The LoCo Experience
The LoCo Experience is produced and sponsored by LoCo Think Tank - and sometimes others! Our mission is to uncover as much business education as possible while getting to know the founders and leaders of amazing organizations. You'll feel like you really know our guests after each episode, and if we're doing our job well, you'll learn business principles and tips from them along the journey and be both inspired and entertained. Episodes feature a range of local and regional business and community leaders as guests in a conversational interview format. The more interesting the journey, the better the experience!
The LoCo Experience
EXPERIENCE 162 | Love to Appreciate and Let Go of the Rope with Diana Rogers Jaeger, author, speaker & leadership and employee retention expert.
Diana Rogers Jaeger joined me for an uplifting conversation and shared her fascinating life and career journey that led her to Northern Colorado in 2022. Diana is the founder and owner of Love to Appreciate Consulting, and recently released a new book - “Let Go of the Rope - Create Unlimited Confidence”. Love to Appreciate was founded in 2017, and is focused on helping companies keep their best and brightest. Initially Diana was particularly focused on creating a work environment that Millennials would be attracted to and wish to remain a part of. Over the seasons, Diana has developed her practice to become a “cultural designer” who helps companies design an integrated and appreciated workforce.
Diana and her siblings have a fascinating life story, beginning in the Philippines as the children of an American father and Filipino mother. As they were preparing to move to America, their father was murdered - and their mother was a prime suspect! The murder remains unsolved, and the children never saw their birth mother again. They departed the Philippines to move to America as a set of five, initially moving in with their aging grandparents - and eventually all being adopted into a previously childless family in the community - and living and learning a life of outdoor adventure and can-do attitude from their adoptive parents.
Diana is a dynamo - all the energy and smarts and wit you could find in a 5’ 1” package, and she shares abundantly from her topical expertise in appreciation and confidence cultivation. She is a great representative of one of Northern Colorado’s strongest import markets - smart, capable, and purpose driven individuals working hard to make their corner of the world a better place. So please enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Diana Rogers Jaeger.
The LoCo Experience Podcast is sponsored by: Logistics Co-op | https://logisticscoop.com/
Follow us to see what we're up to:
Facebook
Music By: A Brother's Fountain
Diana Rogers Jagger joined me for an uplifting conversation a few weeks ago and shared her fascinating life and career journey that led her to Northern Colorado in 2022. Diana is the founder and owner of Love to Appreciate Consulting and recently released a new book, Let Go of the Rope, Create Unlimited Confidence. Love to Appreciate was founded in 2017 and is focused on helping companies keep their best and brightest. Initially, Diana was particularly focused on creating a work environment that millennials would be attracted to and wish to remain a part of. But over the seasons, she's developed her practice to be kind of a co creator. Cultural designer who helps companies design an integrated and appreciated workforce of all generations. Have a fascinating life story, beginning in the Philippines as the children of an American father and Filipino mother. As they were preparing to move to America, their father was murdered. And their mother was a prime suspect. The murder remains unsolved, and the children never saw their birth mother again. They departed the Philippines to move to America as a set of five, initially moving in with their aging grandparents, and eventually all being adopted into a previously childless family in the community, and living and learning a life of outdoor adventure and can do attitude from their adoptive parents. Diana is a dynamo, all the energy and smarts and wit that you could put into a five foot one package. And she shares abundantly from her topical expertise in appreciation and confidence cultivation. She's a great representative of one of Northern Colorado's strongest import markets. Smart, capable, and purpose driven individuals. Working hard to make their corner of the world a better place. So please enjoy, as I did, my conversation with Diana Rogers Jager. You bought the Lifetime Membership? Mm hm. Yep. During the 100th anniversary. I was not a Girl Scout growing up, but then I became an adult volunteer as a troop leader. OK. And then got in really deep. I guess so. I guess so. And then I committed, and I was pregnant. I was like, what happens if I don't have a girlfriend? a daughter. Like, well, I want to be a lifetime member. And I didn't know what I was having it. And I have two sons and I just had decided it doesn't matter. I will always give back. Cause I always want to help build girls of courage, confidence, and character. So it's like, it doesn't matter if I'll never be the troop leader for my own daughter. I will always find a way to bring this just a little closer. Okay. Um, well, We've already met Diana Rogers Jagger, and she's joined me in the podcast studios today at the Loco Experience to talk about her new book, her journey, things that she's most proud of, and her biggest failures, too. Alright. Are you ready to start with that? Let's do it all! So, Diana is the owner and founder of Love to Appreciate Consulting. Um, she moved here from Oklahoma about two years ago. Two years ago? That's right. And, uh, she recently completed a book. The book is called Create Unlimited Confidence in Three Simple Steps. And so, oh, is it Let Go of the Rope? Yes. That's the tagline? That's the main title. The subtitle is actually Create Unlimited Confidence in Three Simple Steps. Oh. The nugget of what the promise of the book is, is how to create unlimited confidence. Wow, let go of the rope seems like, I'm not going to be confident if I let go of the rope though. It's a metaphor. Oh. Related to rock climbing. So at the age of nine, I learned to rock climb for the first time. And I had seen, my father ran a camp in southern Colorado near Alamosa and Monta Vista. And there were usually high school, um, groups that would win. A lot of them were boys. And I just remember seeing these. You know, very athletic, muscular high school boys, rock climbing, and it looked like you needed a lot of upper body strength to do it. So I really had no confidence that I would be good at it. I was always the shortest, skinniest, um, in all my classes growing up. So I really didn't think it was for me. And then my father, who is a rock climbing instructor, you know, had us learn, my siblings and I, and so he coached me through it. And so what happens when you get on the Into your gear and you're ready to climb and you know, you're climbing maybe just like a foot up You want to basically like hold on to the rope. You think it's your Safety net right and it is but you actually can't climb. Yeah, it's not you holding on to it That's making it safe the fact that it's not So my father was like, you have to let go of the rope in order to climb. And so the goal was to climb up. And so that's the thing, right? You have to trust yourself, trust, um, my coach, who is my father, what he was saying that it's safe, and he actually had me climb about five feet off the ground and purposely let go. So I could feel what, you know, how it would catch me. Oh, right. Yeah. So then I could go up higher and not doubt that I was safe. Right. And so that's the confidence building part is feeling safe enough to let go. And that the great things happen when you get out of your comfort zone by letting go of that rope, and you have to do that in order to climb and get to your goal, which. You know, you want to get to the top. Well, you probably found out that being small was actually not a disadvantage in climbing. Exactly. And my dad coached me that it's actually all in your legs, right? You're really not pulling yourself up by your arms. You're finding footholds and toeholds, and you're using your legs to step up. And you use your arms to stay on the wall. Exactly. Exactly. More for balance. And so that, yes, I did actually, um, realize that being, um, You know, really skinny and not weighing very much less than a hundred pounds was actually a strength in rock climbing and Yeah, and it was, it taught me that taking risks is fun, right? Because after you get over the initial fear of, okay, I'm actually not going to die if I fall. I, you know, I am doing a safe sport. Then it became fun because as you're climbing up, you're, you know, You're the only one who got yourself there. Like no one is pulling the rope up. Like you, if you, even if you don't make it to the top and you get halfway up and you look down, you're like, Whoa, this is really high. And I got myself here. And then getting to the top was even more exciting. And then also repelling, which is its own set of fears. When my dad was like, lean, you know, you're at the top, keep leaning back, leaning back, it should be perpendicular. And you're like, what? This does not seem right. But I, he coached me and I listened to what he. You know, he said, and it was true, like, I mean, that is the best position. You can basically walk down because then your legs are going to spring off that wall. Exactly. You know, it took me a long time to be able to, like, bounce down, you know, like the good people did. I was a little bit older, but it was an adventure and a risk that paid off. And I feel like that nugget of a lesson has served me well in my life. trying new, even starting my own business, right? It's like a risk. Um, but I also could see the fun and adventure in starting a new business. Well, one thing I wanted to mention we have in common is I was, uh, I was Kurt the squirt. Uh, when I got to seventh grade, I was I was four foot eleven and a hundred pounds, and at the end of tenth grade I was five foot one and a hundred and ten pounds. Wow. And then I got tall. Uh huh. And super skinny for a while, and now I'm, you know, bigger. The bourbon. But that doesn't matter. It's tequila. It's less calories than tequila. I think that's the weight loss characteristics. Is that what you tell yourself? Um, so, so anyway, I wanted to relate that and it was an interesting perspective, um, and you got quite a bit taller too, right? Yeah, I'm 5'1 Oh, is that all you are? Yes, I am. Well, you have big boots. Yes, I do tend to wear some heels or wedges, but at the age of nine, gosh, I mean, I was probably like 70 pounds or something like that. Yeah, I'm sure I was too. I was always the smallest kid in all my classes for many years. So tell me about, uh, we'll get into the book a little more, kind of the breakdown of what Where the idea came from and stuff. But I want to learn more about love to appreciate, like, what is your business? Who do you help? How do you help them? So I focus on as a consultant, speaker and trainer on employee engagement and retention, helping organizations keep their best and brightest people. And how I started my business is I was a millennial who worked at the same place for 12 years. Okay. Which is really unheard of because, you know, Millennials were nicknamed the job hopping generation. And so all my friends and peers are switching jobs over two or three years and I was there Was it because you were at a good place? Yes. Yes. Like you came to learn that through talking to your friends and stuff that were like, my place is lame or whatever? Yes. Um, toxic bosses, toxic workplaces. Um, so I, I already knew I was working at a great place, but then you hear those stories and it really solidified, you know, gosh. moving somewhere just to a different organization for, you know, slightly more compensation, like what you have to take in consideration, like the, to me, the entire compensation package, right? It's not just what you pay and the benefits, but will I enjoy the people I work with? Will I enjoy the work I do? Will I be treated well? Will I feel valued? You know, all of those things, does it have a mission that I get excited to support? And so when you take in I was, as a typical millennial, looking at the whole package before looking to switch organizations. And there was just enough, what I call, um, I planted deep roots that kept me there. Um, I worked in affordable housing, so I was able to make a difference in that way. And I, the people I worked with were like my work family, so. Tell me about starting Love to Appreciate. Like, did you get trained up in things, or was this just an itch that was trying to break out? Um, it was something I was. Um, I worked in public relations communications, that was my role, and I started taking on employee engagement. For example, we had core values that every few years we would review and see if you wanted to change them, and we'd put it in our annual report and on our website, but we never talked about it, and I just saw that as a missed opportunity. And so I started a core values recognition program, it was called FRITE, because the acronyms of our core values, yes, F R I T E. And so I started an Uh, Core Values Recognition Program, where People could nominate and share stories about how they caught someone being frightful and exhibiting some of those core values. And it really strengthened our culture because people felt good, right, being recognized for, um, exhibiting those core values. And then hearing the stories shared about other people made you feel good to work for the organization and to be associated and be friends with those people. Cause like, yeah. Wow. Like they are, you know, they're great people doing great things. And so, um, I wanted to spend, uh, I was a mom, a young, uh, recent mother, and I wanted more quality time with my children. So I wanted to start a business and I was given the advice. I told you to have more free time that way. I know, right. It's a mixed bag. Um, I, I wanted to be in control of my time. And so, um, um, I was given the advice to, right, solve a problem that people would be willing to pay you for. And so I knew that the recruitment and retention of millennials was very difficult for a lot of organizations. That we were, um, you know, growing in the, by numbers in the workforce. We were starting to take on leadership positions. And, um, the more and more of us were entering the workforce too. And so there was like that generation of workers and a lot of, you know, Old school minded, business owners, just having a job. Mr. Exactly. Appreciate you get a paycheck. Um, didn't understand us. And so I saw that as an opportunity to help solve their problems there in that, uh, you know, you, you worked for a place that had a culture already that you resonated with and felt empowered to like share this idea of the fight recognition program thing. Right. And then that allowed you to even have an impact on it. And I'm sure there's. Probably many other stories of your co workers, your peers, that also had a chance