EXPERIENCE 181 | Born a Social Worker! - A Conversation with Kelly Evans, Executive Director of Neighbor to Neighbor, Inc. - Delivering Housing Access in Larimer County and Beyond

Don’t judge her for it, but Kelly Evans is and will forever be a Jayhawk.  Born and raised in and around Lawrence, Kansas, Kelly got her Bachelor of Social Work from the University of Kansas and soon after began a front-line role with a local non-profit.  Two-and-a-half years in, the board made the decision to depart the Executive Director, and asked Kelly if she would take the job!  Kelly is a natural leader, and a lover of nature, and her dreams of moving their family near their favorite vacation spot in Colorado (Poudre Canyon) came true when she and her family moved to Fort Collins in 2012.

Kelly came to town for a big job - to turn around longtime housing focused non-profit organization Neighbor to Neighbor, which had grown out of a grassroots movement in the 1970’s but had suffered through the real estate doldrums of the Great Recession.  She did just that, growing to a sustainable revenue model and a staff of nearly 20 before the Covid pandemic response flooded the organization with resources - with expiration dates! - and they grew to over 60 employees by 2022 - and then had to shrink back down to a stable(ish) staff of 30.  How does a compassionate leader downsize with prudence and justice and empathy? - just ask Kelly - as I did.  N2N is in a great place and still offers a dozen programs ranging from home buyer preparedness training to rent assistance to homeshare programs and much more.  

Kelly is cheerful and open and kind, and one of the most empathetic and intelligent people I’ve ever met.  And - she’s a freethinker and a person I can cheerfully disagree with and challenge without risking a friendship!  So please enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Kelly Evans.  

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Transcript

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her for it, but Kelly Evans is and will forever be a Jayhawk. Born and raised in and around Lawrence, Kansas, Kelly got her Bachelor of Social Work from the University of Kansas and soon after began a frontline role with a local non profit. Two and a half years in, the board made the decision to depart the executive director and ask Kelly if she would take the job. Kelly is a natural leader and a lover of nature and her dreams of moving their family near their favorite vacation spot in Colorado are a reality. Poudre Canyon came true when she and her family moved to Fort Collins in 2012. Kelly came to town for a big job to turn around longtime housing focused nonprofit organization, Neighbor to Neighbor, which had grown out of a grassroots movement in the seventies, but it suffered through the real estate doldrums of the great recession. She did just that growing to a sustainable 20 before the COVID pandemic response flooded the organization with resources. With expiration dates, and they grew to over 60 employees by 2022, and then had to shrink back down to a stable ish staff of 30. How does a compassionate leader downsize with prudence and justice and empathy? Just ask Kelly, like I did. Neighbor to Neighbor is in a great place, and still offers a dozen programs, ranging from homebuyer preparedness training, to rent assistance, to home share programs, and much more. Kelly is cheerful and open and kind and one of the most empathetic and intelligent people I've ever met. And she's a free thinker and a person I can cheerfully disagree with and challenge without risking a friendship. So please enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Kelly Evans. welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. My guest today is Kelly Evans and Kelly is the executive director of Neighbor to Neighbor. Welcome. Welcome to the local experience. Thank you, Kurt. Um, how was your day so far? It has been good. It's a busy day. It's fun to be here. You got a new backpack. I'm going on my first 14 or I just found out last night. And so it was kind of like, ah, see what the garage has for me for 50 bucks. And I got a great Osprey. Perfect. That's great. So, um, for the, uninitiated, because probably for a lot of people, they don't really have a reason to connect to neighbor to neighbor, right? So for those people, especially that have never heard of it, uh, start with the baseline. What are you guys doing? Yeah, so I get to run this amazing long time Fort Collins based non profit called Neighbor to Neighbor, We are Larimer County wide and some of our services are statewide and everything we do is around housing access and opportunity. So actually we don't just serve people with low income, we also serve a lot of folks working toward home ownership and working toward financial goals. So, we have quite a diverse group of clients. I don't know if I knew that, like it doesn't even have to be kind of just general budgeting and you probably have some training and things like that and positioning to try to buy a home. Yep. And then we also serve homeowners in maintaining homeownership and avoiding foreclosure or exploring a reverse mortgage in their later years if that ends up being something that They're interested in. Right. Interesting. I didn't realize the breadth, probably. It's about 12 programs. And then you have, um, like some units, you own some units that you rent out as well. 132 affordable apartments. Oh, okay. I didn't realize it was that many. That's a lot. Yeah. Um, so 12 programs. Mm hmm. I'm not going to ask you to name all the programs, but it's, uh, so does each of them have like a direct report for a, a program leader? Um, some are grouped. Some run two or three. Yeah. Some are grouped. We have, I think, four directors. Okay. At Neighbor to Neighbor. And maybe five managers. And then it must be twenty front line staff. Okay. Doing the important work. The direct client engagement. And that could include financial kind of experts that help them through that or. Mm hmm. It really is, it's everything across the housing spectrum. From people experiencing homelessness. People on the verge of homelessness. People who are maybe a tenant in one of our apartments. People pursuing their dream of homeownership. And then long time homeowners wanting to stay homeowners. Right. So, mm hmm. Huh. That is, I, I'm sorry that I didn't, uh, recognize the breadth of it. I imagine most people probably fall into that bucket. It's like you said. Unless you have, you know, needed a service or supported one of the services, most people don't, don't know that we really are, you know, from beginning to end, right. housing. And was it, is this an independent organization? It was founded here, has been here, isn't affiliated with any international or national causes necessarily? Well, we are affiliated, but no, we are an independent local, local nonprofit founded by Lou Stitzel, an amazing woman, not far from here in North Fort Collins, 54 years ago. Okay. Our national affiliate is going to be NeighborWorks America. And they're, they're basically a funder of Neighbor to Neighbor. Oh, like for like federal contracts and different things like that, or through whatever channel, or they're just a foundation that cares a lot about it? They're a group that has a membership of about 250 community development organizations across the country. So those are our peers and you know, they take us. to convenings where we can learn from each other. They also audit the heck out of us to make sure we're adhering to best practice. Yeah, it's almost like an accreditation of sorts. And we are, and we are exemplary in their eyes. So we're proud of that. If they found you to be not exemplary and they kicked you out, would there be other organizations that you could affiliate with? Or is that, they're kind of the big show? Yeah, I'm sure there would be. You're not looking to, you're not looking to. Yeah, but we get money from them, and we get, you know, training, so it's a good, it's a good thing. Auditing, auditing is actually a good thing. It is. They run us through the ringer, and then they tell us, you know, you could do better, or this group in Rhode Island is doing it this way. Or, actually, can we refer people to you, because you've kind of got the market figured out. Yeah, yeah. How interesting. Um, what else would you want that novice person to know? Do you want to give any kudos to some of your directors, your managers? Um, how do, do people, is all your money from, like, donations and funding? Do people pay to engage in some of these classes and trainings and stuff? Well, it's very diverse. Um, one of our strategic Sorry, that was lots of questions at one time. That's cool. We're here to talk. It's all good. Um, one of our goals is to maintain a diverse funding base so that we don't, you know, How they say, have all of our eggs in one basket. Yeah, yeah. So, the, the biggest funder, funder for us used to be people paying us rent. And then, we got a lot more grants and donations, and so now it's a little bit more balanced between community members supporting our work, especially homelessness prevention, that is what most folks love to support in, in Neighbor to Neighbor the most. Um, but then there's also grants and the state pays us to teach homebuyer education, um, because it has long term results in people avoiding foreclosure down the road. Right, right. And I imagine that there was probably a lot of grant funding during COVID 19 and, you know, efforts to keep people in their places and whatever. So much. We didn't know what to do with it. So much. Yeah, we would have known what to do with it. Uh, we weren't allowed to spend it the way that we would have wanted, uh, but that is sometimes how government works. And so Can you elaborate, um, on that? You, like, preferred to do longer term investing and they wanted you to just do short term stuff or Like We believe in providing just as much assistance as a household needs and then helping them meet their own goals. Yeah. Yeah. And What happened during the pandemic, starting in about 2021, is the government provided more money than we had had in 2020 to provide assistance in rent assistance, rent and utility emergency assistance. for longer periods of time. Which created more people who got hooked on the, Yeah. on the money that then dried up. Yep. Yeah, so, it wasn't at all how we would have designed the program. What would you, what would you have done instead to prevent that kind of conflict of effort and interest? What we believe best practice is with rent assistance, it is nationally known as a best practice to prevent eviction. It's much better for communities, Sure. for landlords, for families. Yeah. So let's prevent that. Um, usually, I don't even know about usually, but a lot of times, you can prevent an eviction with one to three months worth of assistance. Really help a family who had to, you know, leave town for a funeral. Right. Or got this terrible illness. Had a medical situation. Yeah. Or the transmission goes out in the truck. You know, things that happen to all people. One to three months rent assistance will suffice in a lot of cases. in the more chronic issues that are more tricky, six months worth of assistance. Um, can often be the solution. Past that, what folks are going to need, maybe people who are experiencing chronic homelessness, for example, they're going to need a housing voucher. Yeah. Um, they're probably not. And there should be a reason, kind of, that they need that. Yeah. You know, if they're unemployable, let's address the reasons that they're unemployable. Kind of, but that's not necessarily your department. Right. So yeah, we, we did what we were asked to do and we did it. With, um, professionalism, I think it was good for my agency because we did it so well. Um, that we got a lot of, of good, you know, recognition as we deserved. And also, should this happen again, I hope that agencies who've been doing this work for a long time can be at the table. When program design happens. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, you know, it's over Unfortunately, we saw a lot of these families. I think that got assistance Still now they have much bigger TVs than they used to have. Oh, it's actually made it. I mean, we just don't live in a place where the average wage for your barista or even your firefighters or your school teacher is Can afford um, barely even a two bedroom apartment, right? So, you know, we that remains a big problem, which has been kind of as exasperated by the inflation and Housing real estate prices rents, right? Like if you got a nice three bedroom one bath apartment building you can get like More than 2, 000 for each one of those things, these days. I refer to a report often that says that the living wage, or the wage needed, to afford a basic two bedroom apartment in Larimer County now is 29 an hour. Oh, wow. So, and we strive to pay our employees a living wage. Yeah. But, I mean, I don't have everybody at 29. Yeah. That's a high wage. I don't think I pay all my 29, you know. Yep. Um, It's an economic issue that, you know, thankfully our chamber is forward thinking and, um, have, we've partnered with a lot of organizations to really try to help balance this a bit so that we can still have a workforce here. Yeah, no, it's important. I mean, uh, even like thinking about hiring employees, uh, you know, It used to be kind of, you know, drive until you qualify, right? But then you now with, you know, gas prices are down now, but you know, who knows? And it's expensive in Evans and Greeley and Loveland and compare, you know, not as expensive as Fort Collins, but it's getting there, getting there. It's not far behind. I think the community foundations intersections report said that Larimer and Weld are going to grow by a cumulative 92 percent in the next. In the last 15 years and the next 15 years, that 30 year span. And I think what we're, what we know now is probably most of that growth will have to be in weld. Right. But it does show how much we have already grown in Larimer too. We're kind of built out in a lot of respects, you know, with our infrastructure, access to water. Right. All that stuff. Um, wow. Okay. So, um, we kind of touched on a little bit, but what would. What would you have done differently of that program, aside from making it, you know, shorter injections, I guess more available, but smaller duration injections is at least one thing and qualifying people, you know, we've been doing, we've been doing emergency housing assistance for a long time at neighbor to neighbor. By and large, people don't want to have to come in our doors. They don't want to have to ask for assistance. Um, we hear very regularly, Oh my gosh, this is, this is a godsend, but I've never done this before. And I don't ever want to do this again. And so we need to honor that. And, and what we want to do is just work with people who are in this moment and say, you know, it's okay that that's why we have a safety net. Now let's not rely on it because it's not a good place to be. What can we do moving forward? And so it would be really more, I think, assessing each household's needs and then meeting those Instead of a, you know, casting this really wide net across everyone and that's easier said than done in emergency response So I I would have liked, you know in my perfect world, we would have had the same amount of money But maybe I would have had twice as long to spend it in more strategic ways. Yeah. Fair. Okay. Um, how did you get here? Like, uh, can we talk about your, like, maybe just the work career first. We'll jump all the way in the time machine to first grade or something later. Oh my God, I love it. But tell me about, like, getting into, uh, non profit work. I was born in, uh, I was born a social worker back in 1979. I had like a clipboard in my hand and everything. Um, no, I just knew, like, even in sixth grade, I was president of the Save the Earth Club at my elementary school. Um. So, this is just what I was born to do. I just would have a prayer when I was a child, you know, help me to help other people. And that's a blessing to get to do that for my work. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. So how did I end up in Colorado? Yeah. So, 12 years ago, or I guess a little bit more than that, we started with our boys, my husband Travis and our two boys, started camping. And one of the places that we loved to come in Colorado was Poudre Canyon. Okay. And then I would cry. at least four of the eight hours home to Lawrence, Kansas, where I'm from. And, uh, after a couple of years of doing that, we thought, what are we, are we supposed to like move there? What is this? And Travis feel the same way? Or was he like, Kelly, you so crazy. We're not just going to pick up our lives. And now he's kind of like, I don't know, I just, I'll go where you go. I suppose he was pretty supportive. All right. All right. So we tried to move here. And my, my parents kind of probably could have had me stick around a little bit longer with just family time so I didn't get any job offers and I look back on that and go yeah that was I did not have a ticket to leave. It wasn't ready yet. Nope, but A couple years later, I kept doing it. We would come out to Poudre Canyon and then I would cry for the whole way home. And so we thought, well, maybe we'll just put out some more resumes, you know, and just see. And if I don't get any hits, I love Lawrence, Kansas, too, so that's okay. And what does, what does Travis do? Well, he's done a lot of things. See, the job search was really focused on me because I only know how to run non profits. That's, I know how to do one thing. And he knows how to do all the things. So, back then, he was a realtor. And before that, he was the youth pastor at our church. And before that, he was in sales. And then he was a handyman. And he could do all the things. And now he's back in sales, um, here. But, uh, so anyway. Then a couple years later, we tried again and it was time. And I got several doors opening and chose Fort Collins because it's a lot like Lawrence. Just so lovely. University town, right? University town. Just awesome. How big is Lawrence now? It's still smaller than Fort Collins. I want to say it's maybe 130. Oh, is it that big? Okay. Cool. That's a guess. I'm kind of out of touch. My wife's aunt lived in Fort Collins. next town over, like, not Kansas City, but Olathe? Okay. Yep. Yeah. So, but we stopped through Lawrence. Usually when we were, we've only visited her two or three times, but I think we always stopped through Lawrence because it was just a cool little college town vibe, you know, gather yourself before you go engage with the family for the whole Thanksgiving weekend. Yes. Anyway, so, so you had lots of doors opening and when did that bring you here? I moved in late November of 2012. And then the family followed me about a month later. Oh wow, okay. And I feel like you and I must have met within a couple of years at least, if not sooner than that. I don't remember the circumstance. I remember seeing you and Travis at lots of music shows and stuff like that, uh, in the days since. Well when I arrived at Neighbor to Neighbor, the organization was on the struggle bus. Full line. Hard times. Um, you know, it was 2012. They had not weathered the housing recession all that well because it's a housing entity. And so, I think what, one of my first, um, activities that was so fun and I met so many people and maybe you, was through the chamber, red carpet, uh, it was just, you know, helping the community understand we're still here. You know. So, Support us, please. Uh, and so it was fun and you were obviously early in your career Otherwise, you probably wouldn't have taken that job or they under Told you about how much struggle bus what's going on? We were pretty honest I was and you're like here's my chance to really make a difference I was the whole like third time's the charm, you know I was the third one to try to get in there and kind of fix it. Oh, wow, and it worked Um, but I like I'm a cheerleader by nature. I like encouraging teams and leading and pulling the pieces back together. So together with the board and the community and our funders and our staff, we pulled it back together. It's been really fun. Yeah. Um, Like, is this a, this is probably none of my business, but like, do you want to be here for another 20 years? Do you want to try to turn something else around? Like, uh, you've been tremendously successful over that 10 years or so now, right? Is that right? I love it. I think, you know, I was a non profit director back in Lawrence before I moved here and I loved that too. It was just still my hometown and it was kind of time to see what else was out there a little bit. Thank you. So we don't have any plans to leave. I don't have any plans to leave Neighbor to Neighbor. Uh, I just It's not too easy yet? No. Okay. I'm not mad. Alright, well I guess you seem like that kind of person that if it gets too easy then you might go look for something harder to do. Yeah, I do love a challenge, but it's still a challenge. So, it's, you know, there's been so many different phases of our organization. It's so different than the agency I walked into. And it's also so different than the agency it was at the height of the pandemic, which is a welcome kind of return to a new normal. Yeah. Can we, um, can we kind of take us