, he gives me a lot of accolades, and he invites me in, and not only invites me, but welcomes me in. I've never heard him say anything, uh, negative about you, both in our podcast and subsequent days. So, that's neat. Well, he and Jackie. I can't leave Jackie out. For sure, for sure. She is the best. Just wonderful. Well, and you wouldn't, you wouldn't like him so much if he wasn't taking good care of your baby. Oh God. No. And that could have happened. Yeah. Yeah. That could have happened. But no, he's, and, and I know he's doing well. And as you know, he bought Verne's. Yeah. And so now he's got a corner on the silver grill. We're on the cinnamon roll market. Did you have the cinnamon roll of the month while you were operating or is that something that he's brought in? That's something that he's brought in. I think that's kind of clever just to keep it a little fresh, you know, the, the peach cinnamon rolls and the peach season and it just gives you an opportunity to showcase some things, you know? And that's what I mean by bringing in new blood. I, I didn't want to change anything. I wanted to keep everything as it is. As, as old style as it was, and here's an interesting thing, Kurt. Forty years ago when I started baking, probably 40 percent of our cinnamon rolls were raisin. Oh, really? With raisins. And now, well, we finally stopped making them. They started going down and down and down. You know, we sell about 400 cinnamon rolls a day. And some days more, some days less. Uh, But we were baking eight raisin rolls and we couldn't sell them. That's so funny. Like, like, what do they do with raisins anymore? Or do they just not even make raisins? Like raisin bran. Right. Yeah. I mean, we used to like at grandma's, we would always get little boxes of raisins. Right. And, and even at church, like the, uh, when I was a volunteer classroom instructor or whatever, they would have little boxes. raisin packs for the kids for snacks. I don't think they have them any, I mean, I'm sure people eat raisins, but I think, oh I'm sure they do. And they're great for you, but I think that in the case, the change of taste over years and years and years and it gets back to my point that you have to continue to adapt. Right. We're sticking with these raisin rolls if it kills us. Right. And it's to, here again, to Al, to, to Alan's, you know, credit that he's recognized that. So now he's doing the cinnamon roll of the month. Right. Which I think is doing very well for him. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. It seems like it gives people a reason to engage in the social medias and stuff, which just brings it up to that many more eyes and memories of, that last cinnamon roll and whether it was a raisin one or not. Yeah. So, um, I guess it feels to me like it's kind of like, let's kind of hear the silver grill journey a little bit. Is that fair? Kind of jump into like, what was your place in life in the, The year or two leading up to acquiring the silver group. Well, I'll, I'll start back a little early. You want to, you want to go all the way back in the time machine? Let's go back in the time. Okay. We'll just zoom all the way back and bring it back. And I think it's important. Okay. I was raised in, in a middle class, uh, household, uh, San Francisco Bay area. Okay. My mother and father were grocers. They had a small little mom and pop grocery store. Yeah. And they always instilled it with me in me. Like a beaver's market style almost for Yeah, probably even smaller. Okay. Uh, they instilled with me that, you know, all the right things. Values and morals and integrity. But they always said, you need to be your own boss. Hmm. That was something that they always instilled in me. And they, cause they always owned their own business. Where did they come from? Or They're both from Italy. Uh, Dad immigrated from Italy in 1914. Alright. Uh, Mom actually is first generation, uh, American citizen. She was born in Stockton, California. Okay. So they met in, in California. So you're Italy, Italy? I'm Italy, yeah. We're both northern, both parents are northern Italian. Okay, yep. So, when I graduated high school, I always had an attraction to the outdoors. My father's side of the family, where he actually grew up when he came from Italy, was in the wine country. The Central Valley, San Joaquin Valley, south of Sacramento. Okay. So that was, uh, that's where all his family are and still there. And did you hang out there as a teenager and stuff like that? I did. And I love, I love the outdoors. I love working in the, in the vineyards and the smell of the vineyards. And of course, my cousins, they would go hunting and fishing. Sure. And so now it's 1969 and we're at the height of the Vietnam War. Right. And I mean, being in San Francisco was a, it was a very, let's say, colorful time. Were you spending time on the, what was the, the hill there, uh, where the Grateful Dead were and what not? The Grateful Dead, that was Haight Ashbury. Haight Ashbury District, yeah. Yeah, Haight Ashbury District, and, and, that really wasn't much for me. Okay. Uh, I Oh, I forgot to offer you a joint. Do you want to smoke this joint? Uh, I keep it here just in case our guests want it. No, we're getting, we're San Francisco. I hate Ashbury, so I'm happy with the bourbon. We've got a little old, old bourbon. I'm happy with that. A glass of water, but thanks for the offer anyway. Uh, anyway, sorry to sidetrack scroll chase. So you're. Like, drawn to the country? Is that what was drawn to the outdoors, and it was the height of the Vietnam War, and, and I didn't know it at the time. Uh, I, I wasn't sure if I was cut out for college, but I had a college counselor that said, you know, there's more to college than just schooling. Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be a life experience. You're gonna meet friends that you Plus you don't want to have to go to Vietnam. Well, and that, that was, that would have been motivating for me. They had a, well, and as, as I think everybody knows, it was a very unpopular war for sure. And I just wanted to go to a school and go to school. And I was attracted to Colorado because it was an outdoor state. I had never been here and I don't believe mom and dad really had the, Uh, the ability, or quite the finances to, to send me, but I think it was very important for them for me to, to get that student deferment. So I came to Colorado and it was, you know, everything that I wanted it to be. And, and how did you find Colorado state? Like just, it was because of the outdoorsyness and stuff, but yeah, I just, Oh, I had, Oh, I probably applied for half dozen catalogs from different colleges. I mean, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, but they're all kind of mountain, mountain areas. And I just put my finger on the map and I said, this is probably The one that's going to be the best for me. Seems pretty nice there, yeah. Well, learning was so much different then. Yes. Right? Like, I mean, you could go get encyclopedias and dictionaries and, you know, the internet didn't exist when I graduated high school either. Oh, no. And my grades weren't the best, and I was never the best student, but Colorado State ZSU will take you. They took me, yeah. They took me. So, I came out here sight unseen. And to move the story along a little bit, after a couple of years, uh, Vietnam War was winding down and mom and dad said, I think it's time for you to come home. Okay. And I said, I really want to stay. And my parents, I was very, very fortunate. They were always so supportive of me and they paid my tuition. And I said, well, I, I'm going to drop out for a year. I'm going to get my state residency, pay in state because I want to stay here that, that bad. Yeah. And so my last year of college, I needed to work and that's when I fell into the restaurant business. Oh, is that right? And so I started working as a waiter here at an old restaurant called the Hermitage Inn. This is back in the, it was halfway between here and, and, and Loveland. What was the pretty awesome seafood place at Horsetooth and College when I first moved to town? Probably Winston's. Winston? Oh, no, Nate's. Nate's. Nate's. Nate's. Yeah. Anyway, Nate's was there. Uh, that was even a little bit after the, the, the sixties. I moved here in 99. So yeah, quite a bit later, but that had