to get their ideas put into action. Yes, yes. Um, actually one of my co workers, um, she was the person who made fun one of our core values. And we were a government trust, and I was like, am I allowed to have fun? It's like, is this allowed? And so that says a lot right there, right? Having an organization that says, yes, we believe in having fun at work. And one of my favorite memories is it was one of the years of the summer Olympics, but scheduling an office Olympics and we had medals and like 12 events like real sporting things are like, well, like, like putting. Three or four office chairs together and you had to like, hook on to the next one and like, you know, walk really fast and race them. We had, um, paper clip, um, creating a chain the longest, like in two minutes. So there are different things, um, like paper airplane contests and things. Different things like that. But, um, people really got into it. You know, people like fun and competition and, you know, winning at something. And it really boosted morale and, um, yeah, and boosted relationships too, right? Because you're having fun together. So that's your core service, if you will, is, is Is it still Millennials, or are you adapting to all these, what do they call these, Z's? Gen Z's. Gen Z's coming in? Um, I'm adapted to all, and actually since COVID, the Millennials are really not getting as much attention anymore. It's just kind of now, today's workforce. The Millennials are easy compared to the It's like current workforce having a job you love and enjoying the people you work with and feeling valued and respected and treated like a human being that knows no generation like we all want to be that way. And I'm proud that it was my generation that started kind of setting the bar and expectations about like, if I'm going to work like it needs to meet these criteria because life doesn't listen back to this episode. They're gonna be like, dude, you gotta make some changes. Oh, and so, um, yeah, life's too short and there's not this wall between work life and personal life. It's just life. And so that's how people in the workforce today view it since COVID because, right. I mean, it just kind of reset our priorities. Um, so I would say like the generation piece is less important. It's just keeping the employees you have and attracting the ones you want. Creating that culture. I just had a three year. Lunch with Alma last Friday, actually. And so she got, she got a raise, you know, and well deserved. And, um, and I'm always like, man, I don't want her to go somewhere else. She's she's money in the bank. And, and. Um, she's like, Hey, you know, you're awfully flexible, you know, and, and what reminded me or of that conversation was at some point in the conversation, she's like, and like, I really think of you as a friend, you know, and that's pretty special. Um, yeah. So, you know, she knows she's appreciated all that kind of stuff, I think, as long as she works hard and. Yeah. Work hard, play hard. I mean, it's important to have, right? I mean, you have to be accountable in the workplace and do what you're paid to do. Yes. That is very important. Uh, is rewarded by flexibility. Exactly. Um, but there's also other things too, right? We're not just here for the paycheck. Correct. So talk to me about how do companies do this? Yeah. Like, like what's that, what are the tools, is it different for every company? I'm assuming that it has to be kind of custom fitted to the culture and what the company actually does? Exactly. So to me, it's less about what the company does though, but it's about who the people are who work in that organization and then aligning their wants and needs with the goals of the organization. So right, some companies have a huge, maybe their goal is to grow, right? Appreciate it. And, you know, in profits, or sometimes it's to grow in size, or maybe it's to acquire another business. All of the above. Yeah. And others, it's just to retain the people they have. And so, based, I'm a problem solver. That's how I see myself. And so I really like to go into an organization, understand what their goals are, what their challenges are, and then design, I'm a culture designer, design the culture and employee engagement, um, to fit that. and getting input from the people who work there. So, you know, in some organizations, like having a Friday happy hour every week is really important to them or having, um, that quality time together and to just like relax at the end of the week. And some other people, it's about more working remotely and maybe their parents and they just, and they need more flexibility. You gotta go pick up the kids, whatever. Exactly. So listening to the current employees and understanding. Like I said, their needs and desires, and then matching that with what the business goals are, because, and that's where the magic happens, because that's where the creativity comes and how are we going to design employee engagement program that aligns with everyone's needs? Yeah, that was the question I was going was. Are you, you're not really designing the culture per se, you're kind of affirming the culture, but supplementing it with systems or recognition things or things that, the culture is already kind of mostly there, or you want to change it sometimes too? Yes, so um, I'm about to um, have a client and they have a They didn't use the word toxic, but I will. They currently have a toxic culture because, um, there has been no intent behind their culture. And so now a few people, um, some managers have been treating people badly and leadership has let it happen. So then it's become the norm and become accepted. And people have been leaving, um, and complaining. And so now it's time to redesign the culture. Gotcha. Right. But it's not overnight. It's not just like I design it and it happens the next day. Yeah. So describe, if you would, like a normal engagement. Does that start with like, kind of a, And then it's like a kind of a long term engagement, maybe once a quarter for a while or something like that. Yes. Yeah. So it begins with the, the assessment and talking to leadership and to cohorts of different people in the organization, understanding the gap between where they are and where they want to be. And then I Kind of traditional strategic planning. Yes. Exactly. Like what is the current status? Yes. Yes, uh huh, right. And then taking that information and like I said, culture design or designing an employee engagement program so that, let's say, um, they want to increase appreciation and recognition. And so what, what, how do you build that into the culture? So it may start with training but doesn't, doesn't, doesn't really work. And with training, right, you have to figure a way to build it into the culture. For example, it, you know, appreciation is part of every meeting agenda, right? Maybe there's a committee called the A team for appreciation team that they're the champions of making it happen so that, um, the organization, if it's important to them, they're going to model those behaviors and make sure it's talked about at company meetings that they're, you know, There's visual signage in the organization that reminds people to do that. They're talking about it, um, and so, right, that's why I'm talking about the design because it has to be woven into the fabric. Some language around what they do and stuff like that. Yes, and it has to be intentional and, um, a huge rollout at the beginning so it sticks, but then you have to keep it going, right? Now, are you going, like, into, like, even some of the mission vision values kind of thing and like redoing some of that with the executive team at time inviting employee engagement. And what are our values? What are you seeing? Exactly. Yup. Yup. I do that too, because that is the foundation. So, I love core values and vision and mission because even if we're, we have different opinions and interests and we're just two different people, right, and there's, you know, a lot of individuals in our organization. If those can be the common bonds of, like I talked about, I used to work in affordable housing, like we're here to make sure that people have a safe, decent place to live. Yeah, yeah. Whether, um, and so if we can come around that. then we have a lot in common. And then again, with the core values, those are standards for, you know, the behaviors that we want to celebrate, um, and how we treat each other. And so, um, And I always talk about the behaviors that because right integrity because you can have words like honesty and integrity is your core values, but I always have the organization translated into well, what does that look like in the workplace? Right? And so putting it into everyday language like integrity means I'm going to do what I say I'm going to do. Right. I mean, that's more crystal clear about how we act than integrity. So I, I like the words are easy to remember, but then you have to build it out so that it's crystal clear to people about the behaviors. Um, you want people to exhibit and then that way you can also catch people doing the right thing. Right. And then if you have that core values recognition program, then everyone knows what to look for and everyone's modeling that to everyone else. Well, and I. I think I'm hearing a little bit of embracing of different ways of delivering on that mission, those values, because there's, you know, some people are really head down. Some people are very, you know, just different ways of being. Yes. Yeah. So, and some people take appreciation differently as well. Like I've had employees before that if I like wrote a LinkedIn post, you know, saying how awesome they were or something that they were like, that was a really good positive. You know, for others, they're like, Eh, I don't, that's not really me. You know, that public praise isn't what triggers my Yeah. So, one of the first things when I started my business is I became certified in the five languages of appreciation in the workplace. And so, research shows Is that like the five love languages spun off of there? Yes, it's spun off the five love languages. You know, just like personal relationships are important, um, work relationships are important, and so they're I wrote about that some years ago, actually. Yeah, I remember that. Um, so there's five universal ways that humans feel appreciated, and most people don't know that. They just know how they feel appreciated, and it's often how they communicate appreciation to others. So, um, Mine in the workplace is words of affirmation, but for other people, they think words are cheap. Like I actually met someone like, yeah, when I get a thank you card, like it means nothing to me. I feel bad throwing it away. As opposed to me, I'm, like, putting it in, like, my keepsake shoebox, you know, because it's so meaningful to me. Um, but, right, the example you gave, even when two people, um, have the same language of words of affirmation, there can be different, um, nuances. So someone might like thank you cards, but someone wants you to sing their praises publicly on LinkedIn or in front of a large crowd, um, and so knowing, like, what makes them light up. Right? Having those detailed information about the words of affirmation is their language of appreciation, and they like it when you praise them in front of others, when you tell others what a great job they're doing, when you compliment them, then your and targeted for that person. Um, but someone else who thinks words are cheap, they value acts of service. They're like, don't tell me, show me. So they want you to, um, help them when you're not, when you don't have to, right? Like if you're required to, then it's not really an act of service. But they really just want you to notice when they need a little help and, you know, help make their lives easier every now and then. And to them, that's much more important and meaningful than a thing. Handwritten. Thank you card. So, um, that's part of like the workforce of today is really getting to know people as individuals. Some workplaces may do group appreciation really well and say, Hey, you know, they provide swag and they have the employees a month. Yeah, company lunch or something like that. But then, um, or they might say, like, our organization's doing well, or good job department, or marketing department. But people want to be seen as individuals. So there has to be balance there. While those things are great, it's, if you really want to communicate your value for someone, you have to speak to the individual. And that's where the five languages come in. And it's one of my most popular workshops. What's the other three languages? So, So it's quality time. Okay. I already said acts of service, words of affirmation. tangible GIFs, and then appropriate physical touch. So it's the same. It's the same elements as the love languages. Yes, but when you take the assessment to identify your languages, physical touch is not even on there. Because it's no one's most important language in the workplace, and there's definitely no no's on what's okay and what's not. Um, and even like, You know, um, I was doing a training and this woman raised her hand and said she likes no physical touch in the workplace. I mean, including, you know, what I say, handshakes, they're usually done in celebration, pats on the back, high five. She's like, I don't want to do any of it. Well, she has a thing about germs. Right. So, it's all, even with that one, it's like. Look at, like, how they react, and if it doesn't seem well received, even if it seems appropriate, don't do it again. But yeah, that one's very low. It's less than 1%. But what surprises people are, you know, there's a lot of gifts being given in the workplace. That's kind of a norm. Um, but it's actually less than 5 percent say it's their, um, most valued. So the acts of service, quality time. So that's like, I know that's one of the things that Alma values. Like tomorrow, her mom doesn't have access to a car, uh, and has a doctor's appointment because her car is in the shop. So Alma's going to go pick up her mom and take her to the doctor's appointment and take her back home and come back to work after two hours or something. And like, to me, that's, That's a great, small benefit that I could do for my team. Yes, it is. Um, very, if, yeah, that is her, and we usually have two. So maybe that's an act of service almost, from my perspective. I don't know if, whether that's quality time, or whether that's Well, um, I would say yes, it is an act of service, and then you're allowing her to have quality time with her mother, too. Yeah, fair. You know? So, um Access to quality time. And that's the thing, too. So you can, when I help organizations You know, design their culture. I try to help them weave in different languages, like, for example, if you had an employee get together. So let's say you provide lunch for the office so that, um, is a tangible gift. You're providing free food. You're providing quality time by letting everyone come together. Let's say you, you know, You know, say recognize a couple of people. Yes. Yes. Do some words of affirmation. Um, you pick up the food. That's an act of service as opposed to having your staff get it