through the neighbor to neighbor journey? Like give me a little bit of an idea, like, What was your staff like when you arrived? You don't have to get into full specific. I was like, imagine I could go pull all the reports, right? Cause it's nonprofit reports, all those things. But was it a much smaller, I assume? I think I maybe was staff member number 11, um, in 2012. And then by about 2019, 2017, you know, we were acquiring another nonprofit. Acquiring these, um, yes, kind of. Yep. And then acquiring these homes and building our portfolio out a little bit. So we thought we were, we thought, I thought we were hot shit back in 2017. We are doing so well. And then by 2019, we were kind of tired. We're like, Oh my gosh, we've been so busy. You know, we're so busy. This is going to be, let's chill. This is going to be the year of refinement in 2020. We're just going to like, refine everything and, you know, remember our value of excellence. And then, you know, it's just our, our productivity expanded by like a thousand percent in six months. So it was not the year of refinement, but it was very exciting for, for us at, from an organizational standpoint, it was not exciting for America, but as a nonprofit leader, it was. It's it's much more fun to go up. And then what I had to learn is what goes up must come down. And it was not as fun to come down in 2023. So the staffing number, I was number 11. In 2019, right before the pandemic in early 2020, we were at 19 staff, really nice size organization. At the height of the pandemic, we were 67. That is not my favorite size. You just don't have proximity to staff and they don't feel like they have proximity to you. And then now we're at 30, which is really starting to feel like right size again. Wow. Was that hard? Um, Like they were full time employees and stuff like that, I guess. And basically frontline more, a little bit more managers, directors, I suppose, or whatever, more programs that you've maybe some of them you still do. Some of them you stopped. Well, most of our programs continue. The funding sources changed dramatically in 2023. And we didn't really have a lot of notice about that happening. So we did two rounds of layoffs that were much more abrupt, at least the first one was, than I know I would have felt comfortable with. Oh my gosh, if we don't let these people go right away, we're gonna bleed to death quickly. The sky is falling. I'm going to give them as much notice as I can, which means I need to announce this change next week. Well, So, that's what we did. And you got to make a decision on who, like, can you talk about the criteria that you applied? Was it on seniority? Was it on role? Who do you like the best? You know, yeah, we were careful. A combination of all those. We were totally careful in that. Um, yeah. The first was if you weren't hired during the pandemic, you weren't included in our layoff consideration. Oh, wow. Because we had hired so many people, we had like 45 people. And so they didn't have as much seniority with us. So that was the first criteria. And then the second one was where they lived, because we went fully remote, and my staff was more productive remote. So we were able to hire people, we were able to hire former employees in Texas. Vermont, North Carolina, um, who, who we knew could like hit the ground running on day one. And then we hired a lot of Weld County staff. And so the second criteria for the layoffs was if you don't live in Larimer County. And then I don't know, after that, there were more, but Um, that, that was like 80 percent of the people. Right. Wow. Well, it sounds, I mean, at least you were kind of objective about it and I think that was fair. They were amazing people and, and I hope that they continue to do amazing things. They came to help when you needed a lot of help. They were rock stars. Yeah. Um, so what, what's your funding mix now? Like, uh, between rent, donations, and, uh, Grants of various things and I guess is probably the three kind of breakdown buckets grants is still the biggest one and we still have one state grant that is pandemic era and that one there's still a few dollars left in that bucket It's a different program. It's for mortgage assistance. Oh, so it's helping people avoid foreclosure So our numbers are still skewed. Which is probably important now with people's arms adjusting and stuff like that. Yep. All right, different problem kind of that was designed for but yep. Okay. Anyway, sorry. I'm a scroll chaser. Yeah, so we still have that. So I don't really know where we'll end up. My, my budget went from three million to In, you know, February of 2020 to at one point it was about 35 million. Now I honestly, I don't really know what it is because it's such a moving target. It's, it's going to land somewhere around 10. Wow. A million, I think. And did you like grow your portfolio of properties during that time too? Not much. It's hard because I feel like we've been priced out of the market. Right. Yeah. Um, no, not during the pandemic. We haven't. Well, I was thinking to myself, because I assume, um, I don't know if you have a different, like, holding company for your properties versus a non profit or what, but do you, like, you get a property tax waiver on your properties? Is that kind of a competitive advantage? We still pay property taxes. You do, okay. Of course it's somehow complicated. Right. It's less than normal people pay probably. Yeah, maybe so. I think maybe we go through housing catalyst or something to pay it, but I know we still pay it. Okay, gotcha. Uh huh. Because that would be a nice competitive advantage, right? It would be. Like you could have lower rents than others. Yeah. Something that we're, we really want more property. One, because it helps us pay the bills. And two, because we are an ethical landlord. We like the way we treat people. Yeah, yeah. And many landlords are, and we're one of the good ones. And so we would like to grow our portfolio, and it's hard because it's super expensive to buy anything here. Who knew? Um, so our, our hope is that as some of our long time smaller landlords in town decide to get out of this property management world, maybe they would consider selling to us. It's a mission minded local organization that, or you would probably even accept donations, right? Or donations. Absolutely. And you know, I think, I don't know, I don't think it's a pipe dream because I, for many of these landlords, we've been supporting them for many years. So we're, that's my strategy is to just kind of put that out and say, tired of all the regulation? Well, yeah, and once they got their kind of retirement sorted and the, you know, the kids are doing fine already, whatever Even just selling it For 20 percent less without a realtor, right? That makes it back in your opportunity zone again And I there are so many kind landlords. I mean in many ways It's a cornerstone of our community these these people who have influence and power By owning people's homes and they're they are keeping rents low and they are doing whatever they can to not Displace that family. So I know that they don't want a Investor to come in and flip that place. Yeah Which is very likely You're probably not like the hands on deliverer of training on the budgeting and different things like that But can you talk to me about like if there's somebody out there? you know a 20 or a 24 year old that's like, you know I just got to do these few things and my job now pays twenty six dollars an hour. So I'm getting closer to that the the It's not a big thing of renting or buying or whatever. What are those big principles to set people on the right track, if you can speak to that? Yep. Well, actually, financial coaching had, had been a component of almost all of our programs, but it hadn't really been pulled together to where we could offer it as a stand alone service. So, um, So until this year, it was something that was included in a housing service at Neighbor to Neighbor. And a year ago, I hired one of my board members, um, a banker, to be our director of financial programs. So Janice is her name. And, uh, One of the first things she did is go get a big grant to build up financial coaching on its own. So now people in the community who aren't accessing a neighbor to neighbor service can come just for that. And to answer your question, what it could look like is let's first take an individualized approach to what is your budget? Do you have one? Where is your money going? How much money do you make? Is that where you want to be? What are your goals? If home ownership is a goal, then we're going to look at, you know, maybe credit repair. And helping people work on repairing that. So it's kind of like strategic planning almost, where the first big step is to assess the current situation. Absolutely. For all of us. Um, I had a staff member once who would always say, you know, home ownership can be for anyone. It's how long are you going to have to work at it and what are your unique steps to achieve success. And we've seen that. We have a remarkable percentage of our home buyer ed clients be, become successful homeowners in this market. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Mm hmm. Alma um, just got married about a year and a half ago and they chose to. They bought a trailer and on a rented spot off Harmony, but they busted their asses and they paid it off in like a year. And they fixed it up. So it's now it's worth it. I don't know, bought it for 30 and they're going to be able to sell it for 60, 65 and that's going to be their down payment when they buy something. And yes, uh, in the meantime, they get to live in a. Small modest trailer, but you know, she's just being smart about like Can I do go faster if I fix this place up in this and that or if I just try to work harder? Well, how do I earn enough by working harder good plan? Yeah So anyway, I'm proud of her and that path that she's carving toward kind of that right thing generational wealth for her family Yeah, get started on it now. Yeah Um, so the other, I guess that's the first big thing. And then I guess if you, if you find out some things aren't aligned, you're like, Oh, I want to buy a house, but my credit's junk, and we just don't make enough money right now. You know, that could include like, okay, here's some options, here's some, here's some, do you, you don't get into like the career pathways or things like that. I wanted to, it's probably good. My board slapped my wrist and said, stop it. Oh, I wrote the grant, you know I did, um, but. It's probably good in hindsight that we didn't get it because I think 12 programs and pulling in, you know, what I think will be a very robust financial coaching service is probably plenty. And then like, where do you, where would you refer somebody to for like vocational efforts? Are there good programs in that space right now? I think that there are. I think our workforce center. I know like PSS does that on their own. I guess workforce center, I'm sure. Yep. And then I think Larimer County. Well, even the Chamber is kind of working on some Workforce 2. 