EXPERIENCE 175 | Gaining Traction with a Fractional C-Suite - Getting Down to Business with Jill Simonds, Founder and CEO of Savvy Strategic Partners

By scanning Jill Simonds’ LinkedIn profile, one can see that she is achievement-oriented.  Coordinator to Manager at her first career stop, and then Manager to Director at the next, and then Director of Marketing & Operations to Chief Operating Officer & Integrator.  That last stop is where Jill earned her EOS stripes and Integrator Certification, and in 2023 she started her own firm, Savvy Strategic Partners.  

Savvy helps EOS-implementing(ed) firms build their leadership team, by serving in the role of fractional Integrator, and sourcing and managing fractional C-Suite roles in Finance, Marketing, and Sales.  For those small businesses trying to make the journey from small to middle-market, Savvy can often be a medium or longer term part of the team.  

Jill grew up in Colorado Springs, with parents she described as very Irish, very Catholic, and very high-functioning alcoholics.  She’s been strong and largely self-sufficient all her life, met her now-husband early in their stay at UNC, and brings a lot of power in a small package!  In addition to all the above, Jill has built and sold an e-commerce business, operated a part-time photography business, earned a Masters in Organizational Leadership from CSU Global - and is a proud wife and mother!  She’s smart and savvy, has a wonderful smile and an inspiring journey featuring hard work, constant learning, perseverance, and strong relationships.  

I know that listeners will enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Jill Simonds.  

The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/

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By scanning Jill Simon's LinkedIn profile. One can see that she is achievement oriented coordinator to manager at her first career stop, and then manager to director at the next, and then director of marketing and operations to Chief Operating Officer and integrator. That last stop is where Jill earned her EOS stripes and integrator certification. And in 2023, she started her own firm, Savvy Strategic Partners. Savvy helps EOS implementing or implemented firms build their leadership team by serving in the role of fractional integrator and sourcing and managing fractional C suite roles in finance, marketing, and sales. For those small businesses trying to make their journey from small to middle market, Savvy can often be a medium or longer term part of the team. Jill grew up in Colorado Springs with parents she described as very Irish, very Catholic, and very high functioning alcoholics. She's been strong and largely self sufficient all her life, met her now husband early in their stay at UNC, and brings a lot of power in a small package. In addition to all of the above Jill has built and sold an e commerce business, operated a part time photography business, earned a master's in organizational leadership from CSU global, and is a proud wife and mother, she's smart and savvy, has a wonderful smile and inspiring journey featuring hard work, constant learning, perseverance, and strong relationships. I know the listeners will enjoy as I did my conversation with Jill Simons. Welcome back to the Loco Experience podcast. I'm here today with Jill Simons and Jill is the founder and a partner, I guess, in the Savvy Strategic Partners enterprise here in Northern Colorado. And, uh, I guess just start by telling people what Savvy is. So savvy strategic partners. We are a fractional C suite. So outsource C suite positions, leaders for the finance operations and revenue functions of the business. I serve fractionally as COO for organizations. Um, as their second in command, essentially in charge and that bridge and gap between owner founder and the leadership team. Okay. I'm also certified as an integrator for companies that are on EOS. So but you're not an implementer with EOS. Correct. So you've got like a little training on that. Oh, so you can act as the integrator. Like they trust that you know what you're doing. Yeah. The implementers are facilitators, coaches. educating on that system, right? They're coaching on the business and the integrators are embedded within the leadership teams, so they are involved more in the day to day of the business than an implementer is. And then your, your partners, I guess, probably are the other C suite functions. We have fractional CROs for revenue, marketing. Yeah. So both sales and marketing revenue side, I guess. Yep, and then fractional CFOs serving the finance function. And then who, like, are we talking about, like, million dollar companies, ten million dollar companies? Mm hmm. Is it short term, long term? Are you like, is it temp staffing, uh, until they get the full time, or is it meant to be a long term engagement? Right. That's a great question. I'm kind of hitting on the difference between something interim or a consultant. where we differ, right? Our engagements are longer term. A business, it can really vary depending on the size, number of employees, revenue to which a fractional in that seat makes sense for them. So it really varies depending on that seat. You know, we've seen fractional CFOs, um, stand longterm in a position at a fractional basis for upwards of 50, 60 million executives. Exactly. So it really just depends on the needs and the growth trajectory of the business. Uh, typically our target, uh, is our, we typically fall within 3 million and up. So anywhere 3 million up to a hundred million, um, and revenue size, employee size can vary anywhere from 10 up from there, 250 employees. Um, and what I think I'm hearing is that the, the, the owner or the CEO generally is still there. They're just kind of, uh, building their fractional high skills team, um, instead of having a, you know, 150, 000 COO and a 200, 000 Chief Revenue Officer and a Chief Financial Officer for Yeah, that is One of the key qualifiers is definitely the state of the mindset and the goals for that less founder led sales, less founder dependency in the business. So that is a key qualifier in terms of psychological factors. And our target is that business owner knows that in order to sustain growth or scale, the business won't scale, uh, without the proper mechanism, system structure, and people delegated to Um, and do you strictly work EOS, or you could be those functions with others, but really there's so many companies running EOS right now. Yeah, really there are so many businesses out there that don't even realize they need or you know require an operating system so really it's more so that commitment level and awareness of Definitely operating leadership, an operational team, uh, some of them don't even know, you know, the benefits and don't even know what EOS is yet. Right, right. So that's not necessarily a prequalifier, but that EOS is at the foundation of what we employ and the methodology we bring. Right, so you're likely to recommend it. Exactly. If they've got nothing right now. Right. Hey, you need an operating system, here's one that I'm very familiar with. And maybe you want to meet one of these implementers. Exactly. Uh, potentially. Because that, I assume. lightens your load of instead of trying to drive from the backseat a little bit. I love working with implementers. Yeah. The earlier those, you know, that, that duo and collaboration can come to bet together the better, but it is, uh, even without saying, you know, for the ones that may be at a point of, uh, Um, not really knowing what EOS is, the tools just come with, you know, our expertise and that is really, it's proven and known well. So yeah. No, it's an interesting, um, it's almost a, a business cultural phenomenon, EOS, um, what do you think the, like around here? At least in the, in the local community in that mm-Hmm, three to a hundred million dollar demographic of our members. I think it's Mm-Hmm. 40, 50%. Mm-Hmm. are at least, um, dabbling in eos Right. Or more. Right. Um, what do you think it is in the, is that more, is that above the norm? Um, around here or is that kind of, is it like 30 percent of companies around the country are running it now? Yeah. I'm not sure the actual percentage of companies. Of bigger companies. Right. Right. And larger in size. Cause it isn't necessarily meant, you know, there is kind of a, um, limitation to its viability after a certain point, but comparing, just being On the high end and the low end? Yeah. Yep. Okay. Exactly. If you're too small, you know, and not with the proper mechanisms of a team to actually employ a lot of the tools and the structure. Like me and Alma. Right. Like it's hard to be. You can. And we are the visionary and the integrator. Mm. For sure. Right. And we're figuring it out and like there just isn't enough complexity and there's so much easy communication already It doesn't necessarily make sense to go through all the tools. Exactly Yeah, and knowing them though as a foundation as you build into those larger phases just knowing it and starting to yeah Yeah, implement it. No, we should we're yeah, we're working on it A little at a time. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I think it's, uh, not as prominent, it seems, here in northern Colorado. I know, I mean, this being kind of a smaller population community, uh, for the size, or for the amount of businesses that we do have locally owned, I'd say it has a good widespread, um, population. But comparing it to other markets, where it infiltrated in the, you know, North. Oh, is that where it started? Was the Northeast kind of? Yeah, and, and Midwest areas. Okay. It's definitely more prominent and making its way. Okay. Are there competing systems? Scaling up is one, and none to the caliber, I think, that EOS has been able to. And I think even, like, TrueSpace would be arguably a little bit in that same kind of thing. Are you familiar with those guys in Denver? Mm mm. It's more of a theory driven thing. Like, uh, being able to predict your revenues accurately is one of the key components. How are you going to build a machine that allows you to predictably predict your revenues? Forecast your revenues. Right, right. Uh, and build a team to do it. Mm-Hmm. And that's simplifying it way too much. But they have a program that Okay. I'm a little bit familiar with. I, I've got him on the podcast schedule actually. Oh, I'll be interested to hear that. Um, yeah, Charles Fred is the founder and Okay. And he's got a, a cool, um, research background to it. Mm-Hmm. like, and he's kind of anti. Private equity. Okay. He's kind of got a little bit of a, Hey, it looks like private equity kind of wrecks a lot more companies than it turns into, you know, um, anyway, I digress. Okay. I'm interested. So those are some of the, those are some of the like options, right? Otherwise it's just kind of craft the systems that you need to overcome the challenges and obstacles as you come across them, right? Which typically is what in itself. It's still a system. Sure. It's a cobbled together system. Yeah. And I think having explored a little bit with scaling up 40 X is another one, a simplified methodology of having a wildly important goal that the entire company is centered around and kind of a North star and kind of reverse engineering predictable scorecard. Those are kind of two components that, um, that actually led me to this foundation of understanding. Uh, more comprehensive operating system, which then is where I discovered EOS and reading traction, reading. Oh, is that right? Yeah. So you were already intrigued by this. Yes. Concept. Yeah. I was operating full time as a COO within an organization, entrepreneurial founders. More so in the owner's box. I mean, the business was kind of more lifestyle, not, um, not consistently profitable, um, had hit kind of revenue ceiling for several years in a row. And so just that drive and understand I had finished my master's degree in organizational leadership. Okay. And there, you know, this whole concept of like, go back to school and you'll get all the tools you need to effectively grow and run a business. Right. Right. Right. And you're like, there's something holding me back here. Mm hmm. Yeah. Like just simplified, excuse me, methodology. And here I was kind of taking bits and pieces, which you can do. And I think what ultimately lands a lot of people in the realm of EOS is because here's an entire system that covers most of the core functioning components you're going to need. And you're not needing to then Piece it in to, you know, with, into other systems. And so adopting that fully was, I just needed something simplified, replicable that I could run with and bring to that company. And so that's how I discovered it. And did you have to like talk to founders, the owners into like trying this thing and you were the integrator, I assume? Mm hmm. Yeah, naturally just, I was serving as the integrator as in that COO capacity. And it felt a lot like. telling someone they need an Advil and they don't have a headache. Right. So, um, yeah, it, it took some time and coming around, but the results of it were just so impactful and so, and undeniable. So we might come back to that chapter as we, uh, travel back in through time. Um, what I guess I would like to be, uh, yeah, curious about is what does it operate? Like there, there's so many different operations of business. What does the chief operations officer do? What does the integrator do? Are they the same thing? Um, and, and, you know, certainly feel free to give examples, you know, there's manufacturing companies, there's services companies, they all have different types of operations, but what's the commonality there? And I'm sorry to ask you a question when you get this, we'll cut some of this grass and throw it out with an octopus. cut some of my coughing out. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, great question. So it, it really does depend on the business too, right? What, what the business is needing in that. Operational executionary point and person and, and flow into the business of what it's needing. Okay. So, um, I think the best way to kind of summarize it is this, the COO is exact counterpart to that founder, and that's, that's typically the best way to frame it, is where in the business is the, the founder, the the visionary. Oftentimes operating as a CEO. Where are they gapping? Right. Where are the gaps? Where um, is the business continually falling short? Uh, and where are the, the strengths, right? Where are the gaps and, and strengths and weaknesses? Where they can serve as a duo together and kind of counter balance that. Yeah, yeah. So, really in terms of exactly what that looks like it really can vary. I mean can we, Maybe, can we talk about it in terms of your first, I assume that was your first COO role with this folks? What, what, what were they selling? What were they doing? Yeah. Direct to consumer product. So I, I come more so from the e commerce, direct to consumer background, more in, um, consumer as opposed to weight loss pills or, uh, no, I mean, we, Wellness and the fact of like healing yourself with food, um, but a lot of it really was in kind of the weight loss realm. Okay, sorry. It's funny that you say that, but it wasn't pills, um, or anything, you know, crazy. Um, but, yeah, that the, the, the balance there was definitely, um, The balance of having the execution factor follow through, being able to take plans and craft a vision that Um, that developed, you know, some sort of tangible North Star for the team to actually operate with. Yeah. Um, because they had seen so much success, uh, in, in that realm just through really smart tactical marketing. Okay. Um, so marketing was definitely a strength. But what they had been doing wasn't really working. It's good anymore, right? It started to, I mean, it, it had been flat in terms of revenue for several years and kind of operating more or less like a lifestyle business. And, um, without, without really, yeah, I don't want to break any privacy or whatever, but, um, so did you like, Connect with with the marketing teams and and like you sold them on signing up for this EOS thing Did you use an implementer to or were you self installed self implemented first? So really that was the whole driver for me to become certified learn the tools really well knowing that You know, this, this was either going to be effective and be what I could bring in increasing value to this business. Yeah, or I was like, I can't afford a high paid COO and I want to either be a high paid COO or Right, not work for these guys. Exactly. So you went and got your EOS done. Certification as an integrator, right? As an integrator. Right. And then we, then you're like, Hey, bring a toolkit. Right. And then later did bring in an implementer to, I mean, there's, there's such a powerful dynamic between the two. Yeah. And having somebody who's, because if you, if you know the world of EOS. And the methodology around having one seat and each individual serving solely that seat. An integrator who's also implementing is two seats, you know, and it does take a skill set to balance between the two. And so it does. Well, it's like going to the marriage counselor without the marriage counselor there. A little bit. Yeah. It's pretty bad. That's not going to go well. Yeah. So, I mean, there's, there are so many companies that have been successful. In the self implementation, but it's a slower rate of speed. Um, you're hitting a lot of the, the barriers that come with truly that integrator also coaching on the business, you know, where I have a role in the business. And so my bias and my understanding, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Yeah. It becomes like the Jill show and that's. Not going to get us anywhere. And you've got these couple of founders, sounds like, that also have a dynamic between themselves about what we should actually do. And all of a sudden, 5'1 Jill is telling the whole crew what to do. Not just the owners, but all the team and whatever else. Yeah. It becomes a, it's definitely a challenging dynamic. Not that you're not a powerhouse at 5 Oh, thanks. Maybe you're 5 Five two, actually. Two, sorry. Sorry to understate you. Um, okay, well, thank you for that. I think that, that helps explain. And, and that includes, like, I guess just for the audience more than for our conversation, like, making sure the financial function is working well, making sure the supply chain is functioning well. You know, it might not be key accounts because those key relationships there. It might not be the ideas around marketing because. Mm hmm. Those founders probably have a lot of ideas. Right. It's, EOS is a system to manage human energy. So that's what's fundamentally. Missing, I think, in other operating systems or, you know, when you kind of develop your own is that the tools within it help us manage, regardless of the business we're in, regardless of what we're doing, we're working humans. And so where our energy goes and how we measure our impact and how we prioritize what's most important, how we take ideas. To fruition how we totally, we execute on a vision. Like you can have this kind of pie in the sky, but actually making it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Is human capital. That's human energy. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what it borrows. Yeah. I only got so much. Right, right. Like that's like, yeah. In the case of loco think tank, um. You've been Alma a couple times, probably. Yes. She, like I said, she's my integrator, she's my operations manager, is her technical title, right? Right. Director of operations seems too fancy, but she's part of the leadership team. Mm hmm. Um, and she's super excited about the notion of scaling LocoThinkTank geographically. And having a part in building the, the systems, especially through monday. com and different things like that, that we can use to add value to those other regions. And it's going to take this, and it's going to take that, and it's going to take this, and we can create a lot of those things together. I would be a, mess. If I tried to, like, it would just take so much effort to want to be structured about the way that I deliver that. Exactly. I'd almost rather just do what I'm doing now. Right. But I do want there to be local think tanks and other places. And she's excited by the opportunity to be a part of that. Yeah. Especially. Mm hmm. Right? And so her human capital is flowing in, you know, probably more than mine some days. Mm hmm. You know, as far as effort. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And it's just difference of how people are wired. Totally. Well, and if you can get people excited about the thing, right? Mm hmm. But if you don't know what the thing is. Right. What are we doing? Right. So we've kind of bounced around a little bit. Can we, uh, go back to Savvy a little bit? Do you want to shout out your partners that deliver these CFO services and, uh, CRO services? Is there more than one on the revenue side? I presume maybe. Yeah. So a couple in each of those functions. Yeah. A couple of CMOs, CROs over, yeah. Sales and revenue and then CFOs as well. Um, and then. My husband being a key member, too, of our team. Okay. Yeah. Um, he's managed finances, uh, for, for our business and, Wanting to do more of that. So us being able to, who's your husband? Do you want to talk about Greg, Greg Simons? I'm sure you're going to listen to this one. I know he's going to have to, yeah, I'm going to make him. Yeah. A shout out to him because he's left a career in leadership and in the private sector or sorry, the public sector. Um, so totally different world. Oh, is that right? He like bounced. Yeah. Yeah, he's calling it his retirement. Oh, I see, or at least a sabbatical. No, just kidding. Hopefully, yeah, retirement at 40 from that career. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, he, 10 years ago, pursued a career, or sorry, pursued a master's degree in finance and accounting as well. So, um, he's managed, I have, I have functioning accounting and finance that I think, you know, with early stages of a startup in a business, a lot of founding, uh, uh, Owners don't have, and so to have that strength. Functioning is a, yeah, uh, it was a, it was a notable time when I could fire Jill, my wife Jill. Oh, funny. Uh, as the bookkeeper for Loca Think Tank and hire, uh, Actual knows what they're doing. Kind of bookkeeper, but she did good. I mean, but, but it's not finance, you know? Right. It's like, how can we strategically forecast and looking out? And, um, so yeah, that's, that's definitely one call out in the growth and direction we've taken this year is being able to work together. On a client as well and bring him into financial, um, serving finance for clients that they have as well. So, but all of them, I mean, I've met through varying communities along the way and along the journey. What, what first started this, this evolution of having this bench of strength and expertise that we could replicate was the fact that stepping in with clients that I serve as a COO, I was, Almost always recruiting and hiring for at least one leader on the team. And you didn't always need a full timer or couldn't afford it. Most of the time, what I was, yeah, what we were starting to find is actually. Fractional is, is typically where most of them are in their phase and journey. Right. It makes the most sense. Especially in that like three to 10 million. Exactly. I suppose. Right. So rather than, all right, need to go search, go out, recruit, hire this fractional CFO again, I'm moving from a bookkeeper Uhhuh Right. To, we need to elevate our caliber c Ffo. So you mean I'm gonna go from a Mm-Hmm.$60,000 salary to a hundred and Exactly.$60,000 salary. Exactly. Do I have to do that? Right. Right. What's all needed? You know, what, what is the business truly needing? And, um, rather than repeat, you know, rinse and repeat of the hiring process. There's several that I've worked with over time that. I wanted to. So your strategic partners are kind of a little bit part of your special sauce. Like we'll bring in the right person for your situation. I've got kind of a right, a fleet of people that I know that can do fractional work or I'll find them. Right, exactly. So you're creating fractional opportunities more so than you're building a fractional team to serve. Right. Exactly. And then you're hiring for it. Right. Right. Because that's, I imagine your experience as the integrator role was like, okay, we gotta hire this function or do this function. Yep. And rather those, rather than those being, you know, sole contributed, hired on, um, how can we serve together? Um, and like I mentioned, in terms of the system and the methodology that we're using with EOS. It's foundational to that, the accountabilities of each of those roles is super clear. The way we work together is super clear. If they're EOS literate. Exactly. Uh, here's what we're going to talk about in the 90 Day Rocks conversation. Exactly. And who owns it? All three. Our new revenue officer. Right. So yeah, that, that methodology then is I'm going to build this and then bring the opportunity for eventually getting to the point where, you know, we have our portfolio and book and we can, and the proven process and model that we're following to increase the value of these organizations, realize freedom for these visionary owners and do that together. Repetitively. And, is the business model, cause, are you the main, are you the owner? Yeah, I'm the primary only owner at the moment. Yeah, so, these partners are really more skills partners. Right. And your business model, I presume, is you get 30 percent or 50 percent or some number, you don't have to talk about it right here, but you get some share on the arbitrage of this person's income. The revenue share, exactly. If that person's a half time CFO and they Whatever get paid 100, 000 a year, which is a lot, but it's, it's less than half or barely over half of a full time CFO with benefits and all that. Um, and then they're contractors, right? They wear the hat typically. Like on their LinkedIn, they're the chief revenue officer of this business or whatever. Well, and typically it kind of behind the scenes. Yeah. Fractionally, you know, I've, I've seen, I don't really know what that looks like, you know, and some companies play it a little closer to the vest anyway. Yeah. Kind of keep your clients to your chest a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some, some fractionals I've seen include all the clients on there. Right. They've got five different fractionals right on there. Yeah, yeah. And we just kind of keep it a little more behind the scenes. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's a really interesting, have you copied anybody else's business model or is this just kind of your own creation? Because I haven't really seen the, the C suite, right? Like I've seen fractional CFOs, I've seen fractional, operations people over time, different things like that. But I've never really seen like a services partner in that way. There's, there's a couple, um, on the scene. I mean, we're kind of a backwater here in Northern Colorado, right? Usually a little bit. On a local level. Definitely. I know there's one in Denver, a Denver based, um, that's COO and CFOs. Okay. So, you know, I've seen models where it's kind of coupling up your marketing with your tech or your, you know, operations with your finance or, you know, Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't know as if, you know, I've re invented anything that's not catching on. Well, but you weren't copying anybody else. You just saw the need and moved to fill it. Right. Right. It was more so how I think that's relevant. I mean, that's, that's the entrepreneurial kind of itch. It is. How can I Well, and really the passion being value to these businesses I serve. If I've, you know, with years of experience and recruiting and hiring and building teams, building leadership teams, building marketing team, every function I've sat in the leadership seat of each of those functions to then build the internal strength within them to know I can hire an accountant. I know how to find a controller. I know how to hire a CFO. I know how, so increasing the value in businesses for what I can bring to the table in terms of that factor of. expertise, but also in reverse, bringing the opportunity to experts in their field that May not be, may not love or be the strongest at business development. Right. So, and I think a lot of them are, which is why they have been so successful and why that I think there's so much value in bringing us all together is the opportunities that we can serve by. Yeah. One of our CMOs, Hey, I've got an opportunity with this client CFO. Hey, are you available to make this work? Well, the network effect is, yeah, we just increase our impact together. Um, what, uh, what about HR? Yeah. Feels like something that either you do pretty good already or you should add to your service offer. Yeah. Thanks, Kurt. Yeah. Just saying. I don't know. I, I, I have beat you to that idea though. Oh, no. Well. I know. It seems like the natural evolution almost. Yeah. Exactly. Um. Cause you're fucking around doing a bunch of job postings and stuff like that right now as the COO. That's fine, but. Yeah. Not ideal. You're probably not cutting edge. You know, even if you're. And it takes a lot of time. It is. I, yeah, I think HR people, HR and that skill set and strength are there. It's God's work. So I, yeah, I can't handle it, um, at least not long term. So that's definitely a strength we're building within as well and, um, exploring partnerships with fractional, uh, HR, other fractional agencies, things like that. Yeah. There are a lot of, there are a lot of agencies out there where, um, when you can shrink these down a little bit for your little head. So they don't, yeah, there you go. Um, but at a, at a larger caliber too, I think that there's, um, you know, businesses in that, You'd rather be friends with those guys in some respects. Or you'll add it to your team. Yeah. Add them to my team. Right. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. Add them to our team because, um, I think that's where, that's oftentimes kind of the last piece. Well, it's the hardest part of EOS it seems like is building the right team. Like one of the things that I think scares people off of EOS is that when people sign up for it, oftentimes they're half or more of their leadership team turns over. And probably for good reason, but then they're hustling, they're hiring, they're trying to figure it out. They hire and they don't quite get the right integrator or whatever. And it is, I, I often, uh, tell clients new to it or those that are exploring it, um, the commitment to EOS is that it's not. It's not a silver bullet, right? It's not going to come in and fix everything. Quite honestly, it's, it's first reveal more flaws. I call it a, yeah, I call it the exposure effect. It's so, are you ready for that? Because, uh, I mean, the answer should be yes, because if what, what scares you and pushes you away from it is probably the exact reason, you know, you need totally system and exposure to where the gaps are, when the, where the inefficiencies are, where people are lacking, where you've outgrown. It's like where I need a personal trainer, basically, yeah, do the fitness test thing. Yeah. Right. And then the harder part is obviously the hard work that comes after that. Totally. So, yeah, we can expose ourselves to everything, all the answers, and why we're doing things a certain way, or why we're cutting it short, or what we're lacking, and Then you have to get to work. Yeah. Yeah, so and that that part is the hardest you have to do the hard work Sometimes it's trust issues. Sometimes it's you know Psychological safety you may have a really great team, but then you're exposing all of the all of these these fundamental communication and needs you have within just Totally. I mean, there didn't used to be accountability here. And now all of a sudden there's a bunch of accountability. It's like, Oh, now we see where things are falling apart or where someone's not up to speed or where things aren't clear. So then you got to do the hard work to fix it. Um, Are you in any kind of a, like, peer advisory thing? Yeah. Do you have something already? Well, for, that I've jumped in on or Yeah, like what Loco does? Yeah, um, somewhat, but I, kind of a global You don't talk about it? Oh, okay. So it's other people that do what you do or something? Well, no. Right. Um, and so really my, my kind of peer group is other visionaries, business owners. Yeah. Uh, and definitely the EOS community, implementers, um. But not in a structured fashion. Um, the Visionary Forum is one, and that's kind of at a global, you know, um, national basis for business owner founders. So do you, like, you've served as integrator for a lot of your career, but you have, you've got these sprouting ideas about what really needs to be created to solve. Approaching middle market problems. Yes. Um, like, are you a visionary too? Yes. Like, where do you score out in the rocket field test? Yeah. Have you done that one, I'm sure? I have. I have. Yeah, I think that's my unique edge, is, I have the skill set and strength as an integrator and to operate because I can see vision, I can see a vision and structure and systematize us to get there. I can see, you know, I can boil things down and think conceptually, but I can also take plans through to fruition and kind of see the path to getting there. So I have that as a skill set, but I'm definitely a visionary. That's your, you're, you're inherently a visionary. Right. Did you go to get your master's in organizational development thinking that you might be an entrepreneur someday? Well, I've I've already been an entrepreneur. You were before that even right? Yeah Yeah, I've successfully run a portrait and wedding photography business throughout my career. I've Also served as a marketing consultant. So I had my own marketing consultancy on the side of my phone I always just had that's like that security blanket of Of Sitting in a full time role and kind of growing in my skill set through that. I think just because I, you know, maybe bite off more than I can chew and didn't quite know where I wanted to channel that energy. Until you want to put all your energy somewhere, like, it's silly to just Jump and start a lemonade stand. Right. Yeah. And I, I think a lot of my entrepreneurial journey was a few of those things. Right. Dabbling in it, kind of getting a feel of, um, whether I'm service based or product product based. Cause I, I created and developed a product e commerce company. Then I later sold a year later, right in the midst of the pandemic. Cause it's like, what else can I get my hands on in the midst of all of that? Well, let's circle around to the, the. the journey a little bit, um, soon, actually we'll jump in the time machine. But, um, I find that really interesting and you don't find it uncomfortable to serve in that integrated role. Even though you're a visionary by wiring. That's kind of the conundrum that I've started. Are you going to have to hire for that too? I've, I've duplicated myself within the team with another badass integrator, female integrator on the team. Um, but I do enjoy it, I think, because. Um, results and impact is so key. When I can actually see the tangible results, that's truly where my passion and purpose is. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, I mean, that is what we do, right? We serve businesses and making an impact in their business and helping them come out of the weeds of their business. So seeing that impact is why it's, um, just natural for me to kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah. Like you'd have this vision and pursue this vision of many more companies working well. Yeah. Exactly. Do you know anything about farming? Have you ever had an exposure to any kind of farming? Not really. So, it's not my thing. My dad was a farmer. He started a farm evenings and weekends when I was five. But one of the cool things about farming is that whether you're plowing a field or harvesting it. Right. Like taking all the grains off. You can clearly see exactly how much progress you've made on that project. And a lot of businesses, and your business is a little less clear sometimes, but when you set up the right systems, you can be like, okay, you were here, now we're here. Right. Yeah. I like that analogy a lot. It's a good picture. Yeah. Yeah. Um, cool. Yeah. What's, uh, I guess what, have you created your own kind of three, five year vision board, uh, I imagine? I have. Are you, I assume you run a U. S.? Yep. Of course. Yeah. Got our VTO put together and our play target. Do you want a leadership team kind of helping to manage all these fractional people? Is that the ideal scenario? Hiring, etc.? Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I think that's where I see natural, um, progression with. My husband and his unique ability being kind of that operator. Um, Yeah, just very structured, detailed, can really standardize things much more in detail than I can. This is how we do it here. Yeah. So is he the integrator? He is. Vision? Yeah. Yeah. Right now that, that is. Well, sometimes good finances is a, Significant part of integration. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things within the integration of building the health and the financial growth and our revenue and forecasting and managing finances, expenses, and that kind of, you know, just kind of get brushed aside. Um, so having that duo of somebody that's actually then implementing what we need to, to realize those financial goals. So that's, yeah, that's, kind of how we've structured things right now. That's the plan for now. Um, but yeah, as far as future vision, um, I, I want to focus more on growing this, right. Being able to impact more businesses. Um, and whether that means I'm serving as an integrator with teams or starting to limit that so that I have a leadership team. Um, that we can, you know, continually develop upon our proven process and make more of that impact. It's, it's exponential beyond myself. And so there's only so many clients I can serve and so many clients one fractional can serve. Right. So. Well, I imagine developing like a superb reputation within the EOS community, right? We've got half dozen, almost, integrators in Northern Colorado currently who are all Like, pretty phenomenal people. Um, Yes. And, like, if they trust you to be a part of their transformation of their clients and you trust them to be a, you know, it's a, everything grows kind of a scenario. Yeah. Presumably. Yep. That's right. Yeah, the more, the better we are together, stronger together. Um, do you want to jump back in the time machine? Is there anything else you really want to share? Maybe do you have some, I guess, uh, let's, let's do some operations manager best practices. Um, we talked about Alma already a little bit, but there's other listeners out here that have Operations managers or office managers or different. They call them different titles sometimes. Right. What, what, what does it take to really be good at that kind of a role? Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said, it. It can depend and vary on that owner, that founder, and kind of being a ying and yang. So you're gap filling is what you talked about before, kind of almost like. To a, yeah, to a, to a degree for sure. Um, because. I guess. Yeah. Flexibility is huge. At least part of it. Yeah, because that, it kind of adapts and ebbs and flows. Um, you're there because of the fact that. You know, you serve in an integral part of and bridge between that founder visionary and the team that's executing on a vision, um, or the, you know, the frontline, you won't say that as a defining characteristic, like that's why you are there. Yeah. You're there to serve that purpose. And, uh, To really bridge that and to serve that need that the founder has, you know, cause otherwise it's the business has gotten to a point. up into a certain point without it. Right. Uh, but we can't, we all know we can't get from here to there doing the same, you know, what got us here is not going to get us to the next point. So, um, yeah, I'd say a lot of flexibility. Um, one, one way I like to phrase it a lot is comes with batteries. Or batteries included. Okay. Oh, like self powered. Yeah, you gotta be Have enough of that drive as well an initiator a facilitator Right, you know be able to don't wait for Instruction. Yeah, you gotta force the car Right. And yeah, ask the right questions, be the one to bring, you know, the, the possibility of what those ideas entail or what could come of that vision or have, have that, that visibility to, um, be able to articulate a vision well, to be able to see what the end result is, but also clearly depict, motivate, and encourage a team. Around it. Even if the team just is you and the visionary, because oftentimes that's it too, is like, okay, how are we going to get this done now divided between the two of us and resources, you're good at marketing and sales. I'm good at finance or whatever it might be. We're going to have to do this until then we're at this stage where it makes sense to delegate those functions of the business and then they own it. So it really can. multiply and that effect. Um, but you have to come with the batteries. You have to come with the flexibility. Um, you're not an executive assistant and waiting for orders. You know, if you're somebody that really needs to be handed a guidebook and handed a method to be able to just check the boxes. Yeah, it's not going to work. The visionary is not going to be able to create that for you. Right. So, um, that ability to say, okay, yeah, I see where we're going. You know, I'm going to I'm going to co pilot this. I'm going to tell us where to turn, um, what needs to happen at each step, develop the processes for us to scale this and do it. What the six steps that, uh, make up the one step that you described are. Exactly. Just do this thing is actually a one page document of how we do that thing. So yeah, being able to, uh, translate that into something that a team can, because then, you know, the. What you're building in a team, in a workforce. Yeah, yeah. To To scale and grow that has to be scalable, has to be something then that other people can translate and to take with, take with them and run with it. I dig it. Um, have we talked about HALOS at all? No. The HALOS Relational Intelligence Platform? Ooh, no. Oh, see, so I'm going to give you a quick primer because, Um, you're gonna like it actually, it's, so Loco uses it as, I've been the mixologist since Loco started 10 years ago, like I kind of intentionally mix different kinds of people together and I know who's gonna jive with who a little bit and sometimes not and whatever. Okay, yeah. Um, and so we've, we've come upon this, uh, Brazilian platform called Halos Relational Intelligence. And the theory is it's kind of the next step, you know, logical intelligence, emotional intelligence, but what do you do about it? Okay, relational intelligence. Now you understand the other person and you know how to relate differently. Um, and it's a little bit like DISC. Um, There's five colors. Um, I am a white green. Okay. So the, and, and each color, each person has two essential characteristics that are, um, almost like a yin and a yang contending against each other to give you like a stereo view of the world instead of just a singular. Mm. So my white type is the thinker. Okay. Lots of ideas, kind of the traditional visionary. Mm hmm. Um, very messy inbox. Um, eccentric and different than a lot of people. Um, And, uh, yeah, philosopher types, I guess you would say, in many cases. Yeah, I could see that. The blue type is, I'm going to skip the green for a moment, the blue type is the organizer planner. Uh huh. Um, almost that in significance. The green type is the heart. Uh, that's the social relational. Kind of people first, always. Um, and so that's my secondary type. So my, my, my thinking and my social go together. The orange is the, uh, one of your primary colors for sure. The uh, the drive, the determination is called the Achiever Entrepreneur, uh, archetype. And then the fifth one is the brown, which is kind of like a bit of a mix of all, understands them all and they understand the complexity. Uh, that's almost secondary type. They just, what you were describing there, they call it the integrator. Um, and the founder's theory is that almost nobody goes from like a million to ten million. Without an integrator on the team. And it's so funny that, that he had never heard of EOS. Uh, Marco Antonio had never heard of EOS, had never heard of the term integrator as it pertains to the Yeah. EOS language. Right. But that is the person that he described. How funny. Was the person that could understand the complexity of the whole thing. Yep. And. And translate it. And translate it. Move it. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And with. The proper, they, a lot of times want more information, so they need the proper motivation of a system like EOS to kind of have that accountability to move to the next step. Exactly. Oh, interesting. Which is probably why I should implement EOS because it would help Alma help us. Exactly. Get it going. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because that then is a tool that She already thinks that way. Right. You know, I'm not focusing on her powers. are there, it's like, oh, now I have Just gotta do this and this and this. Yeah, you just gotta follow this. I don't have to reinvent something. Totally. That's cool. Yeah. So, um, uh, remind me and I'll, I'll give you a free assessment. Oh, cool. I would love that. Yeah. I love all of those. I'm pretty sure. I've done like every assessment out there. I'm thinking you're, you're probably green and orange, um, is my suspicion. It might not be your two mains, but at least you have those two in you. You're pretty friendly. You like people a lot. The social aspect. Yeah. The social relational person, um, which is part of your superpower, I suspect, like how you. Um, and I think that's a great way to get people to do what you want is because you're so damn sweet and kind and helpful and servant hearted and they just want to please you. Yeah. That is, uh, I did the strengths finder. Well, strength finder and then a unique ability with Dan Sullivan. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I haven't done that one, but I've heard of it. Yeah. Your unique ability. So I said mine is literally is people. That one word was like people, the EQ, the ability to, you know, Build rapport, to gain their trust, to trust them, um, is, I, I lead socially, I'm socially dominant as a leader. In uh, in Halos. These types have a positive polarity and a negative polarity. So like I kind of mentioned on the white type. Yeah, it's like Yes, they have all these ideas, but they also are shit at executing them a lot of times and whatever The green type oftentimes has a ton of empathy. They're very persuasive They're fun to be around like teams just kind of work better when there's a green on the team and they like each other better yeah, and When they're working in their negative polarity, they can be gossips. They can create drama just because there isn't anything dramatic to go around or something. Any of those symptoms in your life? Oh yeah. Yeah. Ask Greg about that. The drama. Yeah, I love that though. That that makes a lot of sense. You might like it. Oh, I love it I love all that kind of stuff anything to help us learn and understand ourselves better totally is The that those are the most powerful tools we can have. Yeah. Yeah 100 percent before like years ago I said that one of the biggest benefits from being a local member was yeah that You can learn about yourself better through other people's lenses than you can by self reflection a lot of times. Totally. If they're willing to shoot you straight. I know, and we need more people in our lives like that. Totally. That'll do that for us. Yeah, yeah. Call us out. I mean, even your therapist is getting paid by you, so he might not, or she might not, like, shoot you straight. They're gonna hold back. Yeah. But these other folks, they got nothing. Nothing to lose. Yeah. Um. Do you want to, let's take a short break and we'll, um, jump in the time machine for a quick tour and come right back. All right. Um, we're gonna, like, uh, jump in the time machine. Yeah. Uh, hot tub time machine, hot tub. Well, it'd be weird. My wife would be like, who's this great? No hot tubs. Jill, you and my wife, Jill. Um, so you're, so you're my favorite two Jills, by the way. Uh, not that I just, I don't know hardly any other Jills, but you and my wife, Jill are both little. Smart Jills. Smart Shorties. Yeah. Uh, so. There's not a lot of us. You're right there. Yeah. Um, alright Jill, let's, let's jump in the, uh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. Okay. You are Seven years old. Oof. Where are you? Yeah. Seven. Gosh, what's that? First grade? Yeah, second grade, probably. First, second grade. Yeah. Ooh, this might get emotional, though. Okay. Well, I mean, that's what we're here for, is to tell your story. Yeah. Seven year old me. Let's see. I definitely have vivid memories of school. So loved school. I thrived in school, loved my teachers, loved my friends. Um, where were you? Colorado Springs. Okay. Yeah. I was born in Colorado Springs, born and raised. All right. Um, and yeah, I, I loved academics and playing and making friends, very social kid. Um, You haven't talked about your family at all yet. Yeah. I'm like, what path do I take here? Yeah. So my, I grew up in, um, Colorado Springs with my parents and a younger brother. So I was the oldest. I had a brother. He's two years younger than me. Yeah, and My parents were both alcoholic. Really? Mm hmm. Yeah. So at that point in my life as a seven year old I had no idea, right? This is just like norm. It was just I'm kind of mom and dad have a few glasses of something actually Yeah, or even that I I don't even know if I can really pinpoint like key memories where I thought anything different of what my family structure was. It's just what I knew that was probably at the point in life where, you know, I was having sleepovers at my best friend's house and her family's different. Like there's just a different vibe and dynamic and I feel really safe at her house and I feel really safe at school. Uh, so were they, Not to mean to you or, um, no, to each other, to each other. Definitely. Yeah. So, um, screaming fights, occasionally throwing things, occasionally, whatever. Yeah. A lot of stuff that drunk people do. Right. Yeah. Fighting avoidance. I mean, if anything, it was kind of a, you know, walking on eggshells. I was learning at a really young age that to be seen and to be known. and approved in my family, I had to achieve. I was a straight A student. I never had to be told to do things. My room was meticulously clean. It, you know, means to which I could control my environment was part of that. But I definitely learned, I think that was definitely a pivotal age where I was starting to realize like, I don't have the security and love. that I think and I see in, in my friends and maybe what families they have. And my parents were high functioning, you know, so you would never guess it. Like teachers couldn't really guess. I was a straight A student. I did well in school. I was, uh, I was, how did your brother respond? He was two years younger. Yeah. Two years younger. Definitely different. Um, we're like complete opposites in a lot of ways. Um, I, I, I had to grow up fast. Right. Like I had to. Right. You were the older, you were the responsible one when you were Yeah. I was the responsible one in the house. Yeah. Or I'm like making sure something I get myself out the door. Does everyone get, like, do we all have what we need? So I felt at a young age, like a provider for him. Yeah. Um, he's also type one diabetic, so that contributed in factor and it has been from early. Yeah. He was three, so. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So is that something that happened from alcohol? No. No, it's just kind of a randomized thing. Yeah, it's genetic. It is, okay. Well, they say, I mean, everybody, all of us carry, I guess, the factor that, you know, you could be type 1 diabetic. Well, a lot of people push themselves into diabetes from lifestyle, but that's type 2. That's type 2. Okay. Yep, type 1 is something you're born with. Okay. It either displays itself later in life or way young in life. It just really gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So we knew at a young, he was, so he required extra care, attention. So then he required so much extra care and health, you know, like health awareness and awareness for us as a family. And then, um, That contributed a lot to his behaviors and like just his needs and life to being different like I felt like I just became the easy child Like I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna cause issues. I'm not gonna cause problems I also wasn't monitored very closely, right? So I got away with everything Yeah, like the things that I got away if you wanted to stay over at Susie's place, it was fine I got to do yeah, I was kind of roaming the neighborhood type kid, but you were kind of chill Self constrained it sounds like you're responsible. Yeah, right. You didn't want to get caught doing anything. Yeah I kind of just didn't want to do anything bad, you know, like I'm like, I kind of want my freedom I kind of want to roam don't want to be told what to do necessarily or told no this didn't like manifest and further abuse Do you eyes? none of that stuff just kind of No, I know I've been fortunate. Yeah. Um, so, and really our, you know, our whole family genealogy, um, is riddled with alcohol abuse, addiction, depression. I poured my second tequila here. I know, I already enjoyed my tequila. So we could, that's a whole, yeah, another conversation probably, but that, that was my seven year old, like childhood self, I think was coming to the realization, I think that I, no one was coming for me. Yeah. No one's coming. Self reliance was an early value. Exactly. So you kind of hinted toward your like middle school, high school days, is that kind of a continuation of the same straight days? Mm hmm. Athletics at all? Athletic. Yeah, um, all in Colorado Springs. Yeah, we didn't, I mean, that, that was the thing on the outside. Um, you know, we had this, we had this secret we were just keeping really well. Like we had clean, nice clothes, a nice house, food on the table. Right, right. You know, all of kind of what are the typical signs you may see on the outside. Where'd you live in Colorado Springs, by the way? Yeah, um, we were kind of central. I lived at, uh, near Uinta and Union, uh, when I was living there for my work. So we were a little north of that. So like Dublin was one of the main, yeah, Dublin Academy. Yeah, yeah. That's a neat area of town. Yeah. It was. It, it's, it's a pretty city. I mean, it's unrecognizable. It was so huge. And like, I was 20 minutes early for every appointment when I moved back to Northern Colorado. It's like, it doesn't take 45 minutes to go somewhere in this town. What the hell? Right. It's crazy. Spread out. Okay, so, and then, like, college days come upon you? Um, did you, yeah, what was that? Yeah, yeah, through coming up, college for me was, this was an opportunity for me to just, Learn who I am. What do I want to do with it was to me? It felt like it's late almost. Yeah, and I needed to get out right like I I have never returned to Colorado Springs to live But I had no desire to go back are you worried that your folks might listen to this and So my dad passed away when I was in college of cirrhosis of the liver. So alcoholism eventually took his life. Um, and then, yeah, I don't know with my mom, we'll see. I'm sure there's. Some love there, too. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is my story, right? Like that's the thing too is it's like I have that mindset sometimes of like, oh, what are what's my family gonna think or? Am I airing too much? Well, you can only control you Yeah, you know and that's kind of the big thing about the world today not to flash forward to politics But like when you try to make people do stuff You can't. Like you can try to encourage them to do stuff and whatever, even in your EOS world, right? Like you can't make them do it. You can make different decisions, but. Exactly. We can only control ourselves. Yeah. Our result, our response. Yeah. And our stories are our stories. So, where did you break to? Did you come to CSU? No, I went to University of Northern Colorado. Okay. And it just so happened. I mean, there are fond memories I have with my visiting the school with my dad and that being the only place we visited and we went on a college visit and, um, That's kind of one of my final core, like, positive memories of time that I spent with him was really good because the vibe felt good. It just, you know, like in my gut, it was like, okay, um, I didn't know what I wanted to major in. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Well, you could have probably got lost in the shuffle had you went to a really big school right off the bat, even though you were super smart. What would you get in your ACT? Oh gosh, yeah, I'm not a good test taker. Okay, just curious. I know, I'm not a good test taker. You seem extra smart, but, you know. Oh, thank you. But, test takers, it's different. Exactly, it's different. Right? It's worth 5 points, 7 points. Exactly. Some of those tests. I get, I get major. Like, I'd rather have somebody that worked hard. Yeah. And got anxious about taking tests. Okay. I was a huge anxious test taker. Like, I don't even think about it. I just like roll in, got no sweat, you know. Oh my god. I would freak out. So, I mean, college, my experience in college was like, oh my god, like, this is hard. Because so much of it is based on like, Hey, what'd you learn? Do you know it, you know? And you're like, Oh my God, all the tests. And the, so I ended up in journalism, um, as my major, because I'm like, if I don't have to, if I don't have to, you know, compute, I just read it. I say, yeah, I'm like, I can write my way through this. Um, but, and then Spanish was my minor, which was one of the hardest things I've done in my life was really trying to learn, A foreign language later in life. I did Spanish in high school, but Are you fluent now? I wouldn't say I'm fluent. Um, I can maintain conversation in Spanish and when we go to Mexico and visit and stuff I feel like I can I'm I'm more of a visual learner so I can read I can read Spanish. So that was what made getting through college as a Spanish minor somewhat easy because I could write essays. I could write in Spanish and read in Spanish really well. Delivering it from the stage would have been a different story. Yeah, when I'm like forced to have a conversation, it's a little more intimidating. What are the, uh, One of the, Alma is bilingual and one of her folks are from Mexico City area originally, but one of her, one of the funniest stories that she's ever shared with me is like when her and Isaac went to Mexico, maybe for their honeymoon, like she would like be using Spanish to like order food or different things like that. And there's a lot of conversations and then the, the other person would get frustrated and shift to English because she's just not fast enough on Spanish anymore because she's just. You know, spends a bunch of time with us gringos and whatever up here in Colorado. I know. We try. So it goes. Yeah. Um, so yeah, feel welcome to, uh, invite Oma for a Spanish only coffee sometime. She would probably love it. She could be my teacher. Well, and plus she's a, she's an operations manager, integrator in training. So, uh, I'd love to just have, I'll treat you for the coffee for sure. Aw. Anyway, I digress about that. So, so you're colleging away, your grades are fine. They're not stellar, but I mean, they're pretty stellar. Okay. I got through college. Yeah, just fine. I think I, I probably put so much pressure on myself to do extremely well that I limited myself and shorted myself. I think of like, uh, You know, you didn't have a proper party girl. No experience. No, I was like, I don't want to do that Like I was too cool for that granted though, too, right like my story entails Alcoholism in the family and my junior right before my junior year of college my dad passed away Okay, so my 21st birthday I don't really have a desire to drink alcohol. I don't really know, like, how to process this and who I am and, you know, like, I think the understanding of, Yeah, what a fascinating perspective. I'm sorry to, like, stop you, but I, I haven't really considered that. My father was the son of an alcoholic, uh, and his eventual stepmom was as well and whatever. And so we never had. Like, my dad was too poor. We were too poor for him to spend any money on alcohol. Otherwise, we would have been broke forever. Right. Um, and so, and Jill and I don't have, my wife Jill and I don't have any kids, and so I've got this kind of loose relationship with them. Responsibility in some ways in comparison to where he was. Yep. Um, so anyway, I digress. Uh, almost, uh, almost, uh, a flip of perspective in some ways for the two of us. Exactly. Yeah. College, that era of my life marked the start of healing. So, that was the start of my healing and discovery journey because, you know, the, the disease and understanding the disease of addiction and alcoholism was the whole first phase of that journey. Was that part of your journalism? Yeah. Thing? Like, you were like, yeah. Yeah, checking it out. What is this really? Yeah, what's going on and research and writing about it going to Al Anon Understanding the mechanisms in our brain and like addiction just understanding addiction itself Because that that whole phase of my life turning 21 was like, oh if I drink do I have a problem? Does that mean I'm an alcoholic? Does that mean I'm an alcoholic? If my parents are an alcoholic. Or all my friends are alcoholics. Right! Right? They've been drinking a lot. It's college. So truly understanding it I feel like is a gift now that I have and can, um, Can speak truth to, um, but it's definitely something, I mean, addiction is also a personality type, right? So then in that phase two is like, where, what, where, and what am I addicted to? Um, do you have any theories? Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely addicted to achievement. I'm addicted. And that's driven is one of my favorite books. If you've read driven, I have not, um, where. There's, there's this genetic factor, and I won't go into the science involved, um, but a lot of the book talks about the genetic factors in this allele that we have on one of our genes that contributes to the fact that, you know, we have this drive in us because of the fact that there's not, there's the synapses in our brain that isn't triggering the, um, Achievement response. Or the dopamine thing. Virtually. Yeah, the dopamine response of like, you've arrived, or like, you, a reward mechanism. I wanna interrupt you, um, what, what did your parents do? Yeah. For careers, if anything, for your mom, I don't know. Very, very driven, too. Yeah? Okay. Like I said, um, my Interesting. Yeah, my dad was extremely intelligent, um, extremely charming. He had a master's degree in business administration. Okay. So went and got his MBA. He was in the military for several years. He was appointed to West Point. Wow. So, and he was a collegiate athlete. Like, he was, um, And then what? Extremely talented. Like as you were 7th grade. He was in managerial positions, I think really like after the drive of like West Point and finishing his career in military and then he got his MBA to be manager, like managerial positions. Right, right. He was with the post office in Colorado Springs. Right, right. You know, I think that's where like. So, I want to interrupt you because one of my theories, like, this isn't part of the hallows relational intelligence framework, but one of my theories is that addiction and addictive behavior is at least prevalent in orange types that aren't achieving, that aren't like having hard goals to pursue and stuff. Your dad was kind of in coasted mode with the post office, bringing in the paychecks and that was boring AF. Right. Um, and he filled that hole with alcohol. I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's just kind of me adding onto this framework that the Hellos guys have. But when you're like not in your space that you need to be, it's like causes problems. Yeah. Oh, and so anyway. Cause it's all a matter in addiction of where we're channeling it. Yeah. Yeah. Like what are we channeling our energies to and what, what that driving force is pulling us to. Um, we can either mask it. Right? Like you mask it, or it gets too challenging, or it's too painful, um, so if you're running away from pain, or running away from fear, rather than kind of pushing through and charging through the fear. So I think that's more or less what became my addiction was like this addiction to overcoming and achieving and kind of pushing through whatever it looks like. How about your mom? What? Yeah, my mom had a financial background, so they actually met, um, in like stock and brokerage, like financial advising. So they were, you know, probably more versed in finance side of things. Yeah. Okay. Um, anyway, I, I sidetracked you on that, but I just, well, that's good. I, I. I thought I learned something there potentially. Um, so college is wrapping up. You're, were you living in Greeley on campus, hanging out, building friends? Like, do you have a lot of friends or not many? Cause you didn't have a big social sphere? I mean, even though I wasn't partying, there's a lot of people that don't party, you know, right. I definitely had a strong social circle. That's how I met my husband. Um, my roommates were friends with his roommates group. So we were like. camping and hiking and going to drive ins and you know, that was kind of like our coming to Fort Collins a lot Yeah, we're like let's go to Fort Collins so yeah Great social circle. They were my backbone and support when my, when my dad passed away. And so we grew super close. A couple of my roommates, I mean, friends started getting married really young too. That was kind of a part of our journey. Um, yeah. And me too. Yeah. So Greg and I met and then, uh, I was a junior. It was right after my dad passed away. So we became really good friends and hung out with the same circle and crowd. Um, of course, when I go back to that moment in time where I met him, I was like, you know, and maybe it's hindsight, but I was like, I knew. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, we just talked about that. Oh, we just like, it was love at first sight. I just didn't feel as quite as much. I think he did too. Like I, we instantly gravitated to one another and I love it. Um, we just talked, we could talk and talk and talk for hours, you know? So we'd go camping with friends and people are always like, Oh, you know, cause we were like, One fourth of the long term relationships that I have gotten to know, it's like it was almost like a Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably kind of rare. I mean I Yeah, but one in four is a lot. Yeah, that's true. Because people meet a lot. Like, you meet a lot of people in the course of your lifetime. And so Yeah. Like, Jill and I were largely the same, you know? It was like Yeah. We just kind of wanted to be together forever after we met. Um, and what a sweet thing that he was there for you and that obviously really hard time. Yeah. Yep. Um, so you graduate? Yep. Were you married already? No, we, I graduated early May and we were married on 26th of May. So, I mean, we were engaged for a while. So all through, all through my senior year of college. So yeah, I had a very non traditional college experience. Probably, I suppose. I mean, you were all focused on studies until you met this cute boy. And then I was like, all right, now I'm getting married and we're just doing this. Yeah, that really was, that was it. Yeah. We got married and we moved. I mean, we've been in this area and Fort Collins since. Um, like, I don't know how old you are, really. It seems like you're quite a bit younger than me, obviously. But, like, when is this? That you finished college and got married and whatnot? Yeah, um, oop, sorry, 2008. It's just bubble water. It's fine. I know. I'm spilling. So, so yeah. 2008. That's a while ago. Not that long ago. Yeah. 16, 16 years. So yeah. Bring me forward from there. Did you, like, you work in restaurants? You work in, uh, what, like, what were you doing? You got a journalism degree. Yeah. Were you a reporter? No. I know. That's the thing. Like, I got this journalism degree and then I went headfirst into a marketing career. So, um, yeah, Media Company in Loveland, Colorado, which has now been absorbed and acquired since then. Was it like the H& M thing or something like that? No, was it? Um, oh, F& W. F& W, that was what I was thinking of. Yep, and that too, right? H& M was actually a retail store. Yeah. Um, yeah, so media marketing. I just, I delved into a career in marketing and found my passion. And you mentioned earlier, you had a side hustle a bit, did some freelance marketing, I suppose, or whatever. Yep. Um, just, yeah, skill set I learned in marketing and the. It was B2B and B2C, um, my corporate journey involved both of those. So the skill set that I learned in marketing, content strategy, go to market, audience development, digital marketing SEO was like my forte for Well, especially at that time. Yes. Like all these companies exist, they don't have any of what you know. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And they need some, um, so that was a very transformative time, probably. So you were, were you doing mostly that before you came on to this, like, this entrepreneurial thing that you talked about? So, like, working for different agencies along the journey, or mostly one, or you, freelance? So I would freelance on the side of my full time career. Uh, I don't, I don't know, just by, by strange way of connection and people of like kind of word of mouth, you know, Oh, this company needs help with their content development and SEO strategy. So I would freelance on the side of what I was doing in a full time capacity. Um, just with sharing my marketing expertise with more businesses. And then I was having babies. Right. Tell me about that. Yeah. Um, like. How old are your kids? Yeah. So our oldest is 13 and then we have an 11 year old and a 7 year old. Okay. Great. So 11, seven, nice spacing. Yeah. Yeah. We had our first two and it was like two years apart and we knew we wanted more. Um, and we did that whole toddler baby thing and they were like, nope, not doing that again. So we, we allowed for a little bit of a gap. Um, there were things that I, you know. I think, I think Greg would have been ready sooner than I was just to keep going. You know, like we're in it, we're in the phase, but we waited a couple years. You're probably a, uh, 15 to 25 hour a week kind of freelancer at this point, just kind of fitting it in here and there, or were you hustling? No, I was hustling. Yeah. Yeah. There was, after our second was born. Oh, cause you had a job too. Yeah. Yeah. Oh shit, girl. I never not held, yeah, a career, like actual career. So you got all these babies, you're freelancing. Like they're nursing and you're like writing content for your freelance clients. Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. Cause after, I mean, yeah, that's how that happened. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Cause our second was born and it was like, I, that gave me an opportunity with, that was with FNW that I said, Hey, I can be part time, right? This is the whole, the world of like corporate America too, where they're like, well, how's that going to work? You know, and I have like male bosses and, but I had built so much rapport and trust, um, with that team that, I was about to leave that position because I got offered almost double my salary, um, for this other role, I think right after maternity leave. And they were trying to fight to keep me to stay. And I said, I'll stay if I can work 30 hours a week and be home with my kids two days a week. So I made that hustle work for a while. Um, And got an, and they doubled my salary. So at least I got that going, but you could have a reduction in hours and a double salary. Yeah. Yeah. Work harder in less time and we'll give you that salary you want. So yeah, I got to, yeah. All the, the journey of like women, women leaders. Business entrepreneurs and mothers, like that, that whole combination of all of those roles. Did you work with Christy Avery there? Yeah, I love Christy. I imagine. I love her. She's pretty cool. She's my cookie lady too, for a long time. She makes, cause she has her own cookie business. Oh, I didn't even know. Yeah. Avery's sweet. I don't even know. I don't know why I don't get my cookies. Oh my gosh. I need to for client gifts or something. Oh, you have to. You have to. Brandon Avery. If you're listening to this. Brandon's one of my facilitators. I don't know if you know that. Yeah. I know there's connection with him. Yeah. He was a member for a long time. Sold his mark or his insurance business. Yeah. Came in as a facilitator years ago now. Um, I always think of Christy. Yeah. Get her cookies. Okay. I'm not joking. Like, I think I probably spread her business to anyone and everyone I could in Fort Collins at the time. Did she still sell them? I think so. Sometimes I'll see Facebook posts. All right. Good. Yeah. Like she made our kids birthday cookies for like five or six years in a row. Huh. Yeah. Just she's, she's impeccable. Okay. They taste good and they look good. Like to be able to get that combination of like a good cookie that you're like, I actually enjoy this. Great. Cause all the really cool looking, beautiful ones are really hard. Hers are so good. She's got a secret. Yep. I do know her from that. Well, next time I have a large stock of bourbon jeans. And she was, yeah. She was a member of Loco years ago when we first had a Catalyst chapter with, while she was CFO person for F& W and now she's with Craft Beer. Yeah. Yeah. Something. Now what they've evolved to. Yeah. Unfiltered media. Yes. It's true. Yeah. Um, so, so that was there. And then you go to this like small company, like what, what was that chapter change? I know. I think, well, that was after our third was born. Oh, right. So you want to downsize. Yeah. I think those, each of my kids was kind of a pivotal part time job of chaos with this pair of entrepreneurs. Well, and that was full time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I jumped into that kind of just coming into develop and build the, the marketing, go, go to market. Is that was like F a W went through a couple of phases. Did you like, I jumped ship like three years before they went bankrupt. Like, I think I could see the writing on the wall. I didn't like the evolution of like some of my favorite, the CEO was someone I adored and then my direct, you know, uh, manager all the good people left. Yeah, our chief technology officer was near and dear to me and when they, you know, like they were starting to leave, it was evident to me that, like, as the leadership team goes, the rest of the company is going to go. So I tried to kind of hang on, but I was probably one of the early jumpers. I'm like, all right, I'm out of here. So. Yeah. And then one of those guys, I know. Yeah, I know. And I love the people, my story, not yours. Yeah. I'm like, you guys can stay, but I'm leaving. So yep. Left there. And then I, it was really an opportunity for me to explore, uh, entrepreneurial based companies and looking at more of a fix it project. Yeah. I was like, what's something that I, cause all the bureaucracy and red tape that comes with the corporate world was exactly why it was so stifling. Right. And the first place was, okay, what can I build? Whether I freelance. And were you getting your education along this way? I started my master's degree, uh, later. Um, our, our baby was, I mean, she was like maybe one, one or two. Yeah. I had like a one or two year old. I'm like, I think I'm going to go back for a master's degree. That's a great idea. I got an extra four hours a week. Right. Great idea. Great idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was, that was fun. Um, so that was later. So we kind of, kind of covered most of the rest of that journey in a way, right? Like we kind of talked about your operations manager thing and shifting to where you are today. Yeah. Um, we have mandatory segments, uh, that start right now. Faith, family, and politics. Ooh. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I didn't know this was coming. Oh yeah, you didn't read the overview email then apparently. No. I could tell you didn't read it earlier. So we always talk about faith, family, and politics because we're not supposed to talk about such things. And I think that's bullshit. I love it. Um, and you can start in any order. Um, and all questions are still like on limits, like there's no questions off limits, but um, yeah, tell me about, uh, where do you want to start? Do you have a preference or do you want me to just hit the questions? I think we can hit the questions. Um, you know, I'm so curious about your family, honestly, um, but not your parents so much as your children. Oh, yeah. Um, and so. That's going to make me cry. Well, good. Well, good. Um, but first we're going to talk about Greg. Like, uh, like I can see his perspective. You're like this gorgeous, super smart, athletic, um, grieving person that he can potentially take advantage of and get her, her sympathies. But what was it about him, what was it about him that made you open that door? Sorry, Greg. I know, that's so funny. Like, the opportunity is ripe. This is very, we're plucking right here. Right. What, wait, what's the question? What was it about him that really set him apart from maybe other people in your life at the time or whatever? Yeah, that's a good question. Cause this is like the 20 year old version of myself that saw something in someone that, um. You barely knew who you were almost at that time in comparison, like you were probably less fully developed. As a human than most people at that age, but not most people. That's a judgmental thing, but, but you were definitely still in a much more finding yourself mode. Yeah, I was super young. Yeah. Super young and fragile. Um, I think honestly that the fact that it was just so easy, it was safe. It was safe. He was such a safe. accepting, great listener, uh, and is right. Like, I don't, he hasn't really changed no, like he has not really changed. He is a steady beam. Always level, always just steady. Like it just seemed like nothing. I mean, his faith and what grounds him, um, and, and his faith and belief and just like grace and life. He just navigates just so beautifully. Like nothing could faze him. Right. And I'm like, Oh, I want to, I want more of that in my life. Was that a function of his kind of upbringing and stuff? Probably too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, study your home, you know, not the same dynamics like his, his family definitely has, but also probably more of a function of his archetype. Yeah, he's just that way. Exactly. He's like middle child, super flexible. Just, he goes with the flow, but he's also, he's an instigator. He's an initiator. He's super, Cool. Intentional. Yeah. So I think that stood out