right. You know, or you help clean up. So those are things that people, you know, notice. That's like, um, who's, who value those languages, like, they're always the ones cleaning up. But then this time you do it, they're like, oh, wow, this is really, this is really nice. Well, you're really talking about servant leadership, kind of. Exactly. Exactly. And then you throw in some high fives in there. Right. A little crab ass. So, yeah. Okay. Just at the company party. I'm kidding. I just had an HR person on here recently. She's cool with me for that kind of thing. Yeah. That's why I know I always have that like disclaimer about appropriate physical touch because I do speak to a lot of HR groups and I don't want anyone to have a heart attack about like, what are you trying to teach people? Well, I think for, for most of us men, at least like kind of since me too, We're all like, once bitten, twice shy, like I'm always, I'll offer the side hug, but I'm not going straight on anymore, even if somebody has to grab that from me, right? Well, and then some people have even taken to always ask before I go in for a hug, like, is it okay? I'm a hugger. Can I hug you? And then just, you know, wait for that. Well, even for, I'm like, it's probably pretty common still for girls to hug girls, it seems like. Um, and I still have a lot of people that hug me, you know, at the Rotary Club or different places or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And, it's, you know, I don't initiate, I initiate side hugs. I don't initiate others. Yeah, yeah. They don't say where to go. Yeah. So, what, are there certain types, or, uh, you know, are you professional services focused or retail? Are there certain industries or types of company that you find yourself being engaged by more than others? Um. Um. You know, I get that question and I really have just a diverse group of clients from non profit to pharmaceuticals to small businesses, manufacturing. Actually, my longest client is a wood coatings manufacturer. And so I mentioned, I, you know, I'm also a leadership trainer, um, and so oftentimes how I'm engaged is often for a training first, and then it kind of uncovers like, Okay, there's some like deeper things that need to be addressed. And then I'm brought in to do the culture design and employee engagement program. And, um, yeah, Gemini Codings is my longest client. And one of I've done five languages of appreciation training for them. I've helped do their employee engagement program. And And then one of the things I'm most proud of is I've done for the past three years, uh, leadership training program for them that I've designed and facilitated. It's a six month program. Each year they pick 10 people to go through it. And new managers, um, well, the first year the cohort was, um, their upper managers. Some were directors, but people they, um, identified as, um, who would step into an executive role at some point and maybe someone left. Then the second year it was their middle managers, very important to the organization, um, you know, high potential. Then the third year, young professionals that they were scared are going to get poached by the competition. And so they really wanted to bring them in, let them know they had a future at the organization. So we, I, um, Pick the curriculum for the cohort, but it's more than leadership training because I have we it was designed where I had them for two days a month for six months. And so during that time, we're able to do a lot of team building. I had a segment called inside the mind of a leader where we would bring in one of their executives or board members to, they had 30 minutes to talk about their career, um, leadership lessons learned, um, maybe the heart, the hard way. And then I would, and then I would cut them off because I wanted 30 minutes of Q and a, and they had a, you know, a policy like they could ask. Yeah, exactly. And so that built a lot of trust. Well, one, um, just like, Having the CEO like talk about his childhood and how it shaped him. Um, but then yes, asking questions about, Hey, why did, you know, why'd you fire Brian? Yeah. Or why did you buy that company that failed? Like we lost a lot of money and there's so much. Understanding and trust building that goes into that because you think like, Oh, I would have handled it a certain way. Why didn't you? But then they unpack everything that went into that decision. And then when they realized, you know, it wasn't going to work out. All the thought process that went into, you know, mitigating, mitigating it. And so there's, they understood the inner workings of the business that they're usually not a part of. They had a lot more respect for their leadership and knowing what that happens. And then they felt like they're part of the inner circle because they're able to learn so much. And think about the retention piece when you feel like you're part of the inner circle and involved, um, So, uh, that was very important, and then we'd also, a huge piece was, um, that everyone enjoyed is different case studies that, of things that either did happen to the company, was currently happening, or could realistically happen in the near future. So, some of those case studies included, included, I'm from Oklahoma, like a tornado hitting a facility, so it could be a cyber attack. Another one that was currently happening was they wanted to, um, redesign their financial incentive program. So bonuses. What does that look like? And man, everyone had opinion on that one, but then when it came to realizing like what would make the managers happy and the executives happy and the hourly, um, workers happy. It was really hard to design something that would make everyone happy. And, you know, promote working together as a thing. Yes. Yes. As opposed to like, I'm just gonna see why a, you know, I don't care about myself. I'm not helping you, but promoting exactly the goals you want. So, um, in my industry, uh, in banking, there's certain banks over the years that would have like very big incentives for new loan production. So the, you know, bankers might pay Maybe it would make 70, 000 or 100, 000 a year, depending on your tenure and whatever. But some of the banks would, you know, do like, allow you to make 50, 000, 100, 000, 150, 000 extra in like, Commission for landing commercial accounts. And then inevitably within three years, that bank would be in trouble because those people would get through a bunch of bad credit risk customers, you know, when you're, when you're paying that much incentive, cause it's kind of a dual incentive as a, as a commercial lender. You have to go get customers, but don't get the wrong ones. And, and based on those incentives, you, you never know what's going to happen sometimes. You know, if you're incenting based on gross margin of, you know, of a sales of a package thing. Well, maybe then you get your sales people that are ripping off their customers and ruining your reputation. Yeah, that's a great example of, right. It has to promote the positive behaviors that you want. Um, and then something that was likely to happen was an acquisition. And so when you have these problems, right. Um, you put them in groups and they're from different departments and they have to, you know, Use the information they have to make the, you know, the best decision based on what they have, and they really started to respect each other's strengths. Like you may be the numbers guy, but I know operations and this person knows people. And so together with all of our strengths, we can come up with a really great plan. And then they would present that their solution. And then we would have the executive plan. Um, if it's something that already happens, like, actually, here's how it went down, but I like what you said, and I wish we had handled it better that way. Yeah. And so it was a group learning experience and people really learned, um, what each other's strengths were, which means when it came time to real world problems, they're more likely to reach out. Exactly because they worked on this scenario together. So there's, I mean, there's a lot that goes into that leadership program and in it. So over the three years out of those 30 people had a 92 percent retention right. Well, it seems pretty good. Yep. Are you? It sounds like there's a lot of custom creation stuff, but are you choosing from a, aside from the five level languages and maybe there's some materials and courses, or are you part of an affiliation? Are you creating new tools and ideas all constantly for your clients, both? So, with that one, I had a curriculum that we subscribed to with different leadership topics. I see, so there's like different, almost like a database that you can subscribe to. You can kind of get curriculum builders and stuff. Mm hmm. And then I've done a lot of custom stuff on my own. So it's probably half and half, yeah, at the end of the day. Fair enough. Um, should we shift to the book? Yeah, sure. Um, was this, uh, like where, where obviously the let go of the rope has been with you for a long time. Um, has it been a book in your head for a long time? It has. It has. And that's why my husband was like, why are you writing a book on employee engagement, retention, right? Appreciation. And I was like, and I told him, I was like, this book has been in me to write for a really long time. And, um, I mentioned earlier that I'm a lifetime member of girl scouts and actually when I was board chair for two years and, um, that was a huge undertaking. You know, Like Board of Girl Scouts in Oklahoma or something? Yeah, Girl Scouts Western Oklahoma, out the state. And so the book was even delayed those two years because I took up, I ended up taking a lot more time than I thought and so, um, when my tenure was done I was really excited to dive in. But, yes, so I had that experience at the age of nine and my family was very outdoorsy so backpacking. Um, increase my confidence as well. Right. In terms of Well, by the time you're 11, you're like out climbing some of these 14 year old, 16 year old boys and stuff. Some, yeah. But, um, like with the backpacking, just, you know, I was always, like I said, really little. And so we have these thoughts, right? We have our head like, I'm just a girl. Or I'm just a girl. this little, like, short person, like, what can I do? But then, you know, my dad would plan these backpacking trips and I have to carry all my gear and I had no choice but to walk. I couldn't, didn't want to be left in the woods. And sometimes, you know, we had no water until we got to our destination. So it's like, that was a motivation to keep going. Um, and so, I would get to the destination and realize, like, wow, you know, I've hiked eight miles with a backpack on today, like, and up a mountain we did day hikes, too, and it just made you realize you're a lot more capable than you think you are, and that my hike was worth it. Bye. Sex didn't define me, my physical stature didn't define me, um, and so all these things like, it made me question, right? Like, when I had thoughts about self limiting beliefs, it made me question them and wonder, okay, but if I try, maybe, you know, it'll change. that. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, all, and a lot of the things that we did, I think it made me want to try new things. even hard things because, you know, like I said, rock climbing is not easy. Backpacking is not easy. And you kind of, you have that track record and you're realized, well, I've done hard things before. I think maybe I'll try this new hard thing and see where it takes me. Maybe I'll surprise myself. My wife is four foot 11. Uh, so she's a shorty as well. Um, and like running, like I can run way faster backwards than she can run forwards physically. Like she just doesn't have that. But she's a tractor. Like, we've gone on 5, 7, 10 mile backpacking hikes and things like that with her carrying 30 or 40 pounds and me carrying maybe 10 more. But I'm nearly twice as big. And, uh, she can just hike. Yeah. She's like a Sherpa. Something like that, yeah. That's probably more of a compliment than tractor. But as long as she's slow and steady, she can just, and she keeps the same pace as me. When we're hiking, carrying a load. So, anyway, for what it's worth, hi Jill. Hope you listened to this one. She didn't listen to very many of them. Um, yeah, so, like, right, you can surprise yourself. And, um, yeah, so it's good to not limit yourself unless, until you've even tried it, right? And that, you should open that door. Something from my book that I tell people is that fear is not a stop sign. So a lot of times, right? Like, like going back to the rock climbing, it's like, Oh, that seems scary. I don't even want to try it. I mean, or I'm going to like not continue. And so I say fear is a yield sign. So there's something that your mind, your body is telling you like, Hey, well on the surface rock climbing does seem dangerous, but then when you calculate like all the safety protocols and equipment, then you're, then you can like rationalize, like it is safe. Right. It's actually, and then one of the things my dad raised us on is, you know, Um, riding in a car is one of the most dangerous things you'll ever do in a day. So all the crazy things and outdoor, uh, outdoor adventures, things we did, like rock climbing and whitewater rafting and backpacking, like didn't seem so dangerous to go hiking. Yeah, exactly. Based on statistics. And so that also like was something in my head. Um, and so, right, so that was, so it's a yield sign, so stop and think, but continue forward unless it actually is a physical danger to your life. the three simple steps? No, it's not. So the three simple steps, um, so I kind of, confidence had been on my mind, I don't know why, but I just, um, Like internalize it. I mean, I wasn't like talking to my parents and friends about confidence But it's just something that I realized like that desire one of your superpowers. Yeah. Yeah Exactly. It's like I'm willing to try new things put myself out there get out of my comfort zone Um, also just, you know, believing in myself. I feel like in junior high, um, you see some people making kind of poor decisions because they don't have great self esteem and they don't have a lot of confidence. So I noticed that. And then, um, you know, and then in high school in sports and then people with their desire, like am I going to, you know, Try to go to this big university or this university out of state, right? I feel like sometimes applying for colleges like says a lot about your confidence because you may have all the credentials, but then you're like, Oh, but I don't belong there. Or I'm too scared to move out of state or I don't want to go somewhere where my friends aren't going. Right. You know, where I grew up in rural North Dakota. Um, I was sure, even though I was like one of the smartest kids in my classes in, when it was a high school of 50, 60 kids, I was sure when I went to college at North Dakota State that I was going to be way dumber than all those city kids and stuff that were going to be there. I just, just the culture I grew up in. Yeah. And. You thought small town versus big city. Kinda, yeah. And it took me a couple years almost before I was like, oh, I was wrong. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and so I just, I was kind of an observer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, um. I graduated college, and I wanted to volunteer. I've always volunteered in, you know, in college. It was in campus activities, things, and I was part of the, I did, I did leadership for Collins, but before that I did leadership for Oklahoma City, and before that I did, I did loyal programs called Linking Oklahoma City's Young Adult Leaders, and I was in the, Inaugural class, and so it was a retention tool, right, against brain drain. So I was in this inaugural class and we had a guest speaker, and I wish I remembered his name, but he gave me some life changing advice. He said, instead of volunteering randomly at one organization to another, he said, stop and reflect on what's important to you, what you're interested in, and how you may want to make an impact in the world. And then pick a non profit organization that matches that. So I went through that exercise and I decided, I really like children, working with children. I didn't have children then, it was right after college. I really like the outdoors, and helping other people build confidence is important to me. And having, you know, adventurous experience is important to me. And I did my research and, Guess what I came across? Girl Scouts. Fit my criteria. And he said, oh, and he said, and you see yourself volunteering there long term. So, um, I was not a Girl Scout growing up, so I did not even have that tie. Well, you basically were, though. I know. You were backpacking and cross country skiing. I did a lot of those things, but I didn't sell cookies and I didn't earn patches and badges, which I totally would have loved. for the cookies, by the way. You're welcome. And so, um, yeah. And so I picked Girl Scouts. And it worked out because I was volunteering with them for 15 years, right? Troop leader, board member, executive committee board member, board chair. And so, um, It was life changing advice, and it just goes to show, you know, like Have you gotten re involved with the Girl Scouts here in Colorado yet? Um, I'm in talks with them to do a workshop, either for their adult volunteers or their girls on creating unlimited confidence. Yeah, so I'm not volunteering with them yet, but kind of like just taking a pause. Well, you're kind of re establishing your business in a new town and all that kind of stuff, so you get a pass on that. Um What were the three simple steps, by the way? So the first one is create clarity. So that one is really understanding who you are, what's important to you. The self reflection, like what are your core values? Do you have a personal mission statement? So that's your guiding light because in the world there's, right. There's always people have an opinion, like, Oh, you should be doing this. You should be trying this. You should like, if you just listen to opinions, like you would be all over the place and you wouldn't know what to do because they're, you know, Conflicting all the time. So once you're centered and grounded and understanding who you are and what's important to you, then you can create confidence that you can make decisions and do things because You want to, that's, you know, what's important to you and you're not always, um, shifting with the winds of change and what opinion and things like that. Keep your pointer on what you're trying to achieve. Right. Right. So, I feel like a lot, so I do that, I learned a lot about myself through journaling. I mean, that's one of the best ways To kind of understand who you are and what's important to you. Cause as you're writing kind of reveals itself, like if you're writing about it, it probably is important to you. Yeah. If you're angry about something, well, what was it about that that made you so angry is probably cause it was important to you. So I feel like there's a lot of people who miss out on what's important to you. Um, and so that is foundational. That's why it was step one. So the second one is create self trust. So that's actually how I define confidence is. Self trust because other people there's different ways to do it, but to me When you trust yourself, right? Um, you believe in who you are and your abilities, and even if, that doesn't mean you know you'll be successful, but you trust that, um, I'm going to learn from my mistakes and I'm going to be able to move forward, or I can figure out the answers as I go, or I can talk to people who have done it and figure out the answers as I go. But, um, there's different ways to create self trust, but, um, But keeping your word to yourself, keeping your promises to yourself is a huge one. Because it's hard to have confidence if you say you're going to do something and then you don't do it. Constantly don't do it. Exactly. One of my past podcast guests was Richard Fagerlin, who wrote the book Trustology. And one of the things that I've carried around with me since that conversation was his assertion, if you will, that trust could not be earned, it can only be granted. Uh, so if confidence is self trust. Uh, you can only give yourself trust, not earn it really, which I suppose that's contrary almost to your premise. Yeah. Well, um, to But if you trust yourself, I mean, you're the one that can do that, then you better just perform. Right. Live up to that trust. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I feel like, yeah, it's both, because ultimately, like, you have to, you can't just say I trust myself. Right. I mean, so to me it has to really be this, like, thing of, like, I'm not sure it works with the self trust model. Um, but, yeah, so creating self trust is important because, um, Right. So keeping your word, but then also like I talked about earlier have coming up with the things the difficult things You've done in the past built self trust because you may forget like someone were like, oh, yeah I overcame that speech impediment as a child and that was a huge accomplishment and so it gave her more self trust knowing like Wow, if I can do that, which she had forgotten about, she hadn't thought about it very much, it's like, Oh, I can take that, um, self trust and put it into something else, right? In this new job that she had that she had switched careers. And so something as simple as that, um, can really build your self trust. And then the third step is create to create confidence. And that's the take action piece. So a lot of people think they need to have confidence in order to take action, but you actually take action to create confidence. And so I use the word create because in our society, there's a lot around it. Consuming things to become confident, right? Like drink this You know health shake and you'll you'll have confidence or buy these clothes and makeup. Or watch Andrew Tate videos Yeah, you know buy Pelotons, spend all this money. You'll have confidence like so many Uh, things are, uh, marketed to us for confidence and sex appeal and, but it's all about consuming. Even my book, if you just consumed it and read it and did nothing with it, you're not going to have confidence because you have to take action, you have to create something, an experience, something new, you know, to move forward and, um, create that confidence. It's created by action ultimately. That's one of the things I was going to ask you about in that, um, build self trust and that confidence. One thing I've seen. Some in millennials, but maybe even more in Gen Z is they've got confidence without foundations. They're like, pay me 40, 000 a year, I got a whatever, an accounting degree, or not even that, right? And they think they have earned all this, it's entitlement mentality, a little bit. A little bit, yeah. I think, I think, so I do think as you get older through life experiences, you do, um, get wiser and then you can, it's easier to grow in confidence because when you're young, you can be told things, but if you haven't lived in experience it, then you're just right. It's just knowledge and not firsthand experience. Yeah. So I think with them, Yes, they may, with that generation, feel that way, but I think as they move into the workplace and no one's paying them that amount of money for no experience, then they're, it's kind of a reality check, like, Oh, okay. Well, I like that your book is a call to action regardless. Yes, yeah. You know, you gotta take the creation effort. Exactly. Um, and so my book is filled with all of these, um, I call it time to climb activities. And so, ways small ways to put into action to get you out of your comfort zone and creating confidence for yourself. Because that's the promise I have is that if you learn to create confidence for yourself, no one can take it away. Right. And so you can maintain a high level of confidence over time. Even if, let's say you start a new job and your confidence dips, which is totally natural. None of us are like a hundred percent confident all the time. Even if it takes a dip, cause you're in a new environment, new people, right? I mean, a normal person would have a dip in confidence, but then you're not going to stay down low because you're going to find ways to get yourself. Yeah, find ways to learn, find ways to grow in this new career path. Exactly. And so when you have, you know, negative self talk that says like, oh, I'm never going to figure this out. This is just a job. Too hard. Then you go back to some of the exercise and like, let me make a list of the five difficult things I've already done, or let me make a list or, or set a coffee date of people I know who have been successful in this area that I can get some advice and wisdom so I don't have to recreate something from scratch. Um, and so I think that what I'm trying to get people unstuck. So if they're just like stuck and they're like, oh, well I can't do this, or I don't know if I, should I get them moving right. Is the book. Like, even a driver for your business kind of adjacent? Yeah, yeah. You're hoping that people will read your book and be like, Oh, that gal is so awesome. Call her about some consulting. Yeah, so I do executive coaching. So, it falls under a coaching piece. Um, I'm a speaker, so I speak on it. And then, um, I can train on it. Um, so right now in my target audiences are young professionals in the workplace who are, who are new, who, um, right. Like when it comes to public speaking, even or speaking up in a room of people who are older, more experienced, like having that confidence to show up authentically. Um, and so, but giving them the mindset that it's, you know, You don't have to, you're not, you don't have to be born confident. You don't have to wait till someone compliments you or praises you to feel confident. Like, you can do this for yourself, right? And so, if you, I mean, if you have that at a young age, I mean, that can carry you. Right. Do you, right? It's better to have it as young as possible and have that for the rest of your life. Um, but yeah, it's, confidence though isn't cockiness or, you know. Yeah, Self trust. And so we, um, people may appear confident, but really inside they're faking it. Um, and so you don't want that either, where you're just always like looking confident, but you're always like second guessing yourself and, you know, have imposter syndrome. So that's, like I said, is the promise is helping people have that for themselves. I like it. I like it. So they can have their own confidence superpower and model it for others. Cool. Like, did you kind of, starting at nine or whatever and beyond there, you just kind of were always confidence, or did somebody turn that switch, help you turn that switch? Yeah, so, with my father and the experiences he gave my siblings and I, the outdoor program, Experiences I think helped me set the foundation for my personal abilities and the confidence in that but like most people You know, I I questioned like my physical appearance So I always had small boobs and so that was like written I write about that in my book like being flat chested and being teased about that and you know how that you know lowered my self esteem and made me really self conscious and actually You It became a self conscious thing until in my 20s when I became a runner, and I was like, you know what? Running long distance. Nice, nice lugging those big jugs around. Yeah, and then I would hear people are complaining about back problems because, you know, their breasts are bigger. And I'm like, I was like, learned to appreciate it more. I was like, okay, this is actually a good thing for running. I was like, okay. So that was the kind of step one. And then I became a mom and I breastfed for a year. And then I, It was like, my, this is why my breasts were invented, like, I'm actually using them for their intended purpose. Society says, yeah, society says, I'm using them to attract people, right? Or, you know, it's like, Oh, like it's a sexual objectification. And that's, I should flaunt, you know, I read a lot of this Cosmos 17 magazine. And then I was like, you know what, all those messages that were told to me. And I was like, okay. Aren't even true. Right. Like that's just marketing and selling like. These are baby feeders, damn it. Yeah, and then Yeah, and so that's actually What happened is I just was like they served their purpose and it was something that a truth that I came across for myself Because society had been telling me I've been getting a lot of different messages my whole life. Well, we were in the age of Sports Illustrated, Cover Girls and all that I know. It was really in your face at that time. Yeah. And so, and so, that, but that didn't, I didn't become a mom until 30. Right. So, the confidence in that part of my body didn't really happen until then. And then I was like, it doesn't matter. But you were a dynamo at your long time employment after college and stuff like that already. So, you were confident in spaces, but not in your body. Holistically, we'll say. Yeah. I had, yes, some forms of confidence. But, um, another story to talk about in there is, you know, dating, right? Like, um, approaching the opposite sex if you're interested in them, right? That takes confidence to talk to someone that you're interested in. And I will say in our society, men have it harder because the pressure's on them to make the first move. But I asked a guy to prom in high school and it was I had lack of confidence, but I had, and then I gained confidence by just like talking myself out of it into it, actually talking myself out of the lack of confidence saying like, Hey, what would happen if you did, you know, and what really bad is going to happen if you don't exactly. I'm like, he said, no, I'm not going with anyone. We worked together grocery store. He was a stock boy and I was a cashier and it took me two weeks. To like, there were times I'd like say, okay, I'm gonna do it today. I'd see his truck in the parking lot. I'm gonna ask him today. And then I'm like, oh, I don't want to go back there. And I was like, I wanted no witnesses, right? I was like, cause rejection, like it hurts. So I was like, and I didn't want it spreading around. He was younger than me. So like asking like a sophomore