0 things. I don't know if that specifically includes as much training. I'd kind of still like to get into that, but It seems like there might be a little gap in services there. I mean, we tried it at the Matthews House and it kicked our ass. Really? Well, because we acquired Education Life Training Center. Okay. Uh, when Tracy Mead left there to go to PSS and we, like, Absorb them into our great program, but it like yeah, it just didn't work Matthew's house is so critical for youth services. I mean not that it isn't aligned but like You know, you just, the first thing you think of with the Mathews House is changing kids lives. Right, right. So, but that, that off mission there, kinda? Um, but that can also be achieved through Well, we're trying to disrupt generational poverty. Right, through post development. It was more the way I looked at it. Absolutely. Um, but you're right. Yeah. It was probably, but it also isn't housing related directly. I mean, I know. And I'm like, I'm tempted. Alright, somebody out there, uh, and me and Kelly will be on your board. There you go. Done. It's tempting though, because a lot of clients come through our doors already. And so, is it smart to just go ahead and offer a catch all, hey, while you're here, you know, do these other three things. So. I don't know. Yeah. Um. What else would you have me know about kind of neighbor to neighbor as an organization, um, or we can jump in the time machine to Lawrence? Let's see. Um, I just, I guess I'll just put out gratitude to the community because, uh, we've been around a long time both in Loveland for 25 years and in Fort Collins for 54 and love working with our donors and our, you know, the foundations here. Can people volunteer for you too? And our volunteers, we have, today is the last day. Day for Janet. I'll not share her last name because she would not appreciate that. Um, a long time Loveland volunteer, like 13 years. Um, and all of our Loveland volunteers are that way. They staff our front desk and that it is not an easy front desk to staff. You've got 12 programs with changing people calling people coming in in crisis. And these volunteers are just, like, so incredible. So, I guess, it's just, I'm honored to get to work alongside them. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. Um, do you need to take a short break or anything like that? You happy? I'm okay. Okay. Um, well, let's roll to, uh, the time machine. Fun. Did you, uh, were you born and raised in Lawrence? Yep. Tell me about the setting of your birth. Lawrence Memorial Hospital. Oldest child. Oldest, yep, my brother. My brother gave my parents a rent for their money. And so, when, uh, We were in middle school, my brother Chris and I. My parents moved us into the country. South of town. I see. Into a smaller school district. Oh, interesting. So that my brother's misbehavior would be limited. Yes, yes, and you thought you were being punished for his misbehavior? I thought my It was a good move, uh, Baldwin City, Kansas is where I went to high school. Okay. Is that just like 20 miles away or something like that? Yeah. Um, can we go back like to that kindergarten, Kelly, second grade, um, were you always like super achiever and miss congeniality and mature for your age. And I guess all those things, the oldest kid athlete to not really, not so much tried, but just more of an activist from the beginning. And what were your folks, uh, what were your folks up to? Like, what was the setting there? My dad is an entrepreneur. I get a lot of my, just excitement around entrepreneurial ideas from him. Yeah. And then my mom was an office manager at KU, so I am a diehard Jayhawk. And she went to KU. She graduated with her degree while I was in 7th grade, um, something like that. So it was really special to, I remember watching her at night, you know, she worked. Well, that wasn't super normal in those days. Dad would work, she would work, then she would come home and she would be at the dining room table with the lamp doing her homework. And you know, back then I, I think she probably did most of the cooking and most of the cleaning and most of the grocery shopping for all of us, so. And what was your dad's business? Um. Or did he have lots of different things? Okay. So a variety of things. And then by the time I was in high school he was a real estate broker. Okay. Yeah. As a consultant, as in a way of saying mafia or anything like that? I don't think so. Early in his years. I'm not clear. Yeah, he was at IBM. Oh, I see. And that was fun. But he was like a technician, like fixing the keyboards and things. Um, and then he became just like a business consultant. Interesting. Mm hmm. Yeah. Zig Ziglar. I remember him introducing me to that. Yeah. like getting really into that. Well, and IBM had a culture back then, and maybe still, that like if I'm smart enough to work at IBM, I can pretty much. do anything, even if I've never done it before, which is generally wrong. HP had that same culture for a while, which was generally, you know, they would come out and buy businesses and be like, Oh, this will be easy. I'll just run this little business in my spare time and make it work better. And then, but maybe I am a true child of IBM though, because I do believe that confidence is like, Half of it? Whether you think you can or think you cannot, uh, you are telling the truth. Yes. No, it's a, I, that I agree. Yeah. So, so how does that confidence come to pass? Uh, how does it, has it maybe impacted your journey? Was that like even running for city student council and things like that? Uh, I just, I think I like to tell people what to do, to be in charge. I really do. It excites me. I just like leading a team. Yeah. Fair. So tell me about this little town that you moved to. And were you still in middle school or approaching high school at the time? I started ninth grade at the high school as a new kid. Perfect. Well, I guess everybody was new then though, right? At least kind of, no, they'd all gone to school together. How big a town? I don't even know. So how was that? Like, were you the cute new girl or were you? Yeah. So that wasn't that hard. I guess I, you know, honestly, that's bringing back a memory of my parents had a rule that I couldn't date until I was 16. Oh. And I appreciated that rule.'cause I could say sorry. Yeah, sorry. Love it. So, um, how was your relationship with your brother and those. Oh, we're super tight. Yeah. Oh, we always thought that. Even when he was misbehaving. We're very different. Getting you moved out to the country and stuff. Yeah, we're very different. I don't think my parents made it clear then that that's why they were moving. They just said, Oh, look at this house on a lake and isn't it beautiful and let's move there. Right. Right. Um, and I understand why they did that now. Um, and he's doing great. I mean, he has, he's just awesome, but yeah, we're, we've always been super close. Is it my, uh, mischievousness that's makes you like me? Cause I remind you of your brother. Yeah. No, I don't think you're, I don't think you're at that level. I'm more of a stay out of trouble kind of guy. But I am mischievous. He's just fun. People, my senior year I'm not fun? No, you are fun too. You have lots of friends. I'm more friends than anybody in town. Um, but senior year, you know, I'm like, supposed to be the senior, and people I still remember in high school would come up to me and say, You're Chris's sister. But that's so annoying. He's a freshman. But yes, I am. That's cool. I like it. So, uh, you're getting ready to graduate. Uh, so you're five years, no, uh, like when you were getting ready to graduate from high school. Oh, okay. You're five years younger than me. Okay. Uh, cause I was born in 74, which means that would have been 87, no, 97? 98. 98. Um, and what's going on in the world at that time? 2000 is coming on and stuff, I guess. So what was that first big girl job? Or did you go right into the workforce after? I worked all through high school. I was a waitress, and then my first after college job, well, I worked at a group home during college. Hard work supporting people with intellectual disabilities. And then my first real job was an adoption social worker. Oh, wow. My wife, Jill, worked for Hope and Home in Colorado Springs. Amazing. For a couple years. Wow, incredible work. Yeah, so that's wild, wild, uh, Setting the, uh, and then, uh, like you were front line, I presume? Yep, I was an adoption worker. I had a whole, you know, case load of moms. And, yeah. Is there any, uh, like stories you still remember from those days? Either tragic or amazing? Yeah, one has an amazing, amazing just story I think of. of selflessness on behalf of the birth mom. I facilitated this adoption in California. We're, we're a national adoption agency. And so even though I was based in Kansas city, uh, California was my territory. And so I would facilitate the adoption entirely over the phone. I didn't get to go there or anything. But in California, they had what we viewed to be a very dangerous law in that Moms biological moms had up to 30 days after placement of the baby to change their minds Yeah, i've heard about that before and that is so sad And so I had that happen. Okay, I had this sweet sweet sweet um birth mother who Placed her baby. Um hoping for a better life for her child into the arms of these ecstatic Ecstatic This young couple, um, who had just been hoping and hoping and hoping and hoping for a baby. And, you know, they were watching the calendar. Um, to, to In hopes that the 30 days to expire to come through and the day before it did I got a call from birth mom That she had changed her mind. Well, so I had to call Adoptive mom who literally is like in the nursery with oh, wow And in the meantime birth mom is like nursing this baby and stuff. No, no, no No, okay, so they're separated babies with the adoptive family. Oh, wow. Okay moved in to her nursery. That's even worse in some ways horrible and um So I, I called the family to let them know this horrible news, um, and I couldn't get dad and so I broke the news to mom. And then dad, adoptive dad, then calls me, you know, mad. Why did you give that news to my wife? She, I didn't, I didn't want you to give that news to her. You know, give it to me and I'll try to do the best I can with it. I'm like, I'm so sorry, but