been around for a long time too. Yeah. Great. But owned by the Mercurio family, just, just, just a great restaurant chain that they had. And so I, uh, Graduated and then in business finance and I specialized in at that time they had a specialization in real estate license. A real estate. So I in fact had gotten my real estate license in the summer that I took the year off. So a little bit of real estate, but then when I went back to school. I put my, uh, uh, real estate license in, inactive status, and then I fell in love with the restaurant business. So when I graduated, I was a year behind, it was 1974, and as all college students believe, they've worked so hard they deserve a break. Right. Not. Sabbatical. Yeah, sabbatical. So I, I moved to, to Vail, Colorado. Yeah. And I wanted to be a ski bum. So I was a quintessential ski bum. And I was always, uh, my, my waiting experience, uh, serving, I was always like the form, formality of it. And I always liked the incentive of, of, of the tips because you could go in and work an hourly job and you knew what you got, but if you went in and you were good, you could make a lot of money. And then I was, the restaurant I worked at had, uh, was friends with President Ford at the time. So then I was asked to serve President Ford in his home. And, so that was quite an experience, uh, visiting with the President, and So what, like, what set you apart, uh, if, with, I mean, in all humility or whatever, but why did you do Quite well with the tips. Why did you get selected to be the representative of the restaurant that went to President Ford's place? Well, I think, uh, Number one, I love the business. And I, and I loved, uh, I would say serving people and impressing them and in return we got good tips. Right. And so then I was selected to be in their gourmet room, which at the time the Red Lion was a very, uh, uh, Well, it was new and fresh. Yeah, higher standard. Did you know Reno? From those days? Uh, coincidentally, no. Cause wasn't he there at about that same kind of time? He was there at the exact same time. Maybe a little later. He was. I lived in the village. Yeah, yeah. He lived in what they called Lion's Head. We never knew each other. So for listeners wondering, Reino is the founder of the Egg and I restaurant chain, which grew up side by side. I'm sure you got to know each other in Fort Collins. We know each other very well and we still do. And, you know, very friendly competition, but to answer your question. So, uh, I would say it was me. I mean, I had a desire. I'd like, I like the formality of it. Uh, it was a real fun experience and, you know, I had to be cleared by secret service. And then, Cool. Cool. Their standards were higher back then. So now, uh, now I'm cleared by Secret Service. Oh, forever? Uh, well, at the time. Oh, okay. So then I was cleared to serve at President Ford's house. Right, right, get it. So, uh, My biggest mistake in, in, in, in my, my short lifetime then was I was bartending a private party for, and usually the private parties were all locals or supporters or donate, donors. And, uh, all the guests had, had left. And, uh, Mrs. Ford had gone to bed. President went up with her and he came down and I was there cleaning up by myself. And the president came down. Big roaring fire, as you can imagine, Vail, Colorado. He takes his shoes off. He kicks up on, on the coffee table. He says, son, now make me a real drink. And I said, Mr. President, what would you like? He said, gin martini on the rocks, two olives. So I served him his, his, uh, martini, Mr. President. And so my biggest disappointment is I felt like I could have sat down with him. Right. And just chatted. Right. But I was taught, I was taught by a, a French maitre d And, you know, you were supposed to know your place, and I, at that time, I was a bartender. Right. So, but it was a great experience. What a neat thing. It probably, he was setting up for that potentiality. You know, maybe he just wanted to be left alone, but very distinctively, he might have Wanted to just chat? He could have. I don't know. Yeah. As it turns out, one of my, one of my best friends, uh, ended up house sitting for president Ford and then in his later life became his aide. Oh, wow. And so until he passed. So this was kind of in that shortly after Vietnam period. Is that right? This would be mid seventies. Uh, so Vietnam was still rocking at that time? No. Uh, Yeah, it was done. It was done about that. Vietnam was in 71, 72. Okay. And then, uh, that's when, uh, President Ford Oh, and Ford took over for Nixon because he got bounced from Watergate. Yeah. So So what was the perception of Ford in, like, the circles that you ran in and stuff? I guess every president at that time was, like, a man of high honor. Oh. Regardless of their party or their Absolutely. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Totally different than today. Totally different than today, but President Ford was Speaker of the House. Okay. And before that Uh, Vice President Agnew, he resigned and he, he had, was involved in some scandalous things. Oh, before Watergate even. Yes. Oh, I see. And then, uh, so then. Oh, interesting. Uh, Ford then became vice president. So he was the first, uh, non elected president. That'd be interesting. It'd be like, in my lifetime, like Newt Gingrich all of a sudden finding himself. Uh, which would have been just as probably, I love, uh, have you ever watched the Simpsons? I do once in a while, not again, there's one episode where like somehow like George Bush moves in next door or something somehow and George Bush, I think it's George Bush and Homer just don't get on, but then Gerald Ford comes into the room. scene and, uh, Gerald Ford is like, Homer, do you like football? Yes, sir. I sure do. Do you like beer? Yes, sir. We're going to get along just fine. And anyway, they, they give some homage to Gerald Ford, I suppose, as being somebody that would even want to hang out with Homer Simpson. He was a very, very likable man. Of course, you know, there was, there's always controversy about his presidency and, and all that, but, uh, no, I, I thought he was a, uh, a great man and a good president and left the White House with a lot of grace. And so anyway, so sorry, we're getting all over it. But, uh, I had a college roommate, uh, that moved, we moved together in, uh, in Vail. We lived there together. He worked restaurants as well. And we, we thought we wanted to open a little restaurant. Oh, really? Okay. So, uh, It had been four years and we said we're, you know, we're kind of done with this Disneyland life, living in Vail. Gotcha. So you were waiting, you were ski bumming. You were, I was ski bumming, chasing pretty girls, whatever else. And we were ready, we were ready to settle down. And, and I, I made a conscious decision that, you know, I don't want to be a waiter all my life. I want to be the person that's getting weighted on someday. Yeah. So we, here again, fortunate enough, my parents, uh, were able to. Loan both Mike and I, or, uh, me some money and Mike's parents a little bit of money. So we set out looking for a restaurant. Okay. And that's another story in itself. We, we traveled around and we said, well, we're not finding anything, but let's, let's just move our stuff back to Fort Collins. Let's store it in a, in a basement that, that Mike had. And we always loved the silver grill. And the Silver Grill was, it was a, it was a greasy spoon. It was in the middle of Old Town. Yeah. And in, in Well, Old Town wasn't Oh, Old Town. what it is today at the time. No. Old Town was half empty. It was transients. It was, it was, uh, you know, hotels I'm told it was where businesses went to die. Uh, in the eighties. Yeah. And the interesting thing is, women did not walk down, uh, in Old Town, day or night. Wow. Alone. Day or night. Because of the transient kind of challenge? Because of the transients, yes. Okay. And so, we walked in one day, we said, well, let's eat at the Silver Grill one more time. And things seemed to be a little bit amiss. And we talked to our, uh, our server, and we just said, you know, things just aren't clicking quite. And she said, well. Silver Grill was sold about a year and a half ago, and the man who runs it, quite frankly, just doesn't want to run it anymore. He doesn't really know what he's doing. He wants to