to junior prom, I was like, oh no. Um, and then a lot of labels are probably put on women like, Oh, is she slutty? Is she forward? You know, all the, like, she's asking the boy, like, she's not supposed to do that. So I feel like there's lots of that now. But back then, like, I didn't want to be labeled for, you know, being slutty because I asked the boy to prom, but that was like a real fear. I mean, things like that happen. Well, you're in, I'm imagining Oklahoma is kind of like Texas and then it's like, On the surface, at least, they're very, uh, Bible thumping and holistic and Yes, yes. Not just on the surface. Um, and so, you know, so I feel like for women a lot of our lack of confidence comes from society's messages about what we should or shouldn't do, what we should look like, right? All of those things that we just accept as common truth, but they're not. And so, I was able to talk myself into asking him because basically I was like, well, he'll never going to say yes if I don't ask. And what's the worst that could happen? And like, I will be, you know, rejected in that moment, but hopefully he won't like blab about it and he didn't. I felt like I had a good judge of character. It was like, he doesn't seem the type to be gossipy and say stuff like that. And he never told anyone. And yeah, and it was good practice, right? It was like hard, but I did it and I was like, Oh, that wasn't so bad. I'm sure it's probably like the first time a guy asks a girl like, you know, you do it again. And then I met my husband in college and I was flirting with him and he did not get it. And I had to make the first move. Because, like, he was just, like, not Oblivious. Yeah, he was oblivious. He did not think I was interested, so I had to make the first move to let him know I was interested. So I What was that move? I sat on his lap. Oh! There you go. Right, you can't really, like, not know after that. So, um, he, like, liked me, and he asked me on a date. But I feel like That was practice for making this move in this situation and being the guy I married. So I feel like I've had, I've learned from Strong people in my life, men and women. Um, strong, I've always been attracted to entrepreneurs in that, you know, they like build something from scratch and they grow it and they do all these things. So I feel like, you know, I've always, um, been inspired to be like, yeah, I've been inspired to be like that. And just realizing that if you want something to happen, you got to do it yourself kind of mentality, not wait for it to happen for you. And in that case, I was like, Oh, yeah. Well, if I like this guy, I got to make a move. And so how did you how did you find your way here? Um, to Northern Colorado from Oklahoma and we'll, we're going to jump in the time machine after this. But I want to hear about the transplant of an established business down there, right? Like you had a big network and stuff like that. Uh, yeah, I was just going off referrals cause I have been, I went to the University of Oklahoma, suburb of Oklahoma City, started my business there and I, yeah, everyone knew me. Um, it was easy to, to serve because people knew who I was and what I was all about. But, um, So, my dad, having run the summer camp in southern Colorado, I've always, like, nature has been very important to me as a child, and Oklahoma had neither mountains nor beaches, so when, we always wanted to move either to Florida for the beaches, which you just came from there, the sun and the sand, and I'm born in the Philippines, so I say I have tropical blood, like the sun and the sand, like that's my roots, but then I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, so. We would vacation here a lot too, when our kids, we started them hiking when they were like two, and camping, and so we would vacation in Colorado, so it was really between those two places. And so I had my own business, my husband was working remotely so it was like time, my kids were old enough. It was time to, it was a good time in our lives and our careers to transplant. And so we ended up deciding on Colorado because there's more variety of outdoor adventures. So right, and the beach is kind of, yeah, and there's Everglades and there's other stuff but no hills. Mostly the same. But then here in Colorado. Um, we had tried mountain biking, so we were like, Ooh, we could become mountain bikers. We were already into hiking and backpacking. We enjoyed skiing. We've picked up snowshoeing since we've moved here. Bingo. Yeah. Rafting, things like that. Exactly. Oh yeah, do whitewater rafting, rock climbing. And so, so the mindset was like, Instead of vacationing there, wouldn't it be great to live there and raise our children in this area? environment every year. Yeah, exactly. As long as I get some beach in my life, which we're going to Mexico this summer is like, this is a better like more because I'm adventurous. It's like this has a lot more outdoor adventures here. And then we So Denver was out because we're not big city people, but we didn't want to live in the rural mountains and we wanted to be within an hour of a major airport since I do travel for work. And so, um, my husband Googled best places to live in Colorado and Fort Collins is on that list. Just like that. Yep. And we visited and for a week looked at houses at the end of the week and we're driving back to Oklahoma City and the house we bought, We ended up buying like popped up on Zillow, but offers were due the next day. So we bought it. We made an offer site and seen, but except for a video tour, um, and so it all worked out and then we had sold our house and bought that house within a month. Oh wow. Yeah. So everything happens for a reason. Yeah. Thank you. How did we get acquainted? Do you remember? Uh, we met at the appreciation event put on by the city of Fort Collins. Oh, yeah, that's right. That was coincidental that your business card had that. Love to appreciate stuff all over. I know! And someone I had met, um, Suggested I go to that because they knew I was all about appreciation. I think it would be interested in this event. So did you contact city of Fort Collins after that and say, Hey, you could do this better? Yeah. I'm like, Hey, you know that event? And I went this year, so I've been twice. Like, Hey, let's step it up a notch. Yeah. Fair enough. Are you, uh, Ready to jump in the time machine and go back to Oklahoma at five years old? Well, I was in the Philippines at five years old. Oh, Philippines at five years old. Yeah, let's talk about that, actually. Um, but let's take a quick break and we'll come right back. Okay, sounds good. So, you were born in the Philippines and at least past five you were there. Tell me about the Philippines. Mm hmm. In the circumstance, I suppose. Okay, so my father is in the U. S. Navy, and he met my mother, who's Filipino. And, um, yep, it was a great, a great island life. Can you tell me, like, were you in a city? We were in a small city. Okay. Um, and so, but we were then walking distance of the beach. Um, and, uh, we had a lot of family. And we had a bigger house because my dad made U. S. dollars. Yeah, your dad was like stationed there for quite a while and whatever. So we had a maid and he would be gone for months at a time. Right, right. I have four siblings. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Older, younger? I'm the second youngest. Okay. Yes. And most are older. And, uh, we're all, we all have the same mom and, but we're all adopted by my dad. So two of us are the biological children of my father, but he adopted the other three. I see. I see. So, and we're very, very tight. Um, we don't not use the term half siblings. Right, right. We do not see each other that way. Doesn't matter. Yeah. We were raised together. We love each other. They're all, he's dad for everybody. Exactly. And, uh, we had a really comfortable life. He knows. Going to school and playing. So your mom had three little kids, right? When she met him? She was pregnant with the third. Pregnant with the third. Um, like that just sounds like a really interesting like, when you're a soldier serving in the Philippines, you're like, okay, looking for a single mom. You know? Uh, they just kind of clicked and it was just like that, or? Yeah, I actually don't know their love story, I don't, yeah, but I know he really loved her. Right. Um, but yeah, I don't know the circumstances, how they met, um, and I've heard different stories from family members, but then when they tell it, they don't really know either. Fair enough. So, yeah. Um, but. So anyway, so you were, you had living the dream there, right? Mm hmm. You got little kids, a maid, beach time. But you're a seven. Yeah, yes. And what, so can you speak Filipino? Yes, Is that your native language, or because you were raised, like, on an American base ish? It's Tagalog, and yes, I spoke it fluently, I knew a little bit of English, because they do teach it in the schools, and then when my dad was home, he would make us speak English to him, knowing we would eventually move back to the United States, um, and so he wanted us to speak English well, and, um, but then he was murdered. And it was, it's an unsolved mystery. In the Philippines? Mm hmm. Oh, wow. Mm hmm. And it was right before we were going to move to the United States anyways. Wow. So, um. And you have no idea. It wasn't your mom. Just kidding, I'm sure it's not. No, um, actually she was a suspect. Oh really? Supposedly for life insurance money. Oh my. Um, but it was never proven. And since you were going to the United States anyways, his parents came and took us five children. All the paperwork was in order. Except for just a little bit. We moved in with my great grandparents. Whoa. Who had renovated their basement already in preparation of our arrival. Whoa. And my mother stayed because she was under investigation. Oh my. Yeah. How intense. And then Well, who is this guy you were talking about that took you Camping and stuff. You're not your dad dad. Yeah, he's my adopted father. Wow. Yeah. Okay. His name's John and my but call him dad And my mom's name is Robin and they were friends of the family Okay, and when my grandparents said oh, we don't have a vehicle big enough to take them to our house like they had a 15 passenger van and they my grandparents were neighbors with my mom's And, and that's how they connected us. So they met us at the Tulsa International Airport when we landed in Oklahoma to loan us their van. They're one of the first people to meet us. They didn't have children and they let my grandfather or guardian know that they would be open to taking all of us if we couldn't be placed with family members. So I have three uncles and an aunt. So there's some shuffling around of like, maybe you'll live here, maybe you'll live here. Wow. And Um, as in most And you're second youngest, so you're seven, barely old enough to really digest most of this. Yes. How old was your oldest sibling? Uh, 17. Oh. My brother was 17, my sister was 13, and then my sister was 11, and then my brother was 4. Wow, what a fascinating arrival. Yeah. And as it is, you know, like with foster kids, it's harder to place older kids. Right, right. Yes. So, um, My two oldest siblings moved in with John and Robin first. Yeah. And then my middle sister and then my youngest brother and I. And yeah, it all worked out because, um, they were my family. And so being separated was like being, you know, like there was already the, the crisis and your mom never left the Philippines. No. And she ended up dying of cancer before she could come over. So, um, That was unfortunate, but I always focus on the positive, which is, no it's okay, which is, my siblings and I, all five of us, were raised together, and I swear that is why we don't have, like, issues. Right? When you think of, like, the trauma that happened as a kid, you're like, I think we were, we stabilized because we had great adopted parents, and then we stayed, uh, As a family unit together. Yeah. Cause I, I mean, if I think back, I really think I would have been like, you know, traumatized even more just being separated. And so, um, my oldest sister was kind of like a surrogate mother. Right. Like she would bathe us and fix our hair, you know. So there was like that continuity. Yeah. Um. How old were John and Robyn when they adopted you? Uh, I think like early 30s. And they didn't have children otherwise. They didn't have children otherwise. They just took the whole kit. Yes, but they had this big house and it was right across from Phillips University in Enid, Oklahoma, and they were constantly taking in exchange students. Oh, they'd meet people who had like no place to live and they'd be like, come on in, we have a spare bedroom. That was just the kind of people they are. And so they were used to people like coming and going and you know, they were just very open with their home and their hearts and my dad always wanted to have kids, but then my mom like didn't want to have kids of her own. So she was open to adoption and and Thankfully she was open to five Right. How cool. And can you believe it? I had my own bedroom. That's awesome. Some of my siblings had to share, but I actually really enjoyed having my own bedroom though, so thankfully. Yeah, they had this house they renovated and um, it was a great place to grow up. Um, so And what kind of a kid were you like. I mean, you arrived with modest English skills, probably. Yes. Um, and all your siblings, too. Yep. And, like, did you adapt quickly? Pick up English quickly? Did you get good grades right away? Well, not right away, and my grandpa tells a story that it's because they put us in the class with a Spanish speaking kid. Oh, right. Well, they don't speak English, so put them over here. Yeah, they're brown. Put them Spanish speaking class. So we were like doing horribly and then he realized what happened. He probably didn't even realize, like the school administrator was like, I don't know any English, so put him in the Brown kids class. And then, so they put us in, you know, the English speaking class and, um, the young, so my, um, sister who's two years older, she and I picked up English the fastest, right? So, and, uh, And then my brother was four. So, I mean, he's learning and all, but I think it's interesting. So like we, um, my brother's too young to, um, remember much. And so he doesn't even remember speaking Tagalog, but my sister and I were fluent and we came here at seven and nine and we assimilated so well, we actually lost Tagalog and we have no accents. And then my two oldest siblings speak with an accent and they, um, Yeah. And they can still speak Tagalog. I would say your accent is Oklahoma. You think so? I have a twang? I don't know about that. A little bit. A little bit. And so, that, you know, it's kind of a pro and con, because I feel like I lost a language, which, you know, it's tied to my roots, which is a huge loss, but at the same time, it did make life easier, assimilating so well. And so, we all did, the younger we were, did better in school. It was harder for my oldest siblings. Yeah, yeah. to learn a language, right? You know, as you're older. Um, and so yeah, we assimilated really well to the fact that we lost the