that's the news and we're going to have to like, organize like a meet up. This is horrible and I'm sorry. So the baby spent, um, one more, uh, night, They met up, baby went to bio mom, um, who I'm sure, you know, I, I only know the story from adoptive parents, um, cause she didn't communicate with me all that much. She spent one night with her biological baby and then changed her mind back and gave the baby back to her parents who then got to raise her. But I mean, it just, I think that will always stay in my mind because of the emotions all around, right? All around. Interesting. Yeah. How long did you stick around that step in the journey? I only worked for that agency two and a half years or something like that. And then I became a social worker in Lawrence because I think I was maybe ready to start a family and I didn't want to commute to Kansas City anymore. Oh, did you meet Travis already? Yeah, I was his waitress. Okay. Tell me about that. Uh, we got married before we, before I even graduated from college. Okay. Um. So. Well, I'll leave that So, yeah, I was his waitress at First Watch in Lawrence, Kansas. Oh, First Watch. Yeah. Was it First Watch already? Oh, wow. Interesting. I had Raino Cesar from The Egg and I on here. I guess that would have been First Watch, it was before First Watch acquired all the Colorado stuff and whatever else. Okay, cool. So that's how we met. And then we got married, uh, right before my senior year of college. So I was still doing group homework when we were married and then got the adoption job. And then, yeah, so a few years into our marriage, I went back to Lawrence to get a nonprofit gig outside of adoption. And then Disability Services was a love. Oh, okay. And then I did that social work gig for about three years before I became the ED of that agency. Oh, okay. Um, and then stayed executive director for six years. So you went from front line right to the executive director in that, uh, tell me about that. Yeah, I was 26 when I became an executive director. And what was that, like, what was the circumstance there? Like. The circumstance was my boss was not doing a good job. And so I was doing her job, and the board asked you privately, what's going on here? I asked the board for a private meeting so that I could share with them a few insights into why they needed to do their jobs better, and as a result, they fired her and hired me. And I did not know that that was going to happen. I just wanted them to look alive. And I got that job. How, uh, how Like, I'm guessing that you weren't even really too scared to I wanted that job. I'd been doing it already. A lot of 26 year olds would be pretty intimidated to go tell this board that they're being a bunch of dummies. Yeah, it wasn't ideal to go around your boss's back. I didn't love that, but Well, I assume that you had confronted some of her behavior stuff directly with her or whatever. Yeah, it wasn't a win situation. Either she's gonna go or I'm gonna go and I'm doing her job, so what do you guys want to do? Sorry, that's not funny. Yeah. Do you want to, uh, call her out or anything like that? Just kidding. Kind, kind woman. Any of the board members that you'd like to say? No. They did a good job. Yeah. They actually acted. They did. Yeah. No, it's, uh, it's nice. Yeah. Was it a small organization? Tiny? It was. We grew it. Yeah. But, yeah. So how many years were you the director then? Six. Okay. Basically took us around to The mountains we're calling. Yeah, looking for places in Colorado and eventually finding one. Yep. What a neat career journey you've had so far. Yeah, I know, right? It's been great. Um, I'm gonna, uh, call for a short break. Cause I gotta go potty. Okay, sounds good. And my beer is almost empty. Do you want another beer? I'll drink mine. You haven't drank hardly any of yours yet. I've been keeping you talking too much. It's good. Alright, we'll be right back. Okay. And we're back again, and for real this time. Sorry about that exploding beer trick. Um, so, uh, do you know what's coming now? Did you read your format overview thing? I don't remember getting that. Oh, maybe I missed it. Maybe I didn't. Yeah. There's a guest release, uh, email and kind of format overview. I wondered. thing. But I might have forgotten to send it to you. We'll talk about whatever you want to talk about. Yeah. Well, so we're approaching the, uh, we always talk about faith, family, and politics in here. Okay. Yeah. And then we'll close with the loco experience, which is the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share. Cool. Live and in person here. Which, I mean, if we would have chosen to smoke that joint, then that would have been a pretty crazy experience for a, for a community and non profit leader that pretty much tries not to get busted when she's doing things like that. Should try harder. I could tell from the concerts I've seen you at. Yeah. I digress. Yes. Um, uh, do you have a preference of where we would start? Oh, let me get this silly paper towel roll off the table. Oh, okay. It's like, not quite blocking the camera. Yeah, it's a real place. Um, yeah, faith, family, or politics. Do you want to start with one of those? Yeah. Family. Okay. Uh, I wanted to ask about the, like picking up this cute guy at first watch. Um, tell me about that first conversation. Very cute. And I was his waitress with a group of people and I knew one of the girls that was at his table too. So we had kind of a mutual acquaintance, but I do remember going back in the kitchen to prep the drinks or whatever, and jumping up on the counter so that I could spy. See if he was, like, sitting by a girl he was with, or anything like that. I went back home, my roommate, I remember telling her, she's my best friend still, Debbie, I just, I was always telling her about the cute guys I served breakfast to, and this one I said, I just feel like I'm going to see him again. And then we did, and then, I think maybe the next time I bumped into him, he asked me out, and we Dated for maybe a year were engaged for six months and married within a year and a half nice Just just like that easy peasy pretty much. Yeah for the first Quite a while. Yeah, we've been married 23 years And well And then it usually usually after three to six years guys start to turn into an asshole and they need to have some correction Was that we both did that at more like 14 14 14. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, Jill I went seven really before we really Yeah. Butted heads and, you know, had something to do with me, like, becoming an entrepreneur and leaving a life of comfortable middle class banker stuff behind, I suppose. Yeah. It's nice to be on the other side of those times and still be together. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a very galvanizing kind of thing. Um, what, uh, what was it that really set Travis apart from other boys that wanted to get your digits? Oh, he's so authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, he doesn't put on any airs for anyone. He is always who he is. Yeah. I dig it. Um, what would he say to the same question, do you suppose? Um, I don't know. I'm positive, usually. Yeah? Yeah. I think that's true. Um, yeah. Kind of like, cheerful. I guess happy. Okay. Um, can we talk more about your mom and dad? Sure. And we'll come back to Travis if you want to. Sure. You want to shower him with any more praises or love, anything? Yeah, he's great. Do you have a nickname for him? No, I just call him Trav. Okay. Um, how about, uh, Mom and Pops, uh, they're still with us? Yeah, they're still both around. Dad and Mom got divorced, I don't know, close to 15 years ago, uh, when I first started trying to move here, and it wasn't the right time for me to bail. Um, so yeah, Mom still lives in Lawrence, Kansas. She is doing great. Just had a big birthday. Okay. And then dad and his wife live in the Ozarks on Table Rock Lake. Just lovely. Tell me about, uh, Ozarks. Have you been out there to visit, I gather? Yep. And I worked at a camp when I was in college in the Ozarks. It's so beautiful down there. I guess it's not that far probably from Kansas City, right? Maybe Five hours? Yeah. Yeah. That's like the Black Hills from here, right? Yep. Yeah. Probably a similar kind of relationship. You know, it's this kind of not very well known place, but it's not that far away. Right. Close enough that he still goes back to Kansas City area for like poker nights sometimes. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I get to go visit him. He lives about an hour from my best friend who lives in Bentonville. And so in a couple weeks I'm going to go down and visit both of them. What would you say is, uh, one characteristic that, uh, transferred from both your mother and your father to you? My mom's is so easy. She's so compassionate. Yeah. Um, always had us run out iced tea for the garbage pickup crew. Just always looking out for her neighbors. Um, and I don't do that to the extent that she does. And then my dad, He is an entrepreneur and just wants to know how to do things better and like systems improvement and leadership. Would you have an interest in being an actual entrepreneur at some point in time? Is that intriguing to you? I really didn't view myself as one. I agree. It probably isn't fair just since my money isn't, I mean some of it is. You won't have to file bankruptcy if it doesn't work right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I. I don't really care if it's like official or not. I feel that that spirit is, is fun and I appreciate it in other people so much too. Fair. I dig that. Um, how many, uh, littles do you have? We have two boys. They're 17 and 19. Oh, wow. They're not that little. Wow, I guess not. Yeah, they're about out of the nest. They are. One of them is. We, uh, we do a one word description of the children around here. Okay. Um, would you care to effort that on, uh, and, and give him a name and a, a little more color if you'd, if you'd care to. Walker is my younger kid. He's 17 and he's at Rocky starting his senior year. Um, I'm going to give him the word funny. Oh, he's got a quiet humor that comes out that, uh, we'll just knock you down. It's, um, I'm thinking about a couple of people that fit that description in my own life right now. He's an engineer. There's no doubt. Like I was born a social worker. He is born an engineer, but like with this, like unexpected, like just perfect delivery. Uh, and then Jackson. He's very thoughtful. Yeah. Mm hmm. And what's Jackson up to? You said he's out of the house now. We just moved him, uh, he's starting his sophomore year at CU. Okay. That's gonna be his first year at CU. And we just moved him last week into a house with his