sell it. And so we said, well, where is he? And she said, well, he just walked down the street. He's listing it for sale today. Oh. So we waited for him to come back. And we literally negotiate. We didn't negotiate, but we, we talked to him in depth for hours. And then, uh, we got our, he had just listed it with a real estate agent. So I had a real estate agent and we ended up, we, we purchased also with the real estate. Yep. Yeah. Cause there wasn't really hardly a thing like business brokerage back then. You had a real estate license and then you could help put business deals together, kind of. So I bought it through my real estate agent in February 14th of 1979. Okay. Oh wow, and the economy was in a weird place at the time. Inflation was soaring, Carter was president. Oh, that's when interest rates were 15, 16, 17 percent. Yeah. It, it, it was just off the wall. So, we buy this restaurant and all we had ever been were waiters. Right. You gotta learn a whole bunch of new things. So, so Mike, my, my, my partner, My, my new partner, we're driving to work on the 50, 50, I trust for 50, 50. And, uh, Mike says to me, well, who's going to cook. And I said, because when we bought the restaurant, we, we had three waitresses, a soup cook and a, and a. But the owner had been the grill cook. Oh, really? Okay. So I said, well, Mike, one of us has got to learn how to grill cook. Maybe I better learn first because, Mike, we were getting ready to pursue other careers because we weren't finding a restaurant. So Mike had signed up to be a paramedic. And he said, well, I'll finish paramedic school. You'll be here more. So the first day, we flipped maybe 12 breakfasts, and every other egg we were breaking, because we didn't know how to flip. So every time we would flip an egg. And how big a place is this at the time? It was one building. Okay. And sat 40 people. Forty guests. Just that far end unit? Is that right? The far east end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What looks like kind of the old school diner now. Looks like the old school diner. That was the first building so far. With just a little kitchen on the far back by the, off the alley or whatever. The grill was up in the front window. Oh, really? And everything was, all the orders were verbal. You know, we had the lingo, you know, you know, you know, daily special, hamburger, put a dress on it, then it, you know, put lettuce and tomato. So we would yell back and forth and we'd have to coordinate. No tickets. No tickets. And we'd have to coordinate with the back kitchen. But anyway, that was the first day, 12, 12 breakfasts. And we thought, boy, we hit a home run. Well, it didn't take us long to find out that the business You hadn't really done a lot of math. No. Well, we, we, we saw the books, but the books, let's just say they, they weren't up to date. Yes. And anyway, so slowly, uh, the, the business was tough and, and Mike was more of an administrator. Okay. So he went on to the fire department. I bought him out after three years. Okay. Okay. And, uh Did he do stuff for the business? Did he, like, run the back office and take care of the insurance and different things like that? Oh yeah, we ran it 50 50. Okay, so he was, even though he was in the service world or whatever, he was still giving his time. No, after I bought him out, he was, he was Well, of course, then he was gone, but in the meantime, he was Oh yeah, he was cooking and we, and we were Both of them, whatever you're gonna do. We were living together and whatever money he made, Made whatever money so real, we threw it all in one pot. It was kind of like a marriage, but we couldn't survive otherwise. And I was working at night as a bartender at the charcoal broiler. Okay. And so, I mean, I'd get up at five in the morning, cook all day, clean up, and then go bartend. Go straight into work and bartend. So it was, yeah. Well, I think, I guess, you know, I think the illustrated point here in some ways, John, is that you had to put in an extraordinary effort for an extended period of time to get over the hump and make it. Yes. Yes. You know, without that, you wouldn't, you know, you could have given up. Anytime in those first three to five years and you're exactly right. And you know, being an entrepreneur, I put a lot of, a lot of weight into this. I mean, being an entrepreneur is it's, it's really in your soul. You really, you have to have it. Yeah. You have to have that drive. Give up almost has to be busted. Yeah. You just, you can't, you don't want to. You have to succeed. So I plugged along and Mike, uh, was out and I got married in, in, in the interim. And so where'd you find time to meet a girl in this bartending? Well, that's silver grill. She was my customer. So, uh, after about seven years, we, we talked about it and I said, you know, I have one idea, And I said, let's take one more chance. And I want to bake a giant cinnamon roll. So I had the idea of the cinnamon roll and, and Verne's was baking cinnamon rolls. Johnson's corner was baking cinnamon rolls. So I didn't have a recipe. Couldn't find a recipe. I was trying to see, I was trying to steal recipes from people and, and I, I couldn't find them. Trying to hire the Verne's, uh, former pastry chef to try to get the Verne's. Did. How did you know? So I tried to do that. And that finally turned to a Better Homes than Card and Cookbook. I got a sweet roll recipe and so the first day I, I didn't know anything about baking. I didn't know about You gotta measure. Yeah, you gotta measure. It's really hard. I didn't know how to let the dough rise and First day I baked 18 cinnamon rolls and they came out like hockey pucks and I, I was prancing, prancing out of the kitchen. I was just proud as a peacock and I was, I'm giving them away and people were just, I can't really eat this. These are really good, but you, but you know, Kurt, I, I, I got really good quick and the business started picking up. And then was the cinnamon roll part of that? Like why business picked up? Absolutely. And then about three months later, I, I, I was starting to bake it, uh, I was getting up, you know, two o'clock in the morning and working all day. Yeah. Yeah. And I realized I needed help. So I put an ad in the paper and, uh, an older man, probably in his late sixties, uh, had been a German hand baker. Hmm. He called me and he was a little kind of rough on the phone. He says, Oh, he says, I just need to come in. I need to work. He says, I've been retired three years and my wife is driving me crazy. Perfect. Russ Hamilton, great guy. This sounds like the kind of guy I don't have to pay too much. Well, okay. No, I said to Russ, I said, Russ, I, I can't afford to pay you. What you're worth is all I want to do is bake. So Russ and I got, became very close and he taught me how to bake like a professional baker. And we, we took that original recipe. We kept tweaking it and tweaking it. And he taught me how to tenderize the rolls and how to make the frostings. And we worked together for well over two years. But, uh, what was significant about the cinnamon rolls is it gave me a signature item, a differentiator. And it, and it gave me. I knew my food was good. It was basic, but it was good. So people started coming in. It's sausage patties. It's eggs. It's hash browns. Right. They came in to go, I want a cinnamon roll of cheese. The food's pretty good. So my business within a year had increased 50%. Wow. And then, and then it just started, then I was able to buy the building and then the building next door. And, and every time I bought a building, the business would increase. So. That, that all started in about 1986 and by 1995, uh, well I'll go back a little bit, in the late 80s, we were in another deep depression. Yep. Gene Mitchell, great developer who started and developed Old Town. you know, obviously that went into receivership. So the, the, the market was deflated. Real estate was deflated and I was able to buy my adjoining buildings at a reasonable price. And by 1995 I had five buildings. Wow. And every time, every time I bought a building, of course it was another major remodel, because those buildings just, well, but back in those days, the city didn't make you dance like they would make you dance today. If you try to do something like that, it wouldn't have been possible. And, and I have to