language. So, right. And you had all these adventures where your oldest siblings along on some of these adventures and things like that too. So really a cohesive unit. Yes, my oldest siblings would carry a lot of my stuff on my early backpacking trips. When you were still a 70 pounder, you needed a little help. When all I could carry was like a seeping bag and a water bottle. Or a canteen back in the day. Right. Um, so talk to me about like, uh, going off to college. Or did you, or what was your path? What high school years kind of, did you have decisions? Uh. Yeah, um, I looked at different, like I looked at University of Texas. I looked at Duke University. Um, my best friend was definitely going to OU and if I stayed in Oklahoma, OU, University of Oklahoma is definitely my choice. And I was already thinking that and then I went on a campus visit. My brother was attending and he, Um, you know, took me on a tour, I got to see his frat house. So another story. So I have a brother that I haven't even mentioned. And his name's Ochi and he's from Mongolia. So remember I told you my parents would open up their houses. So my dad met this man at the camp and he was, he worked for this other man who is an ambassador to the United Nations from Mongolia. And he said, yes, he would really like to have his oldest son, like, get his education in the United States. Yeah, yeah. And my dad was like, oh, he could come live with us. And he asked us kids, like, would you mind if this kid lived with us? And we're like, who are we to say no? Like, sure. Whose room is he going to stay in? Yeah. And his name is Ochirhu Dorjisarang. Okay. And he, yes, he's from Mongolia, full Mongolian. And he moved in with us in sixth grade. And Yeah, has been a part of our family. He has his own parents in Mongolia. They come here to visit or he visits them, but he's also like my brother because he's been a part of one of the young men in our leadership Northern Colorado group is from Nepal and Has a not too dissimilar story where he was like an exchange student Somewhere and fell into like living with this eccentric old guy that had never had any kids And that's his American father now because he put him through the rest of his education got him his master's his PhD Yeah, and you know he owes A lot of, and he's one of the brightest, uh, professor, economist people at CSU, you know? And it's like, it changed his life in a similar way. Yeah, well, Ochi became valedictorian of our high school. Right, yeah, there's another one, right. I know. Um, so anyways, Ochi was attending OU and I did a campus visit and I was like, Wow, I belong here. Like, this is an amazing campus. How far away is this from where you were growing up? Uh, about two hours. Okay. From Enid, Oklahoma. So, far enough away. Right. But, well, you know. Easy to come home for the weekend if you want to. Yes, yes. And my roommate, best friend, and I roomed together, so that was great. And then we, uh, Did rush, but we specifically said let's not be in the same sorority because we need to branch out, right? You know, we were just like, okay, we don't need to do everything together But then our sororities ended up being next door to each other and there was a hedge in the bushes We would like go through and don't tell anyone but we would give each other codes to get into each other's house Just go to my room. I'll wait for you there Um, so it was yeah, it was I I Oh, you was one of the highlights of my life. Not just because I met my husband there. Um, the net. We won the football national championship. I was a student. I was part of the football recruitment team. Oh, wow. Um, I mostly did it for tickets to free tickets to the games and stuff. Yeah. But then you thought it was actually pretty cool. But it was really fun for like six months. And we're gonna be talking about the school spirit and you know, telling, cause basically, I mean, I was a campus leader, so just telling recruits like what a great university OU was. I didn't even have, I mean, we didn't talk football, we talked campus. Well, you're enthusiastic regardless of what you're talking about it seems like. What were you going to school for? So I picked my major when I was a junior cause I, um, it was public relations. I thought I wanted to go to broadcast journalism, but see here's a lack of confidence thing. Not have big enough boobs. No, it was my hair. Oh, okay. So I have. My hair is really short right now, but it's very curly and kind of frizzy. And I was like, I can't have frizzy hair on TV. Like no one looked like me who was on TV. Right. They always have like sleek, straightened hair, you know, we're like perfect curls. So I was like, Oh, I, so that was a lack of confidence. Like, I don't know if I could be on TV if they'd pick me. Cause I don't look like these other women. But in my dad was like, Hey. You should look into public relations. And then I like checked out a book from the library. Cause I'm a learner. Yes. I could research it. And I was like, yes, this is like, has all the similarities of journalism without actually, well, as it turns out. Yeah. Broadcast journalism hasn't been a growing career field in those years since then. Yeah. I mean, there's way less reporters. Way less TV personalities. All that there used to be. Well, and the news industry in general has shrunk. Right. It's kind of, yeah. Yeah. And they're all losing money still. Yeah. Yeah. Being replaced by awesome podcasts Yeah. Well, I'm glad you got here just the way you have it. Thank you. That's the way God made you. So, um, anyway, so I majored in journalism. I'm sorry for the boob cut. Um, that's okay. That too, right? I thought that's where you were going. I thought that's where you were going. Physical appearance is a, you know, an area of confidence. So I, it was actually, they made you journalism, uh, major in journalism, but it was an emphasis in public relations. So you had to do that. Take two years of journalism, and then you took your public relations courses, and I loved it. I thought it would start my own PR firm. Um, and then I decided I didn't want to be on call for crisis communications. Um, so I loved working in it. But, you know, because I was kind of thinking, I love what I do, but I'm also want to own my own business, but that was not the right business path for me. But I was always like on the lookout for like, yeah, you know, where, when, when did that start? Like why you weren't from an entrepreneurial family necessarily, right? No. Yeah. Um, I don't know. I think the more I just heard entrepreneurs speak as a young professional, uh, whether, if it, you know, as part of the leadership for young professionals or, Just different, you know, conferences were, you know, I remember attending a PR conference and there was a keynote speaker and he owned his own PR firm, but he would talk about how you like started that business. So that's the part I was kind of like clung onto. It's like, okay, could I do that? Um, and so it was just always in the back of my head, I think, but I really enjoyed, you know, I'm, I'm a words person and I'm a storyteller and I enjoy. working with people. And so that really fit all of that. You go right into that, um, kind of governmenty, kind of housing, affordable housing program then? Yes. So I was an intern, I had maybe six internships in college. Okay. Um, some were better than others. But that was really pushed on you to, um, get some experience, like real world experiences and variety. And so, um. I did an internship where I ended up getting a job, but it was about, I had to, it took me an extra semester to graduate because some classes were unavailable. So it was about, yeah, like nine months later after I stopped, had stopped interning and they just happened to have the job open up. I mean, there's only two people on the communications team, so it was just kind of by luck because, well, and they remembered you. Yeah. Well, and I ran into my, um, my, future boss in line at commencement because she was getting her master's degree. So, you know, it's just kind of funny how things work out. So she's like, hey, we have an opening. You should apply. Right, right. Yeah. Because I was, um, I was already thinking I would be getting my master's degree in Florida. That was kind of my next step. Were you, uh, were you already connected to your now husband? Yes, so then he started a business with his dad. It was a franchise called foot solutions. And he was starting that in Oklahoma city. So that kind of put my Florida plans on hold. We were pretty serious. And so I ended up. Applying for that job because I was going to be staying in Oklahoma City, right? And they ended up paying for my master's degree. Oh, yeah, so it all worked out there, too The foot solutions didn't work out good. Yeah. No, my husband really liked the work he did. He was a Pedorthist, so not a podiatrist, which is a good doctor, but he did custom orthotics. Actually, my PT guy told me I would really benefit from a small lift in my left foot, where my arch is not very strong. Yeah, so he did that. He wouldn't, and Analyze your gait, the shape of your foot, all these things. He had a machine too, and he would come up with a solution. So you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't have foot pain and you hopefully wouldn't have to have foot surgery, which can be very complicated. Like sometimes they go well and sometimes they make it worse. And so, and he worked with people who had diabetes, so they had to have special shoes and things like that. He enjoyed the work, was helping people, was in high demand, but then on the business side of getting reimbursed. Oh, the insurance chase. He hated it. Right. It was really hard. I can't stand it either. Yeah. It's gross. And so he, um, went into private practice where he didn't reimburse through healthcare, he like shut down the franchise, did his own private practice, um, and then he got his master's degree in, um, math and computer science, so he's a software engineer now. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. So he was one of those, you know, when you choose your major, like in the minute, like down the road, and you have life experience, like you can, you can do, like, a much more targeted pick than when you're just in high school, like, I think I'll major in this. Right, right. No, I agree with that notion as well. He loves it. Yeah, and he already had ideas about working remotely, even back then, and he was like, that's something I could do as a software engineer. Right, yeah. Wasn't wanted that way even, probably. Mm hmm. Um, I feel like we kind of came full circle, like, I'm sure there was some learning lessons and journeys from that first job, but we kind of described already the, the launch from your career into self employment years. Yes. Yes. Um. Yeah, that is full circle, isn't it? We, uh, we always talk about faith, family, and politics. Would you like to continue on with family since you're talking about this sweet guy? Yeah. What's, uh, what's his name? His name's Kevin. Kevin. Kevin Jaeger. Hi, Kevin. Kevin Jaeger. Kevin Jaeger. Yes, so I didn't drop my name. I kept my maiden name and added his. Very good. And, uh, what would Kevin say was, aside from your obvious forwardness with sitting on his lap and stuff, but what was it that actually made him ask you out a second time or a third time? Oh. His favorite things about you. Yeah. What are some? Well, he says he liked, uh, That I was feisty. Well, you're definitely that. So I think he liked that I, yeah, I was like feisty, spunky, like up for a good time, like energetic. I think he liked that vibe. Is he a high energy guy too? No, no. It's more of a contrast to himself. Yes, and actually. Keeps life interesting kind of girl. Yeah, when we got serious, people, my friends were like, You know described us as like opposites attract and we have a lot in common, but there's also like differences So yes, I was more like the social like into campus activities Sure, he was more just doing his own thing like going to the gym His life is a lot more interesting because he has you Probably I do play in all of our all I say all most of our outdoor adventures But he loves to come along for the ride. So so Did you know him before? A little bit before you sat on his lap or was it pretty much just uh, that guy's cute. I think I'm gonna go for it No, I had some classes with them or something His fraternity and my sorority did this musical as part of the OU tradition It's called University sing and it was like skits and singing and dancing and it was The pledge classes of each one would come. So our fraternity and sorority were matched. So we'd have all these rehearsals. And so I started noticing him like, Oh, he's a cute guy. And then I noticed that he was wearing gym shorts and I was like, Ooh, he's athletic. It's like, that's, I like that because I'm adventurous. So that was like a good sign. And then there were, you know, they'd have parties and invite us over and. Anyway, and he wasn't like macking on all the girls too much and whatever making a fool of himself Yeah And so he was just really sweet and funny. And you know, I thought like Rubbing his arm and laughing at everything he said would do something, but he was clueless. I was like, how many parties do I have to go to? Like, this is like, taking too long. I've been warmed up for a couple weeks now. Yeah, so I've been like, eyeing him across the room. He wasn't my dance partner. Right, right. Fair enough. Um, you have a couple of littles? How many? Yeah, I have two sons. Okay. Yeah. And how old are they and what are their names? Their names are Aiden and Axel. Okay. Mm hmm. And how old? Oh, so Aiden is 11 and Axel's 7. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, I don't know if you've listened to some of my past episodes, but we go for a one word description of the children. Mm. Okay. A lot of times. Uh, do you have a one word description for Aiden and Axel? Aiden is competitive. Okay. Axel is competitive. Adventurous. Wild. Wild. He's a wild card. How about wild card? There we go. Wild card. Like you just don't know what he's going to do. And he's into like putting himself in new situations. Yeah. He's a wild card. Sounds like a, my Schnauzer dog. Um, what, uh, what's Aiden up to? He's, uh, very competitive. Is he playing basketball or football? Yeah, he was playing basketball in the winter. Um, spring season, he's playing soccer and flag football and he, uh, flag football was not big in Oklahoma. It was all about tackle, right? I mean, it's like football country. And so it's really nice that there's a league here. It's really increased a lot here in the last maybe four or five years. Um, just because parents are like, No, I'm not going to let you have a concussion, or three. Yeah, and I've actually learned to appreciate the sport even more, because when I'm not distracted. Oh yeah, it's more dynamic in some ways. Yes, but I'm not, with all the violence and like, tackling, it's like I can appreciate the plays more, and the juking. Right, totally. And the, uh, moscow. I'm learning all these terms from my son. What's mossing? It's where you catch the ball behind someone, like they jump up to you, like you catch it. Oh, but you catch it above them. Yes, that's mossing. I like it. So, um, yeah, I see the athleticism it requires in other ways besides just being like brute force. Yeah, yeah. Tackling people. Are they, uh, small? Boys picking after their mom? Average, but yes, on the slender side. They're probably average height, but on the slender side. But yes, they're not going to be like But very determined. And huge. Yeah, so They will be centers, uh, more like wide receivers kind of thing. Yes, and yeah, that's the position they like a lot. Fair enough, fair enough. So, yeah, it's boring. So, anything else you want to say about family? I mean, what a, yeah, uh, interesting background. What? You want to say anything about, uh, John and Robin more? Um, Than you have already? Well, you're asking me, like, who do I talk to? Like, my kids? Like, my parents? Um, Well, actually, I think one thing I'll go back to when we were talking about my husband is I was saying, like, I noticed that he was wearing gym shorts, um, so part of, because this ties back to the confidence book, is I had a list of the qualities I wanted in a future husband. The clarity thing. Yes, exactly. Okay. And I think Big package was one of them. I couldn't tell that from doing this. Okay, I just asked you. They weren't windbreaker pants. I think that helps when you know the type of guy that you want, not just in physical appearance, but also in their qualities. And so when I found something, someone who like fit a lot of the criteria, it made it easier for me to make the move. Right. It wasn't just like some guy. I was like, okay. Like, you know, it was like in my head, I'm like mentally checking. I would say you're a very organized suspect. Yes. And, you know, you, and then some people I feel like who really don't have a type or haven't thought about it, and they're just dating all kinds, which is fine, but I think it takes you longer to find the one you're probably going to end up with, because you're kind of dating everyone. Um, that's just my personal experience, but I think it helped to create that clarity, and it gave me confidence, like I said, to make that move, because, Well, and I think if I may interrupt, and I'm sorry, but like, there's different kinds of thinkers like, like Alma and you, I suspect are very similar where like having that kind of list kind of thing is what can give you confidence to sit on somebody's lap or like she asked, she asked her now husband out when she was 16 and he was 19. Oh, wow. Right, exactly. It's a similar kind of thing. But. It was, I suspect, at least in part because she was kind of, had listed out some of the criteria of what she was looking for. For me, I'm a lot more instinctive. Like, I can have confidence, confidence, confidence. Kind of just in my gut But I'm kind of ADHD and I'm weaving together all the intuitions at all times Kind of and I just kind of operate that way if I had to sit down and make a list of 20 things I was looking for like I would procrastinate that until forever And then I just wouldn't do it. So anyway, it's different you know, what works for you, right? So there's clarity there for sure Yeah. No, I'm kind of best when, like if I'm, if I, I do a lot of volunteer emceeing, and if there's a really tight script that I really got to read along with the script, it's hard for me. If it's a loose script with bullet points and things like that, and I have a little bit more free flowing, well then I can just tie in and just feel a lot more comfortable. Uh, whereas some people, you know, an outline. It's not a script. Like, don't give me that. I'm not prepared. That's a good point. Yeah. I have to memorize this. So it really depends on the personality, I think. Anyway, I digress. That's a good point. Um, so, more you want to talk about, uh, with, uh, Kevin? Um, yeah, with my, um, no, let's just switch to, yeah, my adopted parents. Um, they, they were great role models for me. My mother ran triathlons. Oh, wow. And so just seeing, you know, that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, In those days, it was probably much more rare. Mm hmm. I think so, yes. I suspect, you know, I never really heard about that. Yeah. I mean, what's his name, David Jenner and those kind of guys way back in the day. Not that you're as old as I am. But yes, um, But a big inspiration. Uh, and so she was modeling kind of like healthy behaviors and having a hobby and a passion that even when you're a busy mom that you make time for. Yeah. Um, and so, and she made us eat healthy. I feel like that has really helped. It's a big part of who I am. For sure. Part some in my health habits that I've developed like we only had pop in the house whenever we had birthday parties So yeah, but they also at the same time didn't speak about the evils of pop because that would just make us want it more Right, right. So they weren't like pop is bad. That's why we don't have it. They just was like we just didn't buy it Yeah, so if you're thirsty, there's milk. There's orange juice and there's water You know, um, and then my dad he um You Always led, um, outdoor, like, trips, um, like I, I've mentioned, but he was also our youth group leader and our youth choir director. So, man, we spent a lot of time with him. Not just as our dad, but in a lot of the activities. Right, super engaged all the time. Yes, yes, and, um, and see, that's why it worked out, um, with the five, with the five children, because he was already doing stuff with youth groups. So, I mean, it was just like, he, like, wanted, you know, his own kids and, nice. As, in his family, because he's always, um, loved being around children and mentoring them. Yeah, yeah. Taking them on really cool experiences. Have you stated any kind of connection, or otherwise, with your Biological dad's family? Yes. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yep. Um, like Christmas cards, you know, they came to my wedding. I have an uncle, um, right outside of Castle Rock that I meet up with every now and then. Yeah. And my cousin lives in Johnstown. So yes. Um, even though we were adopted, we always like visited different family members for sure. How about, um, have you ever been to Philippines and will you ever yes, I went back 20 years later. So it's 27 years old and okay Kevin went with me and We visited family for a week reconnected with some cousins and my aunt and she gave some photo albums Oh, yeah, and some personal items from my parents. Sure. So I Took that back and shared it with my siblings and that was really great because we left in a hurry and didn't have a lot of stuff. Right, right. And, um, and then we scuba dived for a week. Oh, cool. On the Palawan Islands and got our open water certification and advanced open water certification and that was really cool. So if you don't know, the Philippines is a top 10 destination for scuba diving because there's sunken World War II ships off the coast. Oh, right. Some are narrow, or narrow, some are shallow, and some are very deep. Okay. And so for one of them, that's how we got her. Deep dive. Deep water certification. Yeah, certification is that. Interesting. And then our, we just, it was just the two of us with our one instructor. And he said, I'm not supposed to do this because you haven't been cave certified. But he took us inside one of the ships. Whoa. He's like, I, you know, he'd been. Right. I've been diving in it for days, yeah, and he could just tell, like, we're cool and aren't gonna freak out in an enclosed space. Right, right. And so he took us inside and that was pretty cool. I bet. Yeah. I bet. Do you still scuba dive regularly? No. Not so much? But I wanna, like, I've forgotten everything. I would have to re Go get re certified. But it's funny, even after we got our advanced open water certification, I was like, there is no hell I would do this on my own. Right. I mean, there's just, like, Too much to remember, too much to go wrong, and I was like, no, I will always have an instructor with me. And, funny story, when on one of our dives, um, we were at the safety stop. Do you scuba dive? I've snorkeled some, but never scuba dived. Well, if you go deep enough, you have to just hang out kind of near the top. Right, before you can get the bends. Yes, exactly. So we're at the safety stop and there happened to be a rope from our boat going down to one of the ships just as a guide. And so we're just hanging out and I'm looking at all the fish and we get on the boat and Kevin was like I ran out of air. I was like, what? What was I doing? How did I not know this but you train for situations like this? So his spg that tells you how much air you have left in your tank It said he had air but he's sucking on his mouthpiece and like there was no air So he said like he um You know, pointed at it and to our instructor saying like, there's no air. And he looked at it and he was like, there's air. And then he said like, I can't breathe. But then he, my instructor said once he saw my Kevin's eyes bulge, he knew there was no air And so what did they do? So they have a second, the instructor has a second mouthpiece, and we had practiced that. Just this situation. And so Kevin took the second mouthpiece and all was well. And so he handled it like a pro, like something went wrong. He, he did what he was supposed to do. And here I was in La La Land looking all the fish, did not even know this crisis was going on around me, but things like that can happen. Oh yeah. And I don't want to be just me and Kevin. And we're, I mean, 20 feet away is almost too far away in the water. You're like, yeah, my wife and I went to Hawaii for our 20th, This last May, and when we were in Lanai, we went snorkeling and as we're snorkeling, Jill like waved over to me and said, Hey, there's a dollar bill on the ocean floor here. And I was like, cool. And I had just learned how to dive snorkeling, which is kind of hard to get below the surface, but, but I managed to do it. And then I swam like, 12 feet down to the ocean floor, got the dollar bill, came up victoriously to the surface, and Jill was 40 yards away, looking at other fish, and I was like, baby, I got the dollar! Be proud of me! That's right, yeah. Anyway, I digress. Yeah. Good for you, 12 feet is a deep dive. It was hard. Like, I was pushing to get down there, but I had a dollar at the end of that journey. We know it motivates you. I needed something. Um, so that was fun. family. I think we covered that pretty good. Do you want to talk about faith or politics? Um, sure. It depends. Where do you want to start? I, you know, I, I use faith because it's kind of a generalized term. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in the church. Um, one of my role models, role models, we had a female pastor. And so just even then as a young girl, yes, I was like, this is not common in Oklahoma. There are churches that forbid that. So, um, You know, that was just great to grow up in that environment. And I mentioned my dad was the Youth Choir Director and the Youth, um, Youth Group Director. So And the, and the camp was also, was it church associated too, the Um, well Loosely. Loosely, yeah. Fair. Because Phillips University, it was their science camp and they had a theological seminary. So yeah, it was loosely, but it was mostly a science camp. And, um, So, and it was right across the street from our house, I mean, we were like there back and forth all the time. Right. Sunday school, my dad had his seminary degree, but he didn't become a pastor of his own church until high school. So, I think it's funny, and I watched the movie Footloose, but I was like, Oh yeah, I never thought of myself as a preacher's daughter. But kinda. Yeah. But my dad was not your average pastor. Like he was like, we didn't even have curfew. I mean, we had, you know, like we got in trouble if things happen, but he wasn't a big rules person and anyway, exactly. Yeah. You make your own decisions and stand with the consequences. We didn't even, Locker house doors. My parents were like if someone wants to break in they'll just break a window. So they're gonna get in anyway I'm just you can kind of picture my parents five kids around But then, you know, my oldest brother was 17 so he kind of moved out like pretty soon after So, um, anyway, so the church has been a huge part of my life. I'm baptized. Um, I will say as an adult, I feel closest to, I am not a regular church go anymore. I feel closest to God when I'm in nature, like backpacking, like not just car camping, but like really deep woods, like under the stars. There's like no civilization. I feel like I can feel his presence the most. And secondly, when I volunteer. So I feel like I am connected in those two ways, through nature and giving back to others and serving others. What do you do, like, with the person of Christ? Like, would you consider yourself a Christian still? What do you think about Jesus? Um, yes, but more loosely than when I was growing up. Yeah, fair. You still think he's cool? Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yes. And your kids are kind of approaching that age where they're going to want to know more too or not? Yeah. Like, do you have them involved in any of those kind of young, youth activities or things like that? Not currently. And, you know, we address their questions and they ask, but they actually haven't asked a lot. No strong expression. Yeah. Well, culturally it's not, I mean, it's pretty uncommon, almost, anymore, it seems like, to have kids that are very engaged with their church. Mm hmm. Well, and when we moved to Fort Collins, there's not a church on every corner, like it is in Oklahoma. Yeah, there's still a lot of them, though. There's a lot, but it's, um, less Not the same. Yeah. There's not the same cultural expectation. Yes. Yes. Like, if you're, if you're applying for a board of directors role, um, In Fort Collins, nobody cares if you go to church or what church you go to. Exactly. It would be a different story probably in Texas or Oklahoma. It is a huge part of, um, people's, like, social identity and social belonging. Well, it's status, uh, establishment, interestingly, I've been listening recently to a podcast about that, like, in the old days, you know, even when your dad, or your adopted dad was in there, like, your status was somewhat established by how old Good of a Christian you were. Yes, that is true. And like in Fort Collins here, it's maybe a little bit more established on, you know, how innovative you are, how knowledgeable you are about beer culture, how strong your mountain biking game is, like status is definitely not established in the same way 30 years later, 40 years later as it was. Yeah. In that regard. Well, in running for office. Right. In Oklahoma, like, Yeah, you definitely couldn't if you were part of a strong church. Yeah, church are you affiliated with, because that's a huge part of your numbers. Totally, totally. Um, and so, I'm, I'm new here, but I feel like that isn't. No, I don't think so. Although like the Timberline church, definitely in the Presbyterian church, definitely have a lot of influential people. So if there's like in churches, those are maybe a couple of them. I tend to prefer like very small churches that don't have much dogma or power structure. Cause I'm just like an anti power guy period. Um, and so, you know, I haven't. been in that same space, but Colorado Springs, in contrast, it was all about, like all the, all the hootie hooties, uh, were at First Prez or this other St. Joseph's or this and that. You know, there's different best stores. Churches, but here it's not, not that. But it is a thriving church community, nonetheless, and very decently interconnected and respectful of one another, if that makes sense. Um, politics. Oh, my blog post this month might be a March madness, uh, celebrating the Successful primaries of Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Who's your candidate in 2024? Um, it's Biden and, um, he's not my favorite, but he's a safe way to go. So I feel like that that's asking a lot these days. Uh, so I'm going to hold just kind of. Stay the course and, um, keep us in a good place, but he's no Obama, someone who's inspirational and more visionary. Um, but I will definitely take safe and steady over. What do you think it is about our system that would allow, uh, an obviously mentally declining person or two of them, perhaps, uh, to become the candidates? Like what's, what's wrong with the system that produces those outcomes? Cause I feel sorry for Biden, like, no offense intended, but. It's pretty obvious, like, he's, like, if he was your dad, you'd be thinking about putting him in a home. Mmm. No? My husband and I have talked about this, actually, at the dinner table. And I, I think it's a numbers game, right? If you're getting votes, you have to be, have been around a while. There's a lot of brand and name recognition. You know how it is with voting. Sure, sure. Like, it's just name recognition. Like, oh, I've heard of him or her. I'm just gonna check that. And then, also, there's, um, You're able to make coalitions and make deals with people who, right? And so you, you have to be, have been around a while to get to know those people and make those deals. And so I think that's a profession. Right, it has become one for sure. The longer you have been doing it, it's just easier for you to stay in power and, um, And you just have to, and sometimes right name recognition for good or bad is right good or bad publicity. It's a good thing. It's, um, and so people just recognize that. And yeah, I just think that it helps them because they've been in it for so long and they've been on TV. Right. I mean, like they have a long. So why do you think nobody challenged Biden? Because it seems like if they actually got up and debated and things, somebody else might have drawn the crowd's attention. I, you know, I've thought the same thing. Um, I've thought like, why isn't there some, like, someone who's made it big in tech who has money and can self fund their campaign who's younger. Why don't they run for office? Well, there was something keeping them from doing it. I think, in this session at least. I mean, it seems like it. The party is controlling the candidates too often, in my opinion. I'm a libertarian. So I voted for Kanye last election. I won't vote for Trump this time either. Is your, are you a sworn and true blue? Or do you have a strong distaste for Trump? It wouldn't matter. Like if there was a moderate, if Nikki Haley was the nominee instead of crazy orange hair guy, would you consider that? Or are you kind of. I would, yeah. Yeah. I would say, um, even though I'm a Democrat, like I'm open to more liberal, like candidates. So people who, um, are more inclusive, um, who, Um, still are fiscally, you know, responsible, but take care of different levels of society. Okay. Um, it's not just the haves. Take care of? Yeah. Like, I believe in a government support system. Okay. Right? I mean, I feel like I don't believe that, you know. The laissez faire is not gonna work for all. Yeah, exactly. Okay. But basically, um. Well, your, your life, though, is an example of people just willingly putting themselves out there, not the government telling them to. Mm hmm. That's true. And I think that people will do that more when the government does it. Um, I think it's both. I think you need both. See, I'm, I'm all about balance and I think, um, it's good to have both options because some people will never step up. Right. No, true. Yeah. And some people it doesn't matter. Um, it's their calling to do so. So yes, I've always questioned that about our system too, why there aren't, um, younger candidates, um, who obviously have great talent and experience who can bring a lot. To running our country. And right. I don't know the answer to that, but I would like to see more of them. But yes, even though I'm registered Democrat, um, I am open to other. What about the RFK? Have you investigated him at all? No, I haven't. Oh, I think I would just suggest you investigate RFK Jr. Okay. Um, you know, his Dad and his uncle were assassinated by our government, probably. They were both strong Democrats. He tried to run for the Democratic nomination, but was blackballed, basically, by the Democratic Party. Oh, really? Forced out to become an independent. But he's polling around 20%. Yeah. He's gonna be a difference maker in the election. Yeah. So, um But a lot of people just don't like to throw votes away in third party. They'd rather keep the, uh Uh, what is it? The dictatorship with two parties? The two party system. Two party dictatorship. it's, yes, outdated. Um, what are your thoughts on the Electoral College? Oh, I think it's important. If we didn't have the Electoral College, it would be ruinous to, uh, rural states. Like, uh, Oklahoma, North Dakota, because California and New York would just get to decide everything for everybody. So yeah, that, that, that electoral college needs to go because that's what got Trump elected. Like to me, Just to have a better candidate than fucking Hillary Clinton. I'm sorry. I really wanted somebody I would love to see a woman president and it needs to be somebody with more character than Hillary So I'm glad that she's not but no, I think the Electoral College is crucial at this point in time in my perception because a popular vote would it would go Democrat for from now on and Look at how the Democratic cities are going like they're all kind of cesspools and it wouldn't take that long I'm not saying I'm, I'm a Republican either, but it's, so the, the, the way I like to describe politics in a way is that, so there's like the conservative notion and then there's, there's chaos as well. And the progressives tend to be more chaos inducing. We're going to mix it up or, you know, and you need both. Like you need boundary stretching of this kind of more progressive thing. Like, you know, like, You know, for example, like, should gays be able to marry or at least have the civil benefits of a marital union? And as far as insurance and things like that, yes, to me, clearly. Did they have to call it a, uh, uh, you know, a wedding or a marriage? Maybe they could have called it something else. I don't, I'm not, I'm not there, but that, so I'm all for people having lots of rights and things. And if one side just dominates for a long time by importing a bunch of legals or things like that, or stacking the Supreme court, getting rid of the electoral college, then it's effectively loses that. Holding on to what has got us here and then you just invite chaos, period. Well, I know like the immigration situation in Denver. Oh, it's rough. Yeah. And it's only starting. Like it'll probably be twice as bad. Like if Biden gets reelected, it'll be four times as bad in three years. Period. I mean, the U. S. has, we're 330 million people against a world population of 8 billion. And about 7 billion of those 8 billion would rather be here. It's gonna be like even with 1 percent of the world's population decides to try to come here, it's gonna fuck our whole country up, like beyond infrastructure, because it couldn't happen. So I'm nervous about it. I'm cynical about all of them, uh, frankly. It's hard not to be cynical, I will say. For sure. Yeah. Um, let's talk about your loco experience, the craziest experience of your lifetime that you're willing to share with our listeners. Okay, so I have done a lot of like, adventurous things in my life. Like I said, some people would think they're crazy, but I don't think they're crazy. But I did do something in college that It's so against my normal judgment and nature. Okay. So I had Where this is going. I had some guy friends, and early in the week they're like, Hey Diana, we're going skydiving this weekend. You wanna come? And being that adventurous person, I'm like, Sure. But see, I had not researched, like, where this place was, what exactly we were doing. What's the thing that keeps me from dying? Yes! Like, have they had accidents? Like, what's their story? Like, all that stuff, you know, like, are they, um, certified even to begin with? I don't know. Maybe they just found some guy. Yeah, is this your buddy, Joe? Yeah. So I just was like, okay. And we get there and we're in this like three or four hour training. And I was like, you know, so there's two types of bungee jumping. There's tandem, where you just ride on like the back of someone and they, yeah, skydiving, sorry. And you free fall, and they do all the work, they do all the landing, yes. So we, they had signed up for the type where you have a rip cord, so you jump out of the plane on your own. And then the rip cord automatically pulls your chute for you. Once you get, It's got like a line that pulls it out of, but we were trained because one, you have to exit the plane safely, right? Right. You have to do like the special like move, right? So don't want to bump into the exactly and then you have to steer yourself to this This is Like, it's all on you. And they're like, you need to land in this field. And then there's like power lines. And I'm like, excuse me. You have to figure out with no training how to actually make yourself go north when the wind is a little bit southbound. Yeah, so they gave us some. Training tips, but this is only a three or four hour training and then I'm like, okay, they're like, okay Avoid the power lines at all costs. I'm like, um, what would happen if you had a power line? Oh, you'd probably die Oh my gosh Like this is not what I signed up for Like i'm literally like in charge of my life and I have to land in this field and avoid power lines because that's certain death And it was it was very scary And then just like doing the training I'm like, okay, you know, I never thought like, hey, you can just back out. I don't know. I guess that was never a thought. Somebody paid a bunch of money for this thing I guess. But I was like, I just gotta do this really well. Like, train well. And then they also had to train you. Take really good notes. They train you how to land because you don't want to break your knees. Right, right, right. You lock your legs out. Then you're like, okay, now I If I survive So it's like trying to take a golf swing. You're like, okay, just remember these 96 things about elbow straight, rotate the hip Yes! Freakin So if I don't die in a power line, I still gotta avoid breaking my legs, so you have to like, you know, roll a certain way. So, um, anyway, and they're, they're like describing the experience, and you're just like, taking it all in. It's like drinking from a fire hose. You're just like, okay, just stay alive, not break my knees. So, um. Anyway, so we get up in this tiny plane and there's like four of you, it was two friends, my best friend was there as moral support and Kevin was there as moral support. So they were just watching. Kevin's like, you're crazy, but he doesn't like heights. So he was like, I will watch you. I think he was kind of scared for me. He wanted to make sure I was okay, but there was nothing he could do. I had to make sure I was okay. Cause no one else was there to help. So, um, It was funny though, but my friends, they were scared to jump out of the plane. Like, it's a scary experience because you're like, right, everything is saying fear stop sign. Don't do it. Um, so like they go, I'm last because you have to like squeeze yourself in the plane and I could fit in the tail cargo in the back. So I'm last, um, I make my exit and, um, Which actually was perfect. It turned out, so if you had, I had a perfect exit, which means I could go up to the next level of training if I wanted to, but I did not want to one and done so Yeah. I was like, this is crazy. I'm doing, I could do tandem. I will never do that again. So I, it's not, I'm not like you could take, somebody else would be, oh, you would go with somebody Tand. I would with someone else. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Fair. Yeah. So then you know the, I am floating with my parachute and it's Oklahoma, and when you don't have anything on the horizon. Right. You can't tell you're falling. Where exactly am I going? You can't tell you're falling. It's boring. Oh, right. I'm free falling, but I can't tell, and I'm like, la la la, this is not the adventure adrenaline rush I was expecting. It was. But the exciting part was like. Exciting. But the part that was like, okay, I gotta pay attention. I gotta land in that field. Well, I ended up landing in the field next to it. So I didn't hit my mark. Um, and then, so it's boring, boring, boring until the last, I don't know, 50 feet or something. And then you see the ground rising to meet you. Rushing up at you very quickly. Yes, very quickly. And then you're like, I got a roll. So I kind of did the roll and it was in an ant pile and I'm like getting bitten, but I didn't break my legs and I will never do that again where I'm jumping out of the plane myself for skydiving. You kind of made me want to skydive. Like, I've never really wanted to. It seems freaky, but you explaining it in so much detail makes me kind of want to try it. Oh my gosh, like I said, it went against all my likes. See, I'm adventurous, but I try to take, like, You have a strong sense of self preservation. Exactly, and I want to do it in a safe way, you know, and Girl Scouts is saying safety first. And so, um, I didn't, yeah, it was kind of like the place was kind of just like this warehouse in the middle of nowhere. I really don't think it was a safe place. Like, they might not have had insurance. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think they weren't. And um, so that was my loco experience. I like it. And I survived. Thank goodness. Good job. To tell the tale. I'm glad you're here. Um, if somebody wants to buy a copy of Let Go of the Rope or to reach out to you, what's your best, uh, contact points? Okay, so my, uh, the book's available on Amazon as an e book or a print. So that's easy. Um, and then, uh, My website is love to appreciate consulting and they can reach out to me there. Love with a TO. Appreciate. Yes. Okay. Love to, yeah, appreciation. Love to appreciate.com. Okay. Sorry, did I say consulting? Yes. Um, so love to appreciate.com and they can, yeah, my contact info's there, so if they're interested in culture design or leadership training or coaching, they can find me there. Awesome. Well thanks for being here. I hope you had fun. Yeah, thanks for interviewing. All right. See you next time.