buddies. Okay. Okay. So, super fun year ahead of, for him. Does he like CU more, or he just wanted to be at least a little ways out of town, but not too far away? He's super excited. started college last year at CSU. Oh, and just like had like a very mediocre year, like the social opportunities didn't quite hit. I think like we were expecting them to based on our experience. So his friends in Boulder had a great time and now he's going to go, he got into the business school and so he's going to go do that. And I'm excited for him. Dig it. Um, Anything else that comes to mind when I say family? You got doggers, or cats, or I said goodbye to both of my old dogs in the last two years. Oh, wow. And then got two new dogs. Okay. And so, I like having two at a time, because they just play, and they're best friends. Yeah, yeah. You know, so. What kind of flavored critters? Right now we have, Penny is a Lab. She's a Yellow Lab. And then we got a Rescue Murphy. He's only 9 months old. And I think he is like a White Australian Shepherd. Oh cool. Mostly. They said Lab Mix. He's not that. Uh, but he is. It's so cute and so fun. Do you guys still go camping and doing stuff out in the country a lot? Yep. I love my garden. I love to be, I have a big backyard with chickens and my garden and my dogs and I just feel really grateful to get to have every morning out there. It's so peaceful and lovely. Hatched my own chicks for the first time this year. Oh, you did? They're doing great. Awesome. I love seeing them all three of them. I only have three babies and I don't know six others but so that's been good. Isn't six the limit I think? Six is the limit in Fort Collins. Oh you're out of the country. Yeah. Oh you're on. I mean we live in town but we live in this little carve out like. Is that like a fine or something like that? No, it's at Horsetooth and Shields. Oh yeah, I know the neighborhood there. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting, uh, thing. You're so lucky. We are. We've never really talked about chickens and farming and much. A little bit. Yeah. What's your, what's your pride in your garden? Uh, space, like is there something that you're really good at growing? Jalapenos are really hitting this year. Really? Man, I'm gonna have to drink a lot of jalapeno limes. Like a lot. I'm growing good peppers for the first time this year. I've got a poblano and an anaheim, and I've harvested a bunch of anaheims already, and it's got just full of peppers. Right. My serrano's too, and shishitos. I've always struggled with peppers, but this year, I'm a tomato guy normally, but this year my peppers are rocking it, as well as my tomatoes. So, um, if you were going to give, uh, gardening advice to the uninitiated, what, where would you start? Gosh, I don't know. Uh, weed. Weed it? I didn't used to do that too much because I don't, I didn't like it, but it does pay off. Drip, drip sprinklers that go right on the plants is way better because then the weeds don't actually grow. Uh, yes. And, uh, chicken shit. Yeah. Oh, and lots of nitrogen. Very good fertilizer. Fair enough. Um, what else in the family? Is there any like, You mentioned, uh, Debbie, I think, earlier. Is there any gal pals or otherwise that are like family for you? You know what, this will lead us into faith. Sure. Um, I, um, wasn't raised in the church, uh, I became a believer when I was at KU, and so then Before meeting Travis, I guess. Yep, before meeting Travis. And so then I was, I am a, I'm still a Christian, but I have left the church. Okay. Um, and so, but that has just kind of recently happened. We were avid churchgoers when we lived in Lawrence. I was on the board of our church, and then After Travis worked at Kohler Faucets, the pastor recruited him to fill the youth pastor role. So we were both youth leaders and, um, so then he actually went on staff for a few years. Just really, that was a big part of our lives in Lawrence. Um, we're small group leaders, had a lot of, Just, um, richness added to our lives from our small groups. And so then we, we tried to get that kind of same thing happening here in Fort Collins. And went to a lot of different churches. Um, ended up at Vineyard for a while. Um, tried to be small group leaders there. And it just kind of wasn't, it felt a little bit more maybe like a Kansas thing. Forced somehow? I don't know, like, Yeah, so we just tried, and then it just like didn't work. And then, we were pretty disappointed, that's a vast understatement, in um, Evangelical America's love of Donald Trump, and we left the church over it. Really? Oh, but I, that seems You know, I think there's a lot of churches that don't love Donald Trump too, right? And it is a very interesting marriage But I it seems to me like Donald Trump isn't important enough to I know I know this up here in my brain But you still love Jesus. Yeah, he's cool, right? I do miss the fellowship I miss the guiding light that I'm like focusing on. Yeah. Yeah and the structure around You Something, but I, so far at this moment in my life, I do not miss organized religion. Yeah. I don't miss this like vibe that we know more than you. Mm. And we have it figured out and you don't Mm. You should come to our church sometime. Yeah. Uh, our, our pastors Mm-Hmm. generally are comfortable mocking both the Yeah. Former president and the current president. Yeah. um, from the pulpit and, and it's, it's about his. non dogmatic as a church that I've been able to find a very little, you know, a loose kinship with other kind of sister churches and stuff, but not much, a whole lot of. Uh, humility, like part of our church, we, we have like four different pastors. Because if you just have one pastor, then that son of a bitch is going to get all egotistical, probably have an affair, and then fuck up the whole church, and it's going to fall apart. And he doesn't have anybody to tell him he's being a dumbass. So we have those kind of solutions set up to recognize the, anyway, open invitation if reinvestigate. And we've got a pretty good small group community. Thank you. That's cool. Better than most. Although Jill and I are total slackers with it, sorry. Sorry, the after party life group. You know, you, you just need to find what is right for you. And I'm still on that journey. And hopefully a lot of people are taking time in their lives to figure out their spiritual lives and not overlooking it because it is this huge part of who we are. Um, and so in lieu of that fellowship that I was used to having, I did back to friendship, my own, what I, what we call soul circle. Okay. So I pulled a few, just like really like soulful, sweet hearted people that I knew women and we get together only every other month, which is not often enough for me, but it is where the group kind of feels like we can meet. And we do talk about like, um, just philosophical. We read, we read various books together. It isn't Christian based. It's more, um, But it's not a Christian exclusionary either, I presume. No. Yeah. Interesting. But it is just to honor that, like, part of our soul that otherwise isn't, like, nourished. Oh, we get pretty lonely, uh, if we just put ourselves on little islands and stuff. Or even Yeah. And I think to your point, you know, like, I know, I know so many Christians who, who are not Trump supporters and they, they don't believe that he exhibits the fruits of the spirit. But, but I just, I am still needing to move. Past the fact that where was the unified response? Where was the loud voice when he started holding up Bibles and things and just really I think not Exhibiting the traits of Jesus. I just wish that there would have been a more you not united Voice that said no that is in it. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Um, I watched his, uh, RNC acceptance speech. It's the first time I've ever watched Donald Trump's like talk. I don't know if you watched it. Presumably not. This is gonna sound a little bit weird, but I think I think he kind of found Jesus when that bullet nicked his ear For one hot second, Kurt. Maybe for a minute. He calmed himself down. Right. But then he started going off script again. I think so. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know either. Yeah, my, my, uh, I voted for Kanye, uh, last election and I don't know what I'm gonna do this time. I really don't. But I tell people sometimes, especially when I'm I'm just having these kind of conversations that, you know, yes, Trump's a egomaniac and a narcissist, but like, it gives me some level of comfort to think he's trying to do a good job and not just corrupt. Like it seems like the rest of our political class largely, yeah, I think he's only looking out for number one. Are we shifting into politics now? Sounds like it. Um, how do you feel about, not just how do you feel about Kamala, but how do you feel about, I would like to say, how do you feel about the process by which, um, Kamala entered the, the contest? Like, that's been bothering me, how they didn't even go to the, to the electors, to the convention and have some kind of a conversation, it was really just a lining up of, okay, here we are. Well, I mean, she already was on the ticket. True. They kind of had to, in some ways. Yeah. I think to me, that's kind of the determining factor. But then I think there's. It still was a process, because I just read a headline, maybe yesterday, that said she got enough of the electoral votes, or Right, but that came well after. After, after she was identified. Kind of. You know, she was kind of put into the place, you know, as the best available alternative. Uh huh. I mean, that's what a vice president is. I would imagine that people You're more enthusiastic about supporting Kamala than, uh, Biden, uh, would have been. I mean, I don't know how a person could be less enthusiastic about somebody than Biden showed himself to be in the last few months. What I've seen, I think at all levels of government in the last five years is the priority feels like it's on re election. Totally. More than anything else. Totally. Totally. And that is unfortunate. That's how we get these programs that are just about end result numbers instead of actual outcomes, because it's all about that, like, talking point and reelection. So yeah, that Biden is a politician, you know? I mean, this is a hard one right here, but it, It, it makes me feel like they hid how, uh, much Biden had declined because they maybe even had a plan to put Harris in place instead, but she wouldn't have made it through a primary process. Maybe. Um, especially not against an RFK or some of the other potential candidates, um, which feels kind of nefarious. Like that's not to like, you don't have that sensation necessarily. You're like, I had not