compliment Four Cause. They, they, they were always very good to me and they saw the significance. you know, maintaining and, and, and recreating old town, if you would. So, yeah, they gave me a lot of leniency. And then in the year 2000, I was able to get a matching grant. Oh, yeah. From, uh, from the, when they were doing the downtown development authority kind of stuff, it was actually a Colorado grant, but it was a matching grant or like a historic renovation kind of thing for the storefronts. Uh huh. So I brought back all the five storefronts to their Oh, cool. To their original. They, they matched the mortar, the brick and everything, so. Oh, wow. So, uh, you know, I have a lot of people to thank, uh, you know, my first remodel, I, gosh, I had a budget and I blew the budget by four times, and, and I didn't have any money to pay my contractors and. You know, business is all about relationships. And I went to each of them and I, and I worked out terms and deals, right? Here's how much I can give you. Now you get free breakfast until I get you covered. But you know, in the end, after about a year, uh, I've, I was able to get a bank to support me and you had mentioned. Local banks, and I've always been, I've always done real well with local banks. Yeah. Yeah. Was the Bank of Colorado going way back, or you have other favors? Back in the day, it, it was, uh, Tom Ton and he was with, uh, first State Bank, Uhhuh, and, uh, or fa, first Interstate Bank. It might have been no first interstate bank. And then I moved to, uh. Uh, First National for a bit, and then I went to, uh, Homestate Bank owned by Harry Devereaux. Sure, sure. And, uh, and then when Homestate sold, then I ultimately went to Bank Colorado. And that's been about maybe six, seven years. And, uh, you know, they're a good company. local Colorado bank. That was my first, uh, kind of family owned stop along my banking journey was working for Tom Pranger in Windsor, a bank, Colorado. And I went for my first interview and, uh, it was supposed to be just with Cody Fulmer from the Fort Collins Bank. I've known him for years. Kim Day was, um, my coworker at my first banking stop and I show up at the Togan Country Club. And it's not just Cody, but it's also Tom Gotton, whoever was pre predecessor of Sean Ooff. Yeah. In that role, Tom, something true G Tom G And then the, the son of, uh, one, one of the. Family members. Uh, it was Chris of the family that owns the Pinnacle Bank Corp. Okay. I didn't know Chris, but Yeah. Yeah, there's a, I forget the, the family, but anyway, so I'm like meeting literally with the regional president and one of the owners of the bank. And the guy I thought I was interviewing with. And, uh, yeah, as it turns out, they shipped me off to Windsor instead of Fort Collins, but it was just such an honor because I'm like a second year guy working in the bank and I'm like meeting with the owners of this bank, which was a much smaller bank at that time, 20 years ago, whatever, 25 almost. So anyway, I've always had a lot of respect for bank Colorado. And they're great. And they helped me, they helped me through COVID. Right, right. They helped me with my remodel and they believed in me and so, uh, a lot of that is lost now with, with these bigger banks, you know, the old community banks. So no, I'm, I'm always, uh, if you're listening out there, always go with a community bank if you can. Yep, I totally agree with you. The big banks are 1 800, I don't really actually care about you, I just care about making profit off of you. Yep. Um, I'm gonna call a short break, and then we'll come back and talk a little bit more. Oh, that'd be great. And we are back from the break and you know, one of the things I was thinking about during the break, John, is that like, yes, you had a plan, you and your, your former roommate, veil, waiter, friend, person, you know, you, you had a plan to find a restaurant and buy it and operate it and then, but you didn't really find traction and then you stumbled into an opportunity and you jumped on it. Um, has that, and even with, as far as like the expansion of the restaurant over time and things like that, it sounds like most of the time you didn't really have a plan. Maybe you planted some seeds and then they came along and grew? Well, I think you're exactly right. Number one, we were both 26 and 27. Yeah. And it's interesting. We thought, Oh my God, we're, we're kind of old to get started. Right at that time. It felt like that. Yeah, we did. And so you're right. We didn't have a plan, but yeah, I've got a tribute and thank my parents and Mike's parents. Right, right. They were. Why did they believe in you to put money behind your venture? You know, I don't, I don't have an honest answer for that. Uh, you know, we both had really great parents and they believed in us and my parent, my, my mom and dad both being in, in business, I'm sure buying the silver grill probably sounded like a bonehead move, but you know, they believed in us. Yeah. And they never questioned anything at all. They were, were proud of us. Well, and you worked your ass off to prove them right. Whatever we, you know, for years. Whatever we did. And, uh, so, yeah, I attribute a lot of that. To our parents. And then when we bought the silver grill, I, I think we made, we made mistakes, but we didn't make big mistakes that really hurt us. I think the smartest thing we did is we had been waiters as, as we talked about. And, but we didn't have any kitchen experience and we recognized that number one, we love the silver grill. We love the old style diner. We, we love the, you know, these big, big pies. We love the, the local. Uh, and we, we thought, well, this is a, this is not going to be enough to support two guys. This farm is too small for two families. Yeah. So we thought we would build up the silver grill and then after a year, we'd probably buy a second restaurant. And our thought was Mike would, would run one and I would run the other. Well, we quickly found out that the first one wasn't enough to support us. So then it was just survival mode. That's why Mike. Continued to pursue paramedics and fire department and I continued, uh, we, I worked at the charcoal broiler and then we had, we started a janitorial company. Oh, is that right? And on our nights off, we, we called ourselves the Walnut Street Janitors. You cleaned your own restaurant and then went down the street and We cleaned, we cleaned offices. Oh, wow. At night. Wow. And so, yeah, truly, I mean, there's this, just this will to survive. I think part of it was we didn't want to disappoint our parents. Yeah, sure. You know, and it was always a big deal that I wanted to be a self made man. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, yeah, that's how we started, that's how we started the journey. What was it like when you bought him out? Do you remember how much you paid for his 50 percent share of the I paid, I paid him when I, I'll tell you, we paid 30, 000 for the silver grill. And when I bought him out, I did. Paid him his 15, 000. But, uh, I still owed my parents and I still I'm sure it wasn't easy from there. No, I still owed his parents. Oh, right. So I continued to make payments to both of them. Until they were paid off. Over time, did he ever regret that? Or did he, like, enjoy the journey that he had nonetheless? Oh, I don't think so. You know, I know that there were people that teased him. They said, do you think you sold out too soon? Right, right. But you know, he became very successful. He became an administrator and second in command for Poudre Valley Fire Authority. Yeah, yeah. She got a bigger paycheck than you did a lot of times without working as hard. Well, maybe you worked as hard. I don't know. Probably not. We both, we both worked, we both worked hard in different ways, but I'm most proud of the fact that, uh, we we've maintained a very close relationship. Did you, uh, did you come up with a steak dinner or something like that after you sold to Alan and got that first big check or anything? Well, the night of the closing, if that's what you're asking. Yeah. I. We went out for a big celebration. Good, yeah, yeah. We did. I mean, you didn't owe him anything, really, but, you know, he was ultimately your co founder, so that's kind of a fun thing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. We, we've celebrated in the right ways. What would you say, like, I don't know if there was like a silver grill way, or maybe staff and management and people, like, who fit the best on your team, and how could you tell that? Well, Early on, and I will say this, that in a small business, when you have two or three or four employees, I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's They're right there. You talk to them about anything You're there. You're part of their lives. It's easy to manage. As you grow, you have to Uh, obviously hire more employees and you have to learn how to delegate. Yeah. And you have to, you have to learn that you can't do everything. You have to learn that you're not the best at everything. So, as you, we first started talking about, uh, you know, uh, I think previously we were discussing about mentor groups and being part of. Uh, I learned a lot from my peers. I learned a lot from personal friends. But I also learned a lot from employees. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I mean, especially, not especially, but I'll say cooks. Okay. Uh, and, you know, we developed recipes together. And, so it was a, it was a learning process. For years, if I look back, I said, To myself, maybe I should have worked for a chain first to learn learn systems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, and, and I didn't do that, so I had to, through the school of hard knocks, as they say, I learned as as I learned. And were you the builder of those systems or was that kind of more key employees that No, I learned, I learned from, no, I was builder of the, of the systems. Okay. But you have to remember, Kurt, you know, we're talking 45 years ago. We're not talking software systems yet. Computer systems were just coming in. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and, and I, uh, I bought one of the original computers with the amber screen, and I took some classes, and I was never, never very good at it. But, uh, we, we tried, I always tried to be a little bit ahead of the curve, uh, whether it was in the accounting or whether it was in food systems. If it wasn't you doing it, somebody was installing this next part. Yes. Stage inventory tracking, you know, absolutely not ordering more Romaine when you've got a bunch of Romaine getting ready to go bad already or whatever. Right. And you're exactly right. As I grew, I hired a bookkeeper. I hired a kitchen manager. I did not have a manager for the first 10 years. And I thought, Oh my God, I don't know if the silver grill could ever afford a manager. And then as I expanded, of course, the key was sales. Oh, right. The sales grew. And that was your highest and best use in some ways, I know it was for Reino, like just being, just walking around egg and eyes and saying hi to people. Like that was some of his highest and best use at times. I always remember Reino because I, I was, I was approached, you know, to, to franchise or to do a second one. And Reino always told me, and I, and I know Reino's real happy now and I'm real happy, but he said, he says it changes. He says, yeah. When you start expanding and you, you know, be, become a small chain, then you, you're driving between restaurants and you're really not doing what you love to do. What you love to do is be in your restaurant. And. Well, that was why it was such a beautiful thing when he sold everything but three, I think, or something. And he could just be the, the owner guy of those three. Yep. And, and, and the big part of the silver grill is being in downtown. Totally. Being in old town, being in the old, old buildings. That would have been. Hard to duplicate. Yeah, totally. You couldn't. I mean, I could build a silver grill someplace else in a strip mall, but it might have good food, but it's not going to have the same ambiance. Right, totally. And, and if you put a silver grill in some old building down in Boulder or downtown Denver or something like that, that's just not It's just not the same. It's not the same community. It's not the same environment. It didn't come together over 90 years, you know, all that stuff. Um, what would, uh, what would your, your favorite employees, uh, from across the years say were your special talents, if you will, uh, as a restaurant owner, as a manager, as a leader? I don't know where your talents lie. You know, I, I think I was always a good delegator. Okay. I was comfortable with that. Oh, always. Honest and straight with my employees now, that doesn't mean all my employees like me. Sure. Yeah. Uh, I some people don't like honesty that much Tell me i'm good at my job I was I was a uh, I I was Could be tough. Mm hmm. There was there was a few of us in town that were pretty tough and fiery And as you know, the restaurant business is probably the most the the most I mean most difficult business To run. Yeah, yeah. And when you're not making money, or enough money, and you have employees that don't show up, or you have employees that just have attitudes, you have a tendency to get fired up. Make rapid decisions. Make rapid decisions. I had a 24 hour rule. I didn't get angry. I let things simmer for 24 hours, and if it still bothered me in 24 hours, Uh, but one of my favorite stories is a little off subject, but I had a phone call about 10 years ago, and it was a lady, it was an email, and she said, I just saw an ad about Budweiser and Fort Collins, and she said, I remember working there when I was a college student. And she said, I'm just wondering how you're doing and how the Silver Grille is doing. This is all through email. She was like, you probably don't remember me, so I emailed her back. And I said, you know, her name was Lisa. Lisa, you're right. Lisa DeFonte. I don't, I don't remember you. And then I got thinking about it. And I sent her an email back and I said, Lisa, Did I by chance fire you? She goes, matter of fact, you did. She goes, and I deserved it. And, uh, she, she lives in New York and she and I have now been email pals. 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't, I have not seen her in 45 years. And, but that's a, but that's awesome. It, it is a funny story. Well, I have the same, I've told this story on the podcast at least once before, but, um, when I became the acting president of the bank, when my boss got let go back in 2009, um, we had gone down from 12 to seven staff and. Myself and the teller manager, uh, uh, gal made the decision to let another teller go because she just, she was smart and cute and just wanted to be an artist or a photographer or something. And she resented the fact that she had to work in a stupid ass bank. Uh, Allie was her name. And, uh, we let her go that same day. She. Was pissed. She went and got a job at Walmart photo studio, you know, which was a less good job than working at the bank by a couple of bucks an hour or whatever. But then she eventually started her wedding photography business and then her art studio and then this and that. And she tagged me five years later and said, thanks to the best and shortest live boss I ever had. You know, thanks for firing me. Five years ago, because that was the thing that opened the door to me actually finding some fulfillment. And it sounds like this person you're talking about, Lisa, had the same kind of general experience. Like, I respect you for calling me out on my shit, and I changed my ways in part because of you. It's happened, not specifically like that, but I, I have terminated young people, and I've had Their parents call me and say, thank you. Thank you for, you know, they, they need to accept that responsibility. And when they say they're, you know, they're scheduled to show up, they need to show up in this one particular young girl, she didn't show up. And I, I had a hard, fast rule. You don't show up, you don't come back. And it's very difficult in any business, but especially at a restaurant, because when you're short a server, you're short a cook, everything is bogged down and the customer does not understand. Totally. Some do, but some don't. Yeah, you know, we're short staffed. I'm sorry. So it's, it's very important that you have staff and you've got to maintain that and you've got to maintain good relationships. I didn't always have good relationships and I didn't always have great employees, but as, as it's grown and we've become more