to me like he wants to deeply, he's, he's extroverted and he, he gravitates toward energy of people, but he comes off as more shy. Yeah. Right. So he is the kind of person that, like, once you're in. He's like the most interesting and interested person. Like he just is interested in really knowing people and me being deeply authentic and like, you know, kind of being able to see through that to people. I was like, he's my kind of person. So I could see that early on. Yeah. And remind me, um, was it you or him that was like, Totally smitten on first. I don't know. You mentioned one of the two. I know I think What's funny is because we everything happened so fast for us, right? Um, I want to say that it was like I knew first but I was so coy and like I'm I'm not Um, I'm not gonna let that off, but he would always say like, no, I knew, I knew you liked me. I knew I had a good chance when I asked you out, so it just worked out, but it, it didn't take long of like just a budding friendship to then turn into, yeah, the rest being just the rest of the story. Yeah. Um, what do you think his colors are? it's uh, to remind you it's white, blue, green, orange, brown. Yeah. Definitely. He has a lot of the social as well. That's what I thought. Yeah. Just compassionate. Very empathetic. Social leader. For sure. Um, but he's also, he's very analytical. So that would be more in the thought. The blue type. Yeah. The blue. Yep. Yep. Because he, yeah, he, he provides, you know, if ever there's something I'm thinking through, I have to process out loud and he can like, he'll like lay all the options on the table and you're like, that's too much. Like this, he'll take it to the next level of analytical data, you know, that I'm like, okay, my brain does not go that way. A little bit more instinctual rather than that. Right. I'm like, I need just a little more of a gut check. Like, how's my gut check? But he's super analytical and can, he, He can see, he sees multiple perspectives. He's multi perspective, right? So sometimes that's He might have some brown type in there too. Totally. Like, well, and, and greens see things from other people's perspective really I think he's super multi, he's multifaceted. You know, uh, Wade Troxell was my guest on a podcast when we, uh, talked about Halos one time. Okay. I can't figure him out. He's like, Like at the top of the pile on all the different types almost. Yeah, uh, sometimes you get those that you know, you just can't put it in a box. You can't put all of them in a box. Yeah, yeah, um, we, uh, since you didn't read my email, this would be a surprise to you too. I skimmed it. One of the questions we always ask is, uh, uh, what's a one word description for your children? Each of them. Starting with the oldest, we'll say. Ooh. Yeah, one word. One word. You can hyphenate. Ish. Yeah. You know. Uh, and you can expand upon it, too. Okay. Oh, gosh. But their one word is the most important thing. Yeah. If it was on their, if it was on their baseball jersey. Yeah. Or their hat. Ooh, my gosh. I should have prepped for that. Um, okay. Yeah. I think sometimes the ones that just come off the cuff are probably the most true. Right. I know. So starting in, I guess, an order. So our oldest Camden. What's that? Sup Camden. Camden. Sup Camden. Sup. Sup. He's 13, right? She. So all girls. Oh, Camden I thought was a boys name. We have pretty gender neutral names. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, Camden. I haven't met a girl Camden yet, so I apologize Camden. I'm so sorry. She gets it all the time. She'll take it, yeah. Yeah, they all, all three of them, they get assumed to be boys. Um, Camden is Gracious. Very sweet words. Gracious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, do I elaborate a little bit? Yeah. Um, she's just You can talk all about her if you want. I know. She's forgiving. She's, um, she's curious. Like, she's not easy to win over. Okay. Yeah. She's not easy to win over. Um, so she's, she's got a safe amount of skepticism. Yeah, yeah. But then she's super accepting. Yeah. Of people. Yeah. And maybe not so much in this phase. Very well, she's 13 right now. So that graciousness is like, I'm still, yeah, I'm like channeling it, that as truth because, um, in the long run, I know she'll come back. Um, but she's, yeah, just a tender soul. Um, and yeah, just grace giving, you know, like we just give it and she kind of creates that space. I like it. Yeah. Hoo, Leighton. Hmm. This is another girl. Leighton's the middle. That sounds like a boy's name. Right. I know only one other Leighton. And that's a boy? It's a boy. Yeah. Sorry, Leighton. I know. I mean, I think it's special. You say gender neutral, but it sounds like gender confusing. Uh, one of my best friends is Jodi. He calls himself the last known male Jodi. Right. I only know male Jodis, which is so funny. Yeah, the only Jodis I've met. I'm like, isn't that a girl's name? Yeah, but I only know one. Yeah. It's a boy. Okay. Uh, anyway. So Layton. It's expanding our horizons. Yeah, gender neutral. What would you say about Layton? Oh, Layton is just passion. Passion. She's 11 you said? Yeah. She's 11, turning 12 this year. Yeah. She's always gone her own way. Nothing stands in her way. She pursues things wholehearted and she will not take no for an answer. For an answer. Fair enough. Yeah. Always, you know, wanting to do everything better than Camden could. Right? Like, oh, I can, I can easily do that too. And can she? A lot of times. Yeah. Yeah, they are neck and neck with each other competitively. athletically, musically, academically. Okay. What's the musically? Are they? Yeah. Pianists. Yeah. They've done piano since they were six. Damn. Usually the second kid like take something else, right? Like play the flute or something, but no, fuck off Camden. I'm going to play this. She, well, I mean, she owns like a little drum set and a ukulele and a guitar. How much of those she actually like touches. Right. But she's, she's just the passionate fiery soul. Like she'll just. She can do anything. She just says she's going to do it and she does it. Yeah, I dig it. Um, yeah. Seven year old is? Yeah, Rowan. Rowan. Yeah. A boy? Girl. Right. I knew that was probably true. Yeah, all girls. Yeah. I don't know any Rowans. I know, even like making appointments and stuff. Boys are girls. With their names. They're like, oh, his date of birth? And yeah, all girls. Rowan is our baby. Yeah, she was going to be a Rowan whether she was a boy or a girl, so we had decided that name before we knew if she was going to be a boy or a girl. And what's her one word? Yeah, one word. Um, playful. Oh, that's fun. Mm hmm. That will, uh, probably serve her well. Yes. She's always smiling. She's our most extroverted butterfly, socially. So she just goes from, she just bounces from one friend to the next. She's playing with this friend, neighbor, and they have to go home and she finds another friend. And she's just always floating around. I dig it. playing with someone. She's definitely playful. Where do you guys make your home? Yeah. Here in Fort Collins, South end. South side. Yep. So there's like all these cul de sacs with lots of little kids. We live on a cul de sac street. Yep. It's a, my wife and I live in old town and like, no people with kids can live in old town anymore. So like, unless they've lived there forever or whatever, but it's a, it's, it kind of sucks compared to what it was when we moved there. Yeah. 15 years ago, which at that time there was families and there was like a lot of young people, like 25 year olds, 30 year olds. We were in our low thirties, but now they can't afford to live out there anymore. So the world is weird. I know. Um, but there's still some neighborhoods where there's just a bunch of young families. So that's cool. You're one of them. Yep. We're on that side of town. Um, Do you want to talk more about your family, in terms of your father, your mom, your brother, anything like that? You feel like we covered that okay? I think we covered that. Okay. Yeah. Faith or politics next? Hmm. I know you still told me to ask the questions, but. Yeah, let's do politics. Okay. Yeah. Um, the debate is this week. Okay. Trump v Biden. Yeah. Um, whose sign you got in your front yard? I don't have a sign yet. Okay. I don't have the sign out. Um, but anyone but Trump is my sign. Okay. That's fair. Orange Man. Bad. It's a, it's very much a political party. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Um, yep. What, uh, what do you like about. That he's not Trump. Is that an answer? That's a really sad state of affairs, frankly. I know. I know. No, in honesty. I'm just saying. It really is. I know. That's the thing. I'm voting for RFK, personally. Like, I'm not gonna, I haven't voted for Trump. I haven't voted for Biden. I voted for Kanye. Oh, good. Last election. Great. I mean, I couldn't do it, you know? Yeah. So, I would encourage that for what it's worth. Because. Biden will probably win Colorado anyway, so. I mean, we're just Or RFK will. I, actually, I think RFK has a 15 percent chance of actually being president. Really? I'm not even paying that close attention because Like 60 percent of people don't want it to be Trump or Biden. I know. Like that wouldn't take a very big turnout if they would actually just, but, but RFK is canceled from the debates, uh, because he's only got 12 percent and he's not on the ballots of Right. Neither are Trump or Biden. Mm hmm. The conventions haven't happened. RFK is on more ballots than Trump and Biden right now. Anyway, you don't pay a lot of attention on the national stage at least. I can't. What do you mean? I, I feel, I just, after 2020 or sorry, after 2016 and that whole era, it became this like stoicism. It was like a, it was a deep approach for me of being able to like focus on what I can control. Okay. Because here I voted and it, you know, what the hell just happened? Right. Like it seriously became kind of the worst case scenario to me happening. Interesting. That's how it felt. But did it happen then? Did, like, was the Trump presidency like this terrible thing? In a lot of ways. Yeah. I mean, I think we're just in a, it's just a strange state that we're in as a nation. Like, I think just very polarizing. Like it is such a polarizing. Oh, for sure. I don't disagree with that, but I guess I don't pin that on Trump personally. I think it's like, it's the truth of where we are as a people. I think that points to like, not really knowing what we need in a leader and what's important and fighting about maybe what's not as important. Yeah, I agree with all those things. In terms of leading an action. You should look at RFK, honestly. Yeah. Okay. Um, like he's actually talking about things like health, like things like war, like things like immigration. Things that are probably more important in the longevity. Oh, totally, totally. And he got totally blackballed by the Democratic Party. Like he was running a reasonably decent campaign, but they changed all the rules so that an independent candidate could not win states, period. I know. Is that ever going to happen? You know? Well, but it could. But not when the parties change the rules. No, and that's what I think is like, is this game just rigged? Oh, totally. It is. Hell yeah, it is. This game is always rigged. What do you think? So here's my, here's my over under for you. I bet there's a 50 50 chance that Biden is not on the ballot in November. I bet that the Democratic Party at the convention will be like, well, Biden will announce his resignation for health reasons and they'll put Gavin Newsom or Michelle Obama in there They don't think Biden can beat Trump. Right. Um, and that will be a complete circumvention of the democratic process. Like a whole bunch of people voted for Joe, Joe Biden in the primary and the party's just going to like choose who's next and change it. Like, I don't know. It's like what kind of controls are actually in place here. I wonder. Yeah. It'll be interesting. I know. I try not to You're a stoic. It's fine. Yeah, I'm a stoic. I will just say that. I try not to Are you an independent? Or are you a democratic? Uh, I'd lean more democratic. Yeah. Um Not a libertarian in disguise? No. I don't know. Um, I think it's one of those things where it's like there's certain things that are for sures for me and the others that are a little more gray where I'm like, eh, how much is it? What are your for sures? Um, I think we put so much emphasis on, um, rights and controls of those rights. Um, I don't know. My for sures are a lot more specific. are a lot more in the care of those in our community. So without like putting a label to like calling it socialism, if you will. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, where I feel like we have support for the left behind. Exactly. Like, I think that there's just more ways that we're, that we could utilize. Structures and infrastructure in a government to care for our people. Oh, for sure. There are. So I think those are more redfishers. The way we've let our inner cities rot in this country is despicable. When we're investing hundreds of billions of dollars every year in a bunch of other countries. Exactly. We just let these places be where a kid can grow up and barely ever have an opportunity. Yeah. access, education. Yeah. So I think those are, if there's any for sures for me, um, and then just people being able to choose their rights. I think we overemphasize like protection of rights of guns, for example, where like, we're, we're also saying that, Um, a woman can't choose whether or not, you know, she has, has a child that she's, you know, or aborts a child or like just the, there's just so much, um, do you think the father should have a say in that conversation? I don't know. Um, No. Like, I hear a lot of people say the man should just step out, it's not his body, right? But he did put his sperm inside there and it's a baby. That's complicated. Like, you can kill it or you can not kill it, but it is his creation with her. Sure. I mean, that just gets so complicated. So if a man says, well, I know, but that's what we do this show for is sometimes to get into the hard stuff. I know. That's Or how about 30 week, 25 week abortions? I know. I know. That's rough. Like Colorado right now is basically all the way up till the head comes out, you can kill it. Yeah. You know? That doesn't seem right to me. Especially as a, as a man that could have fathered a child, I don't have any children as far as I know, but it wouldn't feel right if the mother of my child aborted my eight month old baby. Fuck that. I'll take it. I know. You know, I'll just take it. You don't need to kill it. I'll take it and I'll find a good home for it. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's, what's so challenging is I think that. Are we trying to confine what's allowed and what's deemed acceptable based on what we would or would not do? You know? It's like, I can't impose that. I don't know someone's background. Well, laws and morality are so much different. They are. And, and circumstances are always subjective. Mm hmm. And so writing laws that are objective. Right. Is a big challenge. Yeah. It's all objective. Well, that's probably if I have one pillar in mind. The politics realm, well, it's two. One, power always corrupts. So the more power you give anything, the more corrupted it's likely to get. But then two, is that you can't make people do stuff. You know, and so, um, and, and to some extent that includes, like, as a husband, as a father of a child, you can't make me allow this. I don't know, it's hard, like, I get the notion that boys should just stay out of that conversation, but it involves us, you know, so, to some degree it does, it does, um, let's go to faith since we'll continue on with the hard topics, okay, uh, did your family have a faith background at all? Yeah. Okay. We do. Yeah. So, uh. Going back to the seven year old? Yep. Everything? Irish Catholic alcoholics. I've noted a lot of those over the years. They kind of all go hand in hand. Yeah. Not always, but. I grew up in the Irish Catholic. The trifecta of Irish Catholicism. Uh huh. Yep. That was my upbringing. Okay. Um, I, I think my, on my dad's side is a little more egno uh, Atheist and kind of just neutral, right? Um, easier to call yourself a Catholic and not really, yeah, like just kind of like, all right, we'll just go along with this. Yeah. Christmas and Easter is fine. Exactly. Yep. And then, um, for whatever reason on my mom's side, yeah, she took us to Um, and then I became, I went through the, the First Communion, the Catechism or whatever that stuff is. Right. Okay. I actually liked it. You know, like I, there was a lot of structure, a lot of foundation and probably, I hate to say it, but it probably transmitted a lot of your values to you, whether you like it or not. It did. Yeah. I, I mean, I, as far back as I can remember, I had a relationship with God, right? Like praying and just knowing of a higher power and knowing something beyond what I experienced was for something bigger was like, I just, Always had that faith even as early as I remember. So I think like the, the track with Catholicism, I was like, I don't care how, you know, traditional or legalistic this feels or whatever it might be, like it was an upbringing and learning and that I gravitated to. And then, um, then I, Kind of went on a different path through high school and college. Um, just a non non denominational faith. With your parents? No. Or separated from them? Separate. Okay. Yep. It was just my You're like 15. You're like, I'm going to church with Stacy. Yeah. Yep, I'm going to church with, yep, youth group. Can I go to this youth group? Yeah. Yeah. And that was, um, kind of how I delved into that world for several years too. All right. So now I would say I'm like, uh, I'm a recovered evangelical. Okay. All right. Tell me more. Yeah. So New Life Church, Colorado Springs. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'm acquainted. Okay. Uh, I was actually living down there when that whole thing went down with a gay meth head dude in the backseat, whatever. Yep. Um, it was interesting. Yeah. And that's part of my cynicism about the concentration of power. Totally. Like that poor fucker had too much concentration of power and he couldn't help but hire a gay prostitute to bring him some meth. Right, and you have to be this certain way and model this certain Right, there's so much pressure. Yeah, and it's like We're all just humans, like, trying to find faith and be, you know, like. Be mostly as good as we can. Yeah. I think to put this construct of power and pressure on people in a church to also, I mean, there's morals and values and all of those things, but to be holy and good people, but to also, I think there's so much more politically and charged in that community. Well, I mean, think about being the Pope. Yeah. Right. Right. You know your shit don't stink, you know, and anybody, anything you say is basically the gospel. Exactly. In that denominator, in that faith concept. Right. It's like, what are people holding you to? How good is that? Like, how good, how, like, I don't want that job. No. Like, nobody good should want that job. We're all, in the end, we're all just human. Right. So I think it's like putting on this pedestal, this, and that, that really to me, and not to, you know. offend anybody, um, of their faith in maybe that denomination. But for me, I kind of found the other side, um, through more grace giving communities. And now I would say, I guess technically we're Lutheran denomination, um, and what we're raising our kids on and found it in a faith of like great founded in grace and, um, you know, like our, It's not quite so trumpet y about stuff. Yeah, I mean, I guess if, yeah, I mean. I'm from North Dakota, my wife's from Minnesota. The Lutherans up there are like, you might not ever know they're a Christian. Yeah. Depending on how long you talk to them or whatever, they're not gonna go. Yeah, it's not the show. It's more of a personal faith. Yeah. It is kind of, uh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I think the But your faith is, remains. Like, when you say you're an escaped evangelical. Mm hmm. You, you think Jesus is cool still? Yeah. Like, the Bible's mostly legit. Yeah. I think I, I, I, what I took from that experience is Faith is our journey and that's our personal relationship. Like if the relationship and what we embody from that just means so much more to me and has had so much more profound of an impact than me feeling like I have to live my life in a certain way to be accepted and loved by God. Like, I think that. All the early years of my faith was like in performance and reception of something that was already given. Like, yeah, and it's kind of the opposite of Legalism, sometimes. Right. Like, you're trying to check all these boxes to prove that you're really good at evangelical. Yes. Uh, but it's supposed to be salvation by grace through faith. Right. I think, if anything, like, faith should teach us what, what we can ground in in terms of how we're supposed to be to others and how we can give love and life to others in this world. Yeah. But that we don't really have to do anything to earn it either. Well, for sure. I mean, you know, like it's already our, our baptism and significant separation of Christians from most other faiths in the world is that it's about grace, not about performance. So I'd say like, yeah, all of those things stayed intact for the most part. I think there's definitely some things I'm still challenging that I think we're just so ingrained. Through that experience of like, oh that because everything was so black and white. Yeah So anything that teaches you like this is the only way and this you have to do these things and if not You know, it's like should be red flags. Yeah. Yeah You know tell me I must I'll probably tell you yeah piss off, you know, tell me I should I'm a lot more likely to get on board. Yeah, or like hey this this is This gift is free to you. Right. I like that. And just, just how you are. Yeah. Yeah. Um, your loco experience, uh, is the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners. Um, did you think about? That I had a time that you didn't see the email I sent you, so. My most crazy experience. You said yes. I know, I it might be, it might be a day, it might be a week, it might be a year in life. I mean, what's, what's a crazy experience that you might, near death, could have been, you know, near king of the world. I don't know. A crazy experience that comes to mind to you in this moment. Hmm. I think craziest experience is Honestly losing somebody and not crazy like this like why I mean, it's just I think what your dad Yeah, like grief and loss losing people you love to death Um, or even before death right like grieving somebody Um, teaches us more than, I don't know, just more than, you know, I think that, yeah, I'd say that's probably one of my craziest experiences in life because, well, it happened at such a young age, forward of time, right? Yeah. Um, that's fair. Yeah. That I think a lot points back to that and some crazy stuff that happened in that timeframe too. Cause I also happened to be out of the country. I was in South America. Oh. Yeah. That's cool. Um, just, yeah, during college, volunteering, like needed to get out and, yeah, like just doing ESL classes. There was like this opportunity to go to Peru and to teach ESL within this, this school. Um, yeah, he was definitely declining. Okay, at the time. Because he couldn't have been very old, right? No, he was in his late 50s. Yep. Yeah, so and I yeah, just that experience of being out of the country and having I ended up hospitalized there with a stomach infection, so I was super sick at one point. I was mugged at gunpoint there Um, and then. Well, it sounds like your Peru trip. If we're gonna. If we're gonna, like, encapsulate it here. My dad died at the end, I got mugged, I did this, was there some positives in that trip too? Well, sure. I mean, it's, it's all weighted with so much of like those crazy experiences that were happening all in that same moment in my life that it's like, that was a crazy time in my life. Had you met Greg yet when you went to Peru? No, it was right after. Yeah. What a season. I know. Like, I'm like, if I can survive that. Like, that 60 days or whatever was probably some of the most intense. Traumatic. Yeah. It was like, trauma and revival and learning myself. It was the most time I think I had ever spent alone. Sure. Like, during that experience, too, and kind of, like, rediscovering my faith, like, it, I think that, I don't know, but I guess it, it all kind of crazy experience boils down to what was, what it was leading up to was, like, how much, um, yeah, just how In a lot of days, that, in a lot of ways, that trip sounds like it was, and, and your passing of your father, all that, was, like, very much a, like, you, it's the next chapter after that page. It was. Right? Yeah, it was like Or a next act. Right. Or more, more like a next act. Mm hmm. Like you're in the second act now, that was your first act in some ways. Totally. And, uh That's a good way to frame it. I don't know where your third one is, or if there'll be a fourth, but Right. It was a significant thing. Like with all those elements of your life all at one time. Right. And probably the first time you were subjected to real violence or theft, right? Right. Yeah. Mugged. It was like first time really being outside of Colorado Springs, Colorado. It was like a shock to the system. All right. So we'll catalog this and Peru trip is the Peru. I need to go back and reclaim. A Peruvian trip. One of my best friends. Because my last time there was, it did not end well. His family's from Peru and I, I want to go. Um, but yeah. It's a good place. Yeah. Take your husband. He'll like it. Yeah. Um, if people want to, like, look up this crazy small girl that was sitting here with me for an hour, two hours a day. Um, they find you at, uh, Savvy, Savvystrategicpartners. com dot com, or on LinkedIn. I'm all over LinkedIn. You are all over LinkedIn. you? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. It has. That's, yep. That's good. So I can talk to, um, presence and just the networking and community building aspect of LinkedIn too. Another time. Okay. Um, on a scale of one to 10. How much fun did you have this evening? A ten, for sure. Well, good. Yeah, it was totally fun. I knew coming in, I'm like, I didn't prep for any of these questions. Right, well, I didn't have any prepped questions, so. Yeah. That's perfect. Okay. Thanks for being here, Jill. Thank you so much.