the Biden debate. I don't know. That's it's possible. I had never really thought about it. It doesn't feel like Biden was really running in good faith. Like they protected him from all fronts, from anybody else running, um, you know, through the party apparatus and whatever else. And so, yeah, I mean, trying to script your candidate and hope they stay within these confines is what these. Speechwriters do, you know, they are hoping that Trump and Biden read the prompter, right? One of the things that, that concerns me in the political realm is, I guess, just what that is, you know, what is that thing that has Biden say just the right words and stuff like that? Like, um, is that something that you think about or you don't really spend too much time? Just wondering what the, okay, like, um, like who's putting the words on the teleprompter for what Biden should say, you know, and, and, and who's, Who's influencing Trump's policy, you know, who's he gonna owe if he gets elected, who's Kamala gonna owe if she gets elected? Just all of the, kind of, the corruptible ness of it. Like, do you have any ideas for what, like, you know, people talk about term limits, they talk about this and that, you know, the two parties, the duopoly, right, which is largely an oligarchy at this point. I mean, have you seen some of the censorship stuff that, you No. Google's doing on Trump? No. Oh, man. If you, if you Google, you know how it fills out the rest of the line for you? Uh huh. If you Google, uh, attempted assassination on T R U M, it will say Truman and it won't say Trump. Hmm. Uh. What's the benefit there? Well, then you don't get to, like, see how a Trumpist survived an assassination attempt. Well, but yeah, you do because you didn't just type in M P. Correct. But it's still, or if you Google, um, Trump rally. Uh, At least last weekend, it was the first like four results for Kamala Harris rally in Atlanta. So Google's actively. Okay. And you think that's coming from Google Kamala's team? No, SEO. Oh, that's an interesting thing. I wonder, I don't know. That's a good question. I, you know, I would assume that I, how could it possibly be that fast, that good, but maybe it is. Yeah, they plant, plant those word things SEO. That's an interesting, I hadn't really considered that. I, I kind of thought it was direct nefarious. Um, but you might be right. It might be just be better at, they're certainly dominating the tick tocks right now. Yeah. So Harris is getting her message out in the, the Gen X or Gen Zers are going to probably turn out. pretty big and potentially tip it for Harris at this point. When she raised her first week, like 300 million, you know, we were all pretty relieved. Someone who can vote, who can beat Trump. Well, I think Trump probably was relieved too, because otherwise he would have never survived it through to the election, the way things were shaping up with the Secret Service protection he had. Oh, right. How, what do you feel about that? Like, do you think that was an inside job? Mmm, I don't, I, see, I'm not quite as, um, Or just super incompetent. Or just incompetent. I'm a tinfoil hat guy, man. I'm all the way over there. Yeah. It seemed like a lot of incompetence to have that building not covered. At least a lot of incompetence. Fair. Anything else on politics you want to talk about? Um, we don't have to go national, we can talk local politics, uh, jobs, we can talk anything. Land, land use code. Okay. I was, I was super involved in our, in our density conversation in Fort Collins and, and just how it relates to housing. So you're happy about the fact that Colorado kind of superseded on the U plus 2 or? I am on that one, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of mixed. Yeah. On it. Like I don't, I feel like you should have as much local control as is practical. Uh huh. And I thought that particular ordinance was. Was crappy. Outdated. Right. Exactly. And well, and just property rights limited, like for what cause. Yeah. Um, and so I was, Glad it went away, I think it was the right decision, but I didn't, I don't really feel like the state of Colorado should have the power to tell cities what to do, and local communities, HOAs, right? We don't even have HOAs anymore. Well, we still do. But, a lot of their powers have been, significantly. Yeah. You know, and that's just the state taking those powers, basically. Yeah. Yeah. To, to, I, I'm, I think I'm skeptical on to what degree are we really gonna see changes at the HOA level. I wonder. You might see some ADUs in the backyard. Right. Right. You might see some parking minimums come down. Yeah. Um, but I think the HOA is still gonna be strong, and what color I can paint my house And, you know, all of the first world problems that HOAs love to really delve into. Have you seen some of those YouTube, like, the dude Karens that come and they're the HOA president and stuff like that? Yes, they're, right. We, we moved out of an HOA neighborhood on purpose, and that was like our number one criteria. Number one was rocky school, second was no HOA, and, but they're on the other side of the fence from us. And it's, it's crazy. It's amusing watching it from over there. Yeah, yeah. Um, but you know, the local control, we had an opportunity in Fort Collins for Fort Collins voters to support CSU's property rights with Hughes Stadium. And what we saw happen, you know, on local on that local level was They didn't grant CSU their own property rights to build housing on their own land. The voters took that away from them. So, in a way, I feel like it's a balance between Sure, I don't agree with that either. That's fair. It wasn't. What was supposed to happen. I don't think right. Yeah. No, I think it would have been better. Yeah Right. I agree. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah Other political hot buttons that you'd like to touch. Yeah, I pretty much just stay in the housing world. Yeah, it's plenty for me Let's see, is there anything that Your board would be really upset if we talked about one way or the other. Just kidding. They're used to me. I, uh, I, uh, my blog last month, somebody, one of my former members called me and was discussing it and stuff and, uh, from a positive. Um, and, uh, I said, I think I said the line at one point, my, my goal was to offend and endear every reader, uh, through the course of this blog. He's like, I think you probably hit that pretty close, which isn't easy, which is not easy. Um, I, I, I have tea every morning and it has a little, tag that has inspiration on it. And one of the statements, one of the inspirations is, um, realize the other person is you. I love that. I think what it means is, you know, you might see things differently, but if you had lived their life, You'd be them. Yeah, you'd be the other person. Right. Yeah. Yeah, and so just trying to remember our shared humanity And we all come with just unique backgrounds, but yeah, yeah, are you? Let's let's talk about DEI kind of stuff like like the conservative argument is that you know, America's awesome because we're a meritocracy. Right. And then the, the, I guess the DEI kind of argument is, Hey, we're stronger if we can involve people from outside the traditional power classes in. Right. Well, and we're awesome if you were born white and if you were born where your parents had the opportunity to be homeowners. And Right, right. Accrue economic success. So such a different, again, such a different set of experiences. A hundred percent. And you know, like, um, Alma, who I mentioned, you know, she was telling me that for her like younger years, like they were living with other families for a lot of years and stuff, and I'm so proud of how much Mm-Hmm. progress she has made and, and she earned every. Bit of it. It's a meritocracy. You know, she came in with no experience and only a few skills. And like, if you water that down, it's kind of like that, those long term housing support programs that here's your rent money until it's gone. You know? So yeah. Talk to me about that tension, I guess, of both, like, how do you achieve a culture where you can both have people invited in to the economic conversation, from outside, um, and. maintain a, you know, a culture of excellence for, you know, not have doors fly off of airplanes all the time and stuff like that. Right. Well, I think it's about opportunity and we all want to have opportunity and we all want our kids to have the opportunity to meet their full potential. And there are systems at play and have been in American history that have prevented people from having their full opportunity. We haven't really been taught that very, very well. Um, so then I think what you get is this, like, vastly different understanding of, of the realities. And the white person is saying, wait, I bring, I bring this set of experience, which is, pouring over with privilege. Well, and a lot of, but a lot of white people don't have that experience. A lot of people, white people are raised in poverty and have much closer are in poverty than white people for sure. So yes, there are many poor white people. And I think what would be helpful is if we could all take a little bit of time to just understand the history that got us to this point a little bit more than we understand it. I mean, Florida is trying to not teach the history, you know, they're, they're trying to like, Hide it, it feels like. Let's not teach, you know, what happened during the civil rights and why. Um, that probably is, in my view, not the right approach. We should seek first to understand. Let's understand where the person is coming from. Yeah, what's the current circumstance here? Yeah, um, and then I think if we understand our own privilege, I had a debate with some white homeowner in my neighborhood about the land use code two years ago, and as soon as I called him out for, you know, For showing his privilege. He was so highly offended and it wasn't until I said no, I'm also privileged I we both have privilege. Yeah, and you're just not recognizing yours You're like you think you were born on third base, right? But but you know, you hit a triple and you had to like, yeah, yeah get there You thought you had a triple but you're born on space. Thank you. Yes and I just I think that has a lot to do with if we if we Seek first to understand and recognize the other person has A lot of the same values, we wouldn't be so quick to say, Oh, you know, people of color are asking, you know, for, for too much when they're just really asking for the same opportunity that they've been watching white people get for a long time. I think that's fair. Um, my, uh, how do I say that right? My fear is that it, it becomes counterproductive kind of in that same way