sophisticated as a restaurant and old town has become sure what it is destination for many destination. Yeah. Uh, our employees are, like a better word, more quality employees. Uh, well, as you became dominant, you know, probably people know that as a silver grill weight person, you make more consistent, uh, Better tips with a shorter day than a lot of other places. Yeah. And that's what drew me to the sewer grill is I knew I wanted to have a family someday and I love the restaurant business. And in Vail, it was, it was late nights. I mean, it was. Start your days at 11 and then at 2am. You'd ski all day, work all night. And then of course you have to go out and spend your money at night, go to the local bars. And I knew, excuse me. I knew that was not going to be. Right. It's a long term. Yeah. No, that was not a long term thing. So I made, I made some good decisions. Meh. The decisions, the bad ones that I made weren't, uh, necessarily, uh, didn't necessarily hurt. Didn't wreck ya. No. Fair enough. Um, Any last thoughts, uh, you know, maybe some words to an aspiring restauranteur out there that's, uh, bussing tables or working the counter at a bartender job or whatever? I think you've got to be, it's, and I said it before, it's got to be in your soul, but you've got to be commitment, committed, and you've got to be consistent. And, and when I'm saying, it's consistent with everything, consistent with service, consistent with your hours, consistent with the food. If the food's not good, I mean, you've got to make it right. My, my father taught me a lot of things. And one thing that's there's still a plaque on the wall is you never close early. And that, that, that was said a lot more than, than just that, but you've got to, the customer has to know what to expect. If you're going to open up a six by guy, you better open up a six. You don't close early just because the employees want to go home. Right. And there's no customers there right now. Yeah. They have to know your customers need to know what to expect from you. Absolutely. They've got to know. And I used to drive by And at closing time, or before, and if that close sign was turned around, they would hear from me. Yeah. You know, we all have little hot buttons that we push. Sure, yeah, yeah. And there were, that was one of them. You've got to stay You got to do what you say you're going to do. And, and I've, I've taught to the, that's my boys. I mean, you've got to, you've got to be a man of your word. It's an interesting thing. You know, we were talking before we went live with this podcast, even about what Loco Think Tank does and what I do for a living, and it's really hard for me to describe to would be members of Loco Think Tank. What that experience is going to actually be, because I don't know, I'm not going to be there. You know, you're going to love it. It's going to be a confidential forum where you can break down hard things. You can share your fears and failings as a business leader and be held accountable by other peers. And, but I don't know what your experience is going to be. And I, I should probably get better at that, like telling that story. Maybe there's multiple stories, but I know what my experience is going to be at the silver girl. I'm going to roll in, I'm going to, you know, if I want to split a cinnamon roll with my wife, I know what that cinnamon roll is going to taste like virtually, I know what the brisket, uh, not brisket, uh, what's the corn, corned beef, corned beef, I don't know what the corned beef, uh, hash breakfast tastes like, as well as many of the other options, you know, it's very consistent, whereas like each of my 90 plus members has a different experience. And, and to some extent, a slightly different value proposition, even some are there for, you know, accountability, some are there for learning, some are there for perspective, some are there for cheap therapy, some are there for to, I don't know what they're there for always. Anyway, I digress. Um, but it is an interesting, like rest running is hard, but I think the definition of what you're trying to deliver is a little bit more known than maybe than what my weird little business is here. Yes. I don't know. Yeah. Uh, just thinking out loud here with you. Um, I think it's time, faith, family, politics, the, uh, things that thou shalt not but must talk about when you come to the look of experience. Um, where do you want to start on that? Well, I, you know, I, I, I'm very soulful. And I would say soulful and spiritual. You know, I believe You mentioned some Zen stuff earlier, kind of, when you're fishing and whatever. Oh, when I'm fishing, it's definitely one with nature. I think I connect mostly with nature. Uh, I've been very fortunate. I do like to horseback ride. I've been very fortunate. Oh, fun. To ride with the Crow Indians. Oh cool. In Custer's last stand and experience a sweat lodge. Oh, wow. And did you get some, uh, what are they peyote or something like that? It was no peyote, but it was, it was. Intense? Intense and hot. Okay. And when you get hot, it gets up to 180, 190 degrees. Oh! You're, you're, you're hallucinating and you're, you become one with nature and that is, that was really an experience that happened, uh, uh, about 25 years ago that I've, that I've never forgot, but I, I do relate to, to nature and there's, there's a greater being out there. Okay, so there's a creator force of some sort in this universe. There's a creator force and, and, uh, you know, it's out there and it's hard to grasp exactly what it is. Yeah, yeah. But I think you have to believe in something. I would agree. I've heard it said, you know, if you don't believe in God then the state is the state. Is the highest being no, and that's trouble for both the state and the people, you know, uh, and even just, uh, uh, a target of something to point at. And that's what I find interesting about comparative religions. If we want to call them that is that they have all got us pointing at largely the same kinds of things, you know, integrity, honor, justice, truth, love, like all of those things have pretty much the same definitions. Whether you're a Hindu, or a Jew, or a Christian, or, uh, whatever else, right? I kind of capsulize that by saying, whose God is really God? And we all have a God, or maybe it's the same God. Right, right. No, that's what I think, honestly. I think it's different perceptions of the same God. And I've traveled, uh, I've traveled quite a bit. I've been to Nepal and I've, I've experienced Buddhism and Hinduism and, and of course, and Muslims and I've been in Vietnam and so I've been around the world. So yeah, it's, it, it, everyone has their own belief structure. What was your family background? Like, you were Northern Italians. It's the land of the Catholics, I assume, but maybe not. Roman Catholic. Okay. I was raised Catholic, but not a very religious family. Yeah, yeah. We just followed our own Over a Christmas and Easter kind of Catholic kind of thing. Yes. Confession wasn't really something you were acquainted with. Confession was not something I was No, I was not very familiar with. Fair enough. Um, You want to talk about family or politics next? Oh, you know, let's, uh, whatever you want. Okay. I, I'm happy with both. Let's go to family next. Um, can we talk about your ex wife and the mother of your children? Yes. Uh, where did you find her along this journey? You said you were, she was a customer at Silvergrill. She was a customer at Silvergrill. I had owned the Silvergrill for approximately about a year. Okay. Uh, we So you were totally broke. She didn't marry you for your money. She did not marry me for my money. We, uh, we, we connected. And, uh, we dated for three years. Um, and then we got married. Yeah. Um, and, you know, life and marriage, as you know, it's, it's It's a struggle. It's it's work every day. Yeah, and The business played a I'll say a small role in it. I was very entrepreneurial She was not she didn't like the risk. That's up scared her Yeah, and and we we had two boys. Okay, very proud of my boys and we'll talk more about them in a moment and We, uh, eventually started pooling, pooling apart. Yeah. And sometimes, as you know, you grow together, you grow apart. How old were you boys when you We had been married 20 years and I had two boys age 14 and 18 when we were, when