that, that we talked. And so, like, could we cultivate an environment? Like, would it be good for America if every, Employer, like, well, I'll just talk to Alma because she's his brown skin person, right? Hispanic background. If I, if I had two candidates, her and an equally, um, qualified one, I would probably choose her because I would want to give that opportunity. And if there was like rules that said I had to as a very small employer, even as a medium size employer, I would probably be more reluctant to in that circumstance. And that's what I feel like sometimes those. Well intended programs actually work against like the, the meritocracy at Harvard, for example, like black kids are failing out of Harvard left and right, because they're actually not. Actually ready. Meanwhile, thousands of Asian kids that are like off the charts are not being allowed in because they don't want to have the whole place be full of Asians, right? So it's a very complicated. I'm not saying I have easy solutions, but It's a great question. It's a great example. I, I personally don't believe in, in over regulating. Yeah. Things to the point that people then, you just have to then have compliance around it. You've got to file a report about this. But there are a lot of steps between where we are today and that. Yeah, that's fair. And, you know, making sure your materials are translated and making sure you have a way to help someone who speaks Spanish and making sure that you post your job in places where more diverse candidates might see it. Maybe not requiring a four year degree for a job that doesn't really need a four year degree. Totally. You know, so I agree with all those things and I'd like to see the heart change lead the way. And I fear that if the heart is whipped with a stick, the hearts will turn the other way. And so that's what I, what I fear I see potentially happening in some parts of the economic engine. Yep. Anyway. Now, how then do you rectify the fact that, you know, I don't know, I should know the stat around black home ownership versus white home ownership. Should we somehow compensate for the economic losses for generation after generation? by not, by being systematically excluded from opportunities to, you know, be economically secure. I don't know. Yeah, I, I hear that argument, but it's also, like, the government wants to take most of people's, uh, Inheritance is the way anyway. So like there isn't that much, um, generational wealth, even in middle America, you know, not enough to change a lot in my impression. I'd rather see, um, specific, you know, homeownership programs. I'd rather see specific intentional investment with an eye toward, um, unintended consequences into the inner cities. Like that's where the opportunity needs to be, or they need to be willing culturally to. I'm gonna move to North Dakota and work in the oil field, you know, or all these other kind of opportunities, because there are a lot of still a lot of job opportunities. But, you know, a lot of people, and I'm gonna push back on the, it's not really a problem for white people. There's a lot of, you know, impoverished white people that are stuck in generational poverty, in their community in South Side Chicago, in West Virginia, you know, and some of these other inner cities. And their, their, their lot isn't much better, um, than those that are black skinned and in generational poverty. Well, and I didn't mean to say that it isn't there. Yeah. It is. That's fair. It is. Um. It's more of a state of mind, I guess, of what I would argue is poverty tends to be than it is. I don't, I disagree with that. So. Fair enough. Yeah. Um, the Loco experience? Uh, I'm supposed to tell you just a wild experience of my life? The craziest, the craziest story of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners? Um. Yeah. I had my identity stolen once. Oh, really? Was it crazy? Or just, you had to like, suffer through some credit reporting updating things and stuff? It was, uh, babies being sold on the black market and my identity as an adoption worker was stolen. Oh. Interesting. But I already talked about adoption work. Yeah, and it's, you know, you got a crazier story than that. Remember that time you took too many acids and then you went to the Grateful Dead show? No, my brother would be really good at answering this question and I should have, like, phoned him. Can I phone a friend? You can tell one of his stories if you want to. Um, I'm failing. Nothing silly like that. No near death experiences. Jumped out of an airplane. My life is nice and peaceful and boring. Um, You know what, have you got into a fight with Travis at a concert or anything like that? No! Um Well, you're definitely not going to make the, uh, top ten craziest experiences of 2024. Most boring life. Well, I don't think that's true. That is not true. Uh, you just need to know how to keep your nose clean, uh, stay out of too much trouble. No motorcycle crashes, bicycles, no automobile incidences, uh, uh, let's see, car wrecks, interactions with, uh, with, uh, homeless people that tried to kidnap you. Oh, well I, I did a immersion homelessness trip in DC when I was in college. Like where you lived as a homeless person? Yeah, it was not safe. Yeah. I would not do that again. Was this through a program? Yeah. Yeah, I was, I, my spring breaks, I chose to do alternative spring break and you go and you do a week of service somewhere. I got to go to Tijuana one year. And I got to go to D. C. Um, inner city D. C. where they kicked us out of a van and then we kind of circled back to two nights later, two days later. We stayed on the street for two nights. Damn. It was not safe. That sounds terribly irresponsible. My husband, my, I was engaged at that point and Travis was unhappy. Right. Did you have like pepper spray at least or something? I don't think so. Me and another sorority girl. Like, wore our, like, dirtiest clothes, and, like, walked around, we ate at a sushi joint, and now I, I feel, I feel like we gained insight, which was the purpose of that trip when I was, you know, what, 20 years old? But it wasn't respectful of people's experience, it wasn't safe, because homelessness for women is terribly unsafe. I'm sure, yeah. So, that is an experience I would not repeat. Fair. Yeah, sounds intense for me. You know, I think about that once in a while, like, um, I met a young lady, actually, I think I'm gonna hire her to, uh, a new job, and she's got a pair of Malamutes. Sounds Um, and, but, and she talked about, like, liking to hike, and, you know, this and that. And, we've got, Jill and I have, like, a little 25 pound Schnauzer dog. Nice. Right, and I was just, I had a quick just flash to myself of, you know, if you're a pretty single gal, And you want to be out by yourself, hiking in the woods and stuff like that, or even just running the trails around Fort Collins or something like, having a pair of Malamutes is probably one of the safest things that you can do, and it's sad that we live in a, even in our super safe community of Fort Collins, that, that's just, it is, right? And that it'll probably be that way forever, you know, as, as long as boys are boys and men are men and women are women. You know, vulnerable. Uh, ooh, we didn't get into the trans boxing thing. Do you want to talk about that? We can. We can talk about anything. I, you know. Oh, actually, yeah, I didn't really follow that. That was fresh. I know I don't really think it's clear yet. And there's so many different messages about, about that, too. Totally. Isn't that a weird thing about the world today? The, like, the propaganda one way or the other. And you can read all this and Yeah. I mean, so do you think, uh, That if Donald Trump is elected, that that's the end of democracy or you just think he's kind of an asshat, but I'm worried about it. I'm worried because I think, I think he's a puppet to Putin and potentially North Korea. I just think he's not smart enough and he's got people behind the scenes helping to guide us toward, I think really dangerous waters. See I would, I, I, I try to maintain a bit of a distance from it because I'm really not a Trump fan either. I'm I think that's propaganda. I think you've been, yeah, he's definitely not a puppet to Putin. I don't think there's any, you know, otherwise that big investigation that Hillary whacked open on Trump years ago would have found something. There really wasn't anything in the Mueller investigation. So, well, they did find that Russians helped get him elected. At least I've read that. Well, I mean, they, but not with his communication, like they just thought he would be better. Like, and so, like, I mean, uh, Mark Zuckerberg spent 400 million trying to make sure Biden got elected, you know? And so that, you know, so 10 bot farms in Russia trying to get Trump elected is not any more election interference, I think, than, than that. So, but anyway, from my perspective, um, He's too much of an egoist to be kind of influenced in that way. Well, maybe to put the country first, but also to, to defer to be a puppet for Putin or a puppet for like, he was mocking Kim Jong un from North Korea. So I think the evidence against that being real. So just fear not like we're not going to die or become. Either Nazi Germany or communist China if either Kamala or Trump gets elected. It's too big of a machine. Yeah for that for that. I think I worry about the world Maybe even 20 years from now, because I just think there, there are extreme views on display now that, that we didn't see 10 years ago. Um, a coworker just showed me, she went back home to visit her family and, um, she was surprised by kind of how their children are being indoctrinated. And this 10 year old, you know, has this poster on the wall that has, um, There's Trump and the rifle and the tank and the fireworks and the whole thing is make America great again And it's like who he's 10, you know, like I think that just kind of like extreme Kind of nationalism thing white nationalism makes well not white nationalism. I don't think Well, that isn't necessarily, but then that also is, like, feels like it's rising. I mean, how do you explain the, uh, increase of support by Hispanics and Blacks for Trump in the last, just propaganda? I can't. Yeah. I cannot explain that. I don't know. Yeah. The Catholic Church, I mean, like, there's a lot of support around Trump that I can't explain. Yeah. I get it. I don't understand this shit either. But thank you for the encouragement that it's going to be okay. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Unless Kamala wins. Then we're fucked. Just kidding. I love you Kelly Evans. I really do. for having me. I appreciate you being here. So fun. Alright. Godspeed.