we were divorced. So they were starting to gain their independence and whatever. You didn't have to be team Arnolfo to really support them well. Um, let's talk about those boys. Uh, one thing we always do is, uh, one word description of the children, if you're willing. Can you think of a favorite word or a most descriptive word for either and you can expand beyond that. But. First thing that came to my mind is great. For the pair. Yeah. Do you have an individualized word for them? No, you, you know, they're, I had a friend that always said, I just want to raise good human beings. Yeah, yeah. And my boys are great human beings. Yeah. And we're extremely close. Okay. We don't have a lot of interests together. Yeah. Uh, I like the outdoors. Neither of them really like the outdoors. Huh. Uh, but coming from a family background, uh, family's important to me, so I try to have a family dinner once a week. Oh, cool. And they, uh, they each work, work on their, they both live in town. Are they, do you have grandkids, or? No, they're both single. Both single, still, interesting. One's 34, 38, I might have mentioned that, and they're both, both single. Yeah. And I have a son. Older sister in town. She's married with no children. So every Sunday we try to have a family. Oh cool And then we and then quite often we'll invite Somebody else. Yeah, someone from the outside That it just doesn't work It just adds a little, just spice some things up a little bit. Adds yeah, yeah. Adds, adds things up a a little bit. So I had a habit for a while. I was doing, me and Jill, I have a table, a square table for eight. Yes. One of those IKEA tables. Or maybe it's not Ikea American furniture, but it butterflies out to be like a nice square table with two in each side. And uh, I've had a lot of dinners where I would cook, but I would have. that I thought would like each other. And, uh, it was just so much fun to have that kind of steady mix of new conversation in the room, but it's a big effort. Uh, so, compliments to you for being consistent on family dinner, and uh, so how long, it's been a while that you've lived a single man's existence in? Twenty years. Holy cow. Been a long time. Uh, I've had some relationships. Sure. Uh, as older people know, it gets increasingly difficult. There's, there's, the, the, the tracks are deep. Yep. And I live a very, uh, extreme single lifestyle. Right, right. I, I, as I say, I do like to travel, like to get up and go. Uh, it'd always be nice to have a, have a partner and someone to do things with. And there's So you still got your radar up for that if you find the right option. And there's still, still ladies that, uh, I'm interested in and ladies that I do things with. And so, uh, What kind of things, John? Just kidding. We don't need to go there. So, anything else in the family front? You want to give any more kudos to your parents? Um, for, you know, trusting you, giving you encouragement on don't work for the man, whatever else? Well, you know, they They, and I believe this about all immigrants, that they all had this pull yourself up by the boots attitude. And I don't care who you're talking about now, and I'm not getting political, but generally people that want to move to the United States, America. They want a better life, and they're hard workers. And, I mean, you can find I think historically that's for sure been true. Absolutely, I mean, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Polish, it was A hundred percent. Well, and I think some of the stories online about, Hey, you can stay in a bougie New York City hotel if you immigrate there as a Yeah. Haitian refugee. Or whatever. Like, I think that actually is very harmful to the, the notion that it's not going to be hard. They're going to give you a debit card full of money. They're going to take you to a place, you're going to stay in, you know, whatever. Yeah. I don't know. That's not the way it used to be. Right. Right. No, a hundred percent. You had, some things are similar. North Dakota is full of immigrants. You know, nobody. Nobody moved to North Dakota unless they were trying to start a new life somewhere. But you know, you had to come when you went, and I'm talking a hundred years ago. Sure. You had to come with a sponsor. Yep. And you had to come, arrive in, whether it was Ellis Island or where it was, you 50 in your pocket to show that you weren't, you know, And, uh, you know, that's how my parents came in. Very interesting, Kurt, is I'm still going through boxes of things. And I found my grandfather's immigration papers last night. And what was interesting about it is they say the immigration system's broken. I, I don't necessarily like that word, but it, it, it, It's never been great. We'll call it low functioning. Yeah, so here's what's interesting. So I was born in 1951, and I found this one page book. Paper last night of my grandfather who I always thought came through Mexico Okay, and I found his paper. He came here in about 1915 okay, and on this paper. It was a one page document Application he came through Ellis Island the name of the boat is there. So now I know my grandfather came Ellis Island Yeah, and I never knew that until last night. Well, he didn't apply for Citizenship Until 1951. Oh, wow. My father came in 19 Preparing for your arrival. Or something. Yeah. It was the same year. Right. So my father was here, uh, uh, arrived in 1914. He didn't get citizenship until he was inducted into World War II, into the Army. Sure. So, here we go. We're not talking politics, but we need to, we need to fix it. Right. A hundred percent. Well, We need to welcome them in. It can either be broken. Yeah, I agree. Like, and, and walk and have some screen, like we can't like, like I'm not a Trumpy fan necessarily, but when he says Venezuela is intentionally emptying their mental institutions and their prisons into our country. You fucking know they are. Like, why wouldn't they? Yeah. I would. You know, Iran would. Colombia might. Mexico might. You know, if there isn't something opposing that notion, why wouldn't ya? We want people coming here that want a better life. Totally. And willing to work hard. Yep. 100%. Yeah. Um, So, good family from Northern Italia, and uh, have you been traveling there, where your family's from? I have. Are your parents from there? Are your grandparents? I've been, you know, I didn't travel very much until really 20 years ago, then. After my divorce, I took my boys to Italy. I wanted them to see their family roots. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now, since then, I've been back twice. Okay. And I've been, I've traveled extensively now, and I've had that opportunity. I just, uh, I've, so I, I don't know if I mentioned, but I've got an exchange student now from Finland. But two students ago was a young man from Italy. And I was just listening to a documentary podcast kind of thing, and when the Romans moved out of Rome, like, Eventually kind of got retracted to that. As far as the empire, they moved to Ravena because it was like swampland. It was easily defensible up against the, the, the Huns and the barbarians. Yeah. That ultimately knocked off the Roman Empire. I, I love old shit like that. I don't know why, like, give me a six hour podcast and the history of Northern Italy and I will eat that up. Well, we, I just booked a trip. Uh, I have, I have a buddy that I travel with and. And my sons, and one son's not able to go, but we just booked a trip to Dublin, London, and Paris. It should be fun. It should be fun. It should be a lot of fun. Uh, Faith, then we've covered, you want to talk any politics, uh, more than we've done so far? You know, I think politics is very interesting for me right now. Yeah. Um, I've always described myself as, as, uh, fiscally conservative and socially moderate. But now with the, and I've always been an independent, I've never, because I can't allow, align myself with either party, but, but now with what's going on and you listen to that without getting to specifics, you, you listen to both sides and they both have good points. So, I, I'm somewhere I can't align to the right, I can't align to the left, so now I'm looking at the person. And, and I think I've always been that way, and more so than ever, you know, I think we need a third party, or, or something that I can align with 100%. Yeah, yeah, well, when you look at the person, like, aren't you grossed out on both fronts, kinda? Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying. Yes. Um. And so, What are we to do about this? Like, I feel like both Trump and Kamala are the products of the system. You know, they're a symptom of the disease, not the cause of the disease. If that makes sense. Although Trump is different. I don't know. Do you think Trump is hated because he doesn't want to do war much? Is that why the media is kind of so opposed to him or is it because he's a. I think he's racist because like, what is the story there? I think it's maybe all of those things, but I think he's so abrasive. Right. Right. He's just so abrasive. Yeah. And I can certainly align with a lot of his policies and now with Kamala and what she's saying, I could align with a lot of her policies, but now it gets down to who do you believe, who do you trust more? Yeah. And then, You know, then you get into the politics. So they saying it's just because of politics to get elected and all. So that's been an interesting thing to watch. I mean, I don't want to be critical, but like as Kamala's basically stolen a couple of Trump's, Like big things. Yeah. It was like, well, just come up with something. You gotta have some really smart people on your team. Not just like, we're doing a 5, 000 tax credit for kids. Oh no, we're doing a 6, 000. I don't know. I just come up with some of the original. Yeah. RFK. How do you feel about his third party run? Well, I think, you know, I don't think he was treated very well. For sure. Yeah. By really either. Well, the Democratic establishment basically made it impossible for him to win, even if he To win, and he wasn't allowed on the, uh, on the ballots. Most of the ballots. Except for when he tried to remove himself, and they're like, nope, sorry, you gotta stay on the ballot now, motherfucker. Excuse my French. Yeah. It's weird. It's gross, right? Like, it's so corrupt. It's so different than what I And I'm not just blaming the Democrats, um, uh, the Republicans too, like they will play the game as hard as they can. Within the rules to screw the other guy. And we need to be a United America that says, okay, Gerald Ford's our guy. Yeah. And as, as you know, back in, after nine, nine 11, which was horrible, that was the first time I've ever really seen our country United and there was no party system, it was just, we were all Americans for like six weeks. Yeah. And by, by golly, that's what we want to get back to. We want to get back to that. He's been interesting. Having this finished guy. with us because they've got like fragmented, right? They've got 17 parties. And so just nobody cares as much. It isn't so tribal because you're a green, you're a red, you're a socialist, you're a whatever, and it's okay because we're all kind of, it isn't this very polarized thing and, and, uh, anyway, cheers. I hope we find a more United America together in that regard. Yeah. And I, you know, I, I think regardless of who's going to be the president, We're still American. It isn't gonna be as bad as the other team is saying right now. No You may not like one or the other. And you know, there's certain things with all the administrations that I didn't like, but by God we're all Americans. What do you think about the censorship, misinformation, disinformation kind of conversation, if you will right now? Like, like Elon was Times man of the year in 2020 and then he buys Twitter and all of a sudden he's. Kind of persona non grata alongside Trump in some respects. Yeah. I, or is it because he's manipulating it? Like, is he manipulating this, this microphone he purchased for 44 billion? Or is he defending free speech? I really, I really don't think it. Any of us Americans really know what's going on. We really don't know what's going on. And I think you're right. Unfortunately. Uh, well, that's, you know, that's the first step toward, uh, taking down the red pole, John. All right. We're closing segment. The loco experience. What's the craziest experience that you would care to share with our listeners? Remember you're retired and independently wealthy at this point with that real estate and stuff. Nobody's going to, you're single. Well, you know, but I also won't ask you to tarnish your reputation. No gosh, well. I love Fort Collins. I love, I love Old Town. I was here, I'm going to say, at the beginning. Beginning meaning in the 70s when everything was, it was the dregs downtown. We've had some great founding fathers, you know, and, and, Uh, the, one of the men we mentioned, gene Mitchell Sure. Who had a vision, he really was the catalyst that, that Totally, that, that started the old town experience. But we've had, we've had some great f founding fathers that have led us in, in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm so appreciative of Fort Collins and, you know, you can see a lot of criticism about everything. the city government, the council, you know, uh, But they have really supported me as a small business person. The city has, and the county, and whatever else. The city, and the public. Yeah, yeah. And the public, and, and, and, you know, years ago, I, I think I was viewed as just a young guy, you know, that didn't know anything, which they're probably right. Now, uh, I, rather than, uh, not getting criticized, but now I get accolades, and they go, Oh, John. We remember when you flipped burgers in the front window. Right, right. And we remember how hard you worked. So, I get a lot of gratification from just the local people walking down the street. And that's very, very fulfilling for me. You know, I think that's something that, like in this kind of transient society of, you know, maybe I'll do this for five years, that for five years, this for three, that for two, that for seven. Yeah. That's probably an under, so I was, um, you probably know Doug Johnson from the Intersphere and stuff like that. He's got Tiger 21. He's Elizabeth Ledoux's compatriot in the Tiger 21 thing. Um, and, uh, Like, I've, I've, I've known him forever, and I don't quite remember why I got to hear, but like, just, like, we've, we've lived totally parallel, but different tracks, me and Doug. Um, oh, he invited me into University Connections years ago. You know what that is? With, uh, Edwards, David Edwards was helping to fund that, and different folks. Yeah, they did very well. Yep. And, and some of the outcomes from that very first session were like the Mason corridor bus line thing. And some of the, some of the signage for Oak street and different kinds of waypoint markings and stuff. And I was just this like 29 or 32 or something year old banker. And Doug was like, I can tell you're extra smart. You know, I'm going to invite you into this like extra smart people's kind of group thing. And it was kind of a transition for me of being invited to the conversation. If you will, and you know, you've been in the conversation for, you know, most of 40 years now, and I don't know, you know, it's, it's not like you can really move things, but know that you've been a part of the conversation, you know, you've impacted things, people. Well, and I'm really proud of, you know, obviously what I've done, but also what Fort Collins has done. Totally. And, you know, we, we had visions and obviously as a younger man, I was very involved with the Downtown Business Association, the Chamber of Commerce. And I was, I always served on a, on a, on a different board. And 40 years ago, as we've talked this, you know, the old town and downtown, it wasn't much and we had this vision, uh, and there was a group of people that had a vision of what old town might look like. Yeah. With restaurants and boutiques and, and fine dining. Walking areas. Walking areas and we, we have the best alleys in the country. Totally. So now we, we have, uh, you know, groups coming from different cities to. Yeah. to try to model their cities after us. Yeah, yeah. So, I don't take anything for granted. I mean, I, there's nothing you can criticize about Colorado, Fort Collins, downtown. I mean, it's They're trying. It's At least that. Yeah, it's wonderful. Well, thank you for being one of those kind of city fathers in this renaissance of Fort Collins. Kurt, thank you very much. I hope you've enjoyed the time. I have. Good